Getting honors classes in high school against recommendation

[goofy4tink]

Okay..our school system it a top ranked system. Huge percentage, about 98%, go on to college after high school. I have three kids....36, 33, and 16...all attended the same school (as did my dh and myself but at much different times). Honors classes, at least in our high school, are tough. There is a lot that is expected of these kids. My two older kids never got into an honors or AP class, not one. This year my 16 y/o has been recommended for honors English. And she will take that.
BUT....there are a lot of kids, in the school, that are being pushed by their guidance counselors, to take honors or AP classes. One young man I know of, excells in just about everything he does. His counselor recommended that he take AP Chemistry. He refused, saying that there were other things he wanted to concentrate on, and that he wasn't going into the sciences in college so wasn't interested in AP or honors classes outside his area of interest. His counselor wasn't happy. But, do you want to know why? Simply because the more students enrolled in honors and AP classes, the better the school looks.

If you think your child can handle an honors class then speak to the guidance people. Talk to the teachers your child has now, that would make the recommendation. It is not a common occurance to have a teacher not recommend a child when the child is capable of doing the work. There is usually some reason the child wasn't recommended, and it could well be a reason the parent is not aware of.

There is a huge transition from 8th grade to high school. It would be too bad to put too much pressure on a student so that they were almost doomed to failure because they had too much on their plate to succeed.

 

[punkin]

Not to bash teachers (my girls have had some wonderful ones over the years) but, if a middle school teacher has over 30 kids per class and teaches 5 periods per day, how well do you think he knows your child? A teacher recommendation is usually based on nothing more than grades. It has to be given the enormous amounts of student each teacher is responsible for. Your child's particular temperament, study habits, and potential are not taken into account. That's where you as the parent come in. If you and your child feel she can handle the honor's work, I would go ahead and try it. If you feel despite a teacher rec that your child isn't ready, insist on regular classes.

 

[rgf207]

Not to bash teachers (my girls have had some wonderful ones over the years) but, if a middle school teacher has over 30 kids per class and teaches 5 periods per day, how well do you think he knows your child? A teacher recommendation is usually based on nothing more than grades. It has to be given the enormous amounts of student each teacher is responsible for. Your child's particular temperament, study habits, and potential are not taken into account. That's where you as the parent come in. If you and your child feel she can handle the honor's work, I would go ahead and try it. If you feel despite a teacher rec that your child isn't ready, insist on regular classes.

but don't you think that grades play a huge part. If a child isn't getting A's in regular math, what makes you think they will get A's in honors.

 

[punkin]

but don't you think that grades play a huge part. If a child isn't getting A's in regular math, what makes you think they will get A's in honors.

Grades play a part but not a HUGE part. I have a child who did not get consistent As in regular classes but did get As in honors and APs. I have no idea why. In fact, the harder her classes were, the better she did in them. Go figure.

Grades measure past achievement, they do not measure a child's potential at all.

 

[bluesaturn]

If you think she can handle the class, and she wants to be in the class, then do what you can to get her in. Make sure she's involved in the process, and watches how you deal with it. In college no one will be watching over her and making sure she gets all the opportunities she needs. She needs to learn to advocate for herself now, and watching you do it appropriately will be a good lesson.

Like any student, I hated homework in high school. And we had a lot. But it was one of the most important things skills I learned to prepare for college. In my honors dorm there were tons of really smart kids who barely had to study or do assignments after school hours. They got to college and were so confused because they actually had to prepare for classes on their own time. They had a much more difficult transition to college than I did.

 

[princesspumpkin]

Thanks again everyone. I so agree with a previous poster in that I can't say that the teacher recommendation is wrong, just that I don't agree with it.

I have started the process of trying to get this history class changed. I spoke with her counselor again, e-mailed her present language teacher to see what her thoughts are, and left a message for the history department head to find out what they are actually looking for in the students, to qualify for the honors class.

Unfortunately, if she is placed into an honors class and is doing poorly, they won't allow her to change to a lower class. But if she starts off very strongly in the lower class, they can move her up. Good things about her school is that there are three different levels in each academic subject, so if she isn't in honors, she would be in "accelerated" college prep, as opposed to basic college prep.

Will wait and see what unfolds

 

[agnes!]

I would check with any parents you know of current 9th graders and get their take.

That's a good idea, see what it's been like for kids who have taken the actual classes.

Our kids have taken all honors classes this year (except math) and haven't had massive amounts of homework or issues with the transition. Each school and each child is different. I know some of their friends are complaining about the "hours and hours" of homework they have but I think more of that comes from doing homework while on Facebook, texting and listening to their Ipods vs really having that much work. Our kids MAYBE have an hour a night.

Is that one hour per class per night or is that one hour *total* per night? I just asked DD about homework, school & life in general and here is what she has to say on the subject:

(From agnes!' DD)...
Not everyone who complains about hours and hours of homework is making it up. Sometimes, hours and hours of homework actually is assigned. One cannot base what everyone else says off their own experiences. It is rude to insinuate that anyone who complains about too much homework is lazy, because like you said, every school and every teacher is DIFFERENT. At my school, there are kids who are signed up for the same course, but have different teachers. In one particular case, my teacher assigned a lot of homework throughout the year. My class was going several readings a night and taking obscure fill-in-the-blank quizzes. The other classes were taking online, open-notes quizzes once-a-week. The level and workload of the two classes were at completely different levels, but the course that was on our schedules was supposed to be the same. It remained this way throughout most of the year, until we took our final. The opposite happened for me in another class. I got the teacher that doesn't assign massive amounts of homework, but the other teacher does. I talk to the kids who have the other classes, and they get hours of homework each night. I get around half an hour of homework each night. It isn't that they're sitting around listening to music and eternally chatting with friends on Facebook and texting and IMing, it's that they really do have more homework than me. I'm sure it's not at all unusual for this to happen within a school, so I have no problem believing that there are differences between schools all across the country. There are classes that will have it easier than I did, and classes that WILL have it harder. That doesn't mean that they are making it up, and being irresponsible. Sometimes, they're just being honest.

Massive amounts of homework does not mean a class is "challenging". They have appropriate amounts of homework for their grade level and they use their time wisely when doing homework. Considering our high school is one of the top in the nation according to many ranking sites, I am really not concerned and they are more than adequately prepared for college given the success of students that have graduated before them and the schools those kids have attended. Based on comments here about other schools around the nation, I am quite confident that our kids will fair better getting into college then those coming from schools that think having 2 hours/night/class is doing a good job.

I agree that massive amounts of homework in and if itself does not make a class challenging but I also think that a challenging class can have massive amounts of homework. I know because we've lived that scenario. And at first I wasn't going to post in reply to your other points but here goes...

I am glad that you are proud of your kids, glad that you are proud of your kids' schools, glad that you are proud of the state of education in Minnesota.

What I don't understand is why you historically seem to imply in your 'education' posts that educational opportunities in other states are somewhat or somehow inferior to a degree...especially high schools and community colleges. And what's funny is I agree with some of your points like the amount of homework not being a true indicator of a teacher's success in teaching a subject, BUT the way you said it! C'mon, how would you like it if I phrased a post this way (hypthetically-speaking only!)...
"I know someone who is enrolled in one of the Top Ten school systems in the country and is being heavily recruited by Ivy League/top-tier schools and has three to four hours of home work almost every single night...you people who have kids with ONLY one hour of homework? Your kids will be missing the boat for college."
NOW, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, but the attitude that drips off my pretend quoted-post above is probably fairly clear. And, in my opinion, the attitude that drips off your actual statements regarding your kids' high school experiences?...

Anyway, back to the OP...
princesspumpkin - maybe talk to some other parents & kids from the local high school who have taken the honors classes? Your DD has to be very sure that she can handle the workload. I also think punkin's DD's experience with rising to the challenge is a consideration. If much is expected of *your* student, does she have a tendency to rise to that challenge?
And about getting 'placed' in groupings... In our case, there was a GT grouping in place in the local middle school and DD was not placed in it, *yet* she took all 'honor' classes in middle school and took two high-school classes in 8th-grade, is taking multiple AP courses in high school, has at almost every turn out-achieved (grade-wise, standardized tests, etc.) most of the kids who were placed in that GT group, so getting 'placed' or 'anointed' as being in the "special-group" is not always everything it's cracked up to be.

agnes!

 

[punkin]

This is slightly OT, but why is everyone afraid of being "that" parent? I wonder if I am "that" parent because I know what a good education looks like and am active in getting it for my children. I support my childrens' teachers in any way I can. I support my children any way they need. I do not follow teachers' recommendations blindly when it comes to my children, but I recognize that they have expertise that I do not. What exactly is wrong with being "that" parent?

 

[golfgal]

That's a good idea, see what it's been like for kids who have taken the actual classes.

Is that one hour per class per night or is that one hour *total* per night? I just asked DD about homework, school & life in general and here is what she has to say on the subject:

(From agnes!' DD)...
Not everyone who complains about hours and hours of homework is making it up. Sometimes, hours and hours of homework actually is assigned. One cannot base what everyone else says off their own experiences. It is rude to insinuate that anyone who complains about too much homework is lazy, because like you said, every school and every teacher is DIFFERENT. At my school, there are kids who are signed up for the same course, but have different teachers. In one particular case, my teacher assigned a lot of homework throughout the year. My class was going several readings a night and taking obscure fill-in-the-blank quizzes. The other classes were taking online, open-notes quizzes once-a-week. The level and workload of the two classes were at completely different levels, but the course that was on our schedules was supposed to be the same. It remained this way throughout most of the year, until we took our final. The opposite happened for me in another class. I got the teacher that doesn't assign massive amounts of homework, but the other teacher does. I talk to the kids who have the other classes, and they get hours of homework each night. I get around half an hour of homework each night. It isn't that they're sitting around listening to music and eternally chatting with friends on Facebook and texting and IMing, it's that they really do have more homework than me. I'm sure it's not at all unusual for this to happen within a school, so I have no problem believing that there are differences between schools all across the country. There are classes that will have it easier than I did, and classes that WILL have it harder. That doesn't mean that they are making it up, and being irresponsible. Sometimes, they're just being honest.



I agree that massive amounts of homework in and if itself does not make a class challenging but I also think that a challenging class can have massive amounts of homework. I know because we've lived that scenario. And at first I wasn't going to post in reply to your other points but here goes...

I am glad that you are proud of your kids, glad that you are proud of your kids' schools, glad that you are proud of the state of education in Minnesota.

What I don't understand is why you historically seem to imply in your 'education' posts that educational opportunities in other states are somewhat or somehow inferior to a degree...especially high schools and community colleges. And what's funny is I agree with some of your points like the amount of homework not being a true indicator of a teacher's success in teaching a subject, BUT the way you said it! C'mon, how would you like it if I phrased a post this way (hypthetically-speaking only!)...
"I know someone who is enrolled in one of the Top Ten school systems in the country and is being heavily recruited by Ivy League/top-tier schools and has three to four hours of home work almost every single night...you people who have kids with ONLY one hour of homework? Your kids will be missing the boat for college."
NOW, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, but the attitude that drips off my pretend quoted-post above is probably fairly clear. And, in my opinion, the attitude that drips off your actual statements regarding your kids' high school experiences?...

Anyway, back to the OP...
princesspumpkin - maybe talk to some other parents & kids from the local high school who have taken the honors classes? Your DD has to be very sure that she can handle the workload. I also think punkin's DD's experience with rising to the challenge is a consideration. If much is expected of *your* student, does she have a tendency to rise to that challenge?
And about getting 'placed' in groupings... In our case, there was a GT grouping in place in the local middle school and DD was not placed in it, *yet* she took all 'honor' classes in middle school and took two high-school classes in 8th-grade, is taking multiple AP courses in high school, has at almost every turn out-achieved (grade-wise, standardized tests, etc.) most of the kids who were placed in that GT group, so getting 'placed' or 'anointed' as being in the "special-group" is not always everything it's cracked up to be.

agnes!

We are talking about FRESHMEN, not seniors. Junior and senior year will be a LOT different for our kids, but as FRESHMEN they don't have all that much homework. They will do just fine in college. They have great study habits and catch on to things quite easily. We actually have been concerned about their lack of homework and asked teachers at conferences and they all said the same thing, there are those kids that use their time wisely and those that don't, our kids fall into the first category. They said that some kids DO spend hours and hours on their homework but they aren't the best students in the class.

As far as eduction in other states, I am just going off of what other's have posted-their schools are horrible, they only teach to the test, kids can't get into even the state schools, etc., etc., etc. Honestly, we don't see that here, thus, my reasoning for our better educational opportunities.

 

[AshleyW]

We are talking about FRESHMEN, not seniors. Junior and senior year will be a LOT different for our kids, but as FRESHMEN they don't have all that much homework. They will do just fine in college. They have great study habits and catch on to things quite easily. We actually have been concerned about their lack of homework and asked teachers at conferences and they all said the same thing, there are those kids that use their time wisely and those that don't, our kids fall into the first category. They said that some kids DO spend hours and hours on their homework but they aren't the best students in the class.

As far as eduction in other states, I am just going off of what other's have posted-their schools are horrible, they only teach to the test, kids can't get into even the state schools, etc., etc., etc. Honestly, we don't see that here, thus, my reasoning for our better educational opportunities.

I may have misunderstood Agnes, but as I read it, she wasn't criticizing what you say necessarily, but rather how you say it..

 

[MnMomtoboys]

Thank you Agnes.

My oldest is of course in a MN high school and had mostly honors classes in freshman year. He had way more homework than just an hour. It might of been just 1 hour per class but each class had a lot of homework most nights. He worked hard and in the last 3 years has gotten mostly A's but he has worked for them.

Our education system may be one of the best but its not like we don't have our problems too. I would love to see a little more honestly in the telling of our school system.

 

[sunnyday123]

That's a good idea, see what it's been like for kids who have taken the actual classes.

Is that one hour per class per night or is that one hour *total* per night? I just asked DD about homework, school & life in general and here is what she has to say on the subject:

(From agnes!' DD)...
Not everyone who complains about hours and hours of homework is making it up. Sometimes, hours and hours of homework actually is assigned. One cannot base what everyone else says off their own experiences. It is rude to insinuate that anyone who complains about too much homework is lazy, because like you said, every school and every teacher is DIFFERENT. At my school, there are kids who are signed up for the same course, but have different teachers. In one particular case, my teacher assigned a lot of homework throughout the year. My class was going several readings a night and taking obscure fill-in-the-blank quizzes. The other classes were taking online, open-notes quizzes once-a-week. The level and workload of the two classes were at completely different levels, but the course that was on our schedules was supposed to be the same. It remained this way throughout most of the year, until we took our final. The opposite happened for me in another class. I got the teacher that doesn't assign massive amounts of homework, but the other teacher does. I talk to the kids who have the other classes, and they get hours of homework each night. I get around half an hour of homework each night. It isn't that they're sitting around listening to music and eternally chatting with friends on Facebook and texting and IMing, it's that they really do have more homework than me. I'm sure it's not at all unusual for this to happen within a school, so I have no problem believing that there are differences between schools all across the country. There are classes that will have it easier than I did, and classes that WILL have it harder. That doesn't mean that they are making it up, and being irresponsible. Sometimes, they're just being honest.



I agree that massive amounts of homework in and if itself does not make a class challenging but I also think that a challenging class can have massive amounts of homework. I know because we've lived that scenario. And at first I wasn't going to post in reply to your other points but here goes...

I am glad that you are proud of your kids, glad that you are proud of your kids' schools, glad that you are proud of the state of education in Minnesota.

What I don't understand is why you historically seem to imply in your 'education' posts that educational opportunities in other states are somewhat or somehow inferior to a degree...especially high schools and community colleges. And what's funny is I agree with some of your points like the amount of homework not being a true indicator of a teacher's success in teaching a subject, BUT the way you said it! C'mon, how would you like it if I phrased a post this way (hypthetically-speaking only!)...
"I know someone who is enrolled in one of the Top Ten school systems in the country and is being heavily recruited by Ivy League/top-tier schools and has three to four hours of home work almost every single night...you people who have kids with ONLY one hour of homework? Your kids will be missing the boat for college."
NOW, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, but the attitude that drips off my pretend quoted-post above is probably fairly clear. And, in my opinion, the attitude that drips off your actual statements regarding your kids' high school experiences?...


agnes!

Agnes, you and your daughter ROCK!!!!

 

[sunnyday123]

Thanks again everyone. I so agree with a previous poster in that I can't say that the teacher recommendation is wrong, just that I don't agree with it.

I have started the process of trying to get this history class changed. I spoke with her counselor again, e-mailed her present language teacher to see what her thoughts are, and left a message for the history department head to find out what they are actually looking for in the students, to qualify for the honors class.

Unfortunately, if she is placed into an honors class and is doing poorly, they won't allow her to change to a lower class. But if she starts off very strongly in the lower class, they can move her up. Good things about her school is that there are three different levels in each academic subject, so if she isn't in honors, she would be in "accelerated" college prep, as opposed to basic college prep.

Will wait and see what unfolds

I had my DD changed from 1st level ( thats what they call it in her school) to 2nd level classes. She did her homework while the teacher taught and then read a book when she was done. If she wasn't doing that she was talking during class or taking frequent, long trips to the bathroom and visiting the nurse.

Now she actually brings home homework, and is a little more challenged. She loves it. Her principal said she wasn't recommended because she had said she didn't want the harder classes. Well, of course she didn't, she couldn't goof off during that class. And who asks a 12 year old for pete's sakes?

If you feel she can do it, do for it.

 

[marcyinPA]

This is an area that I have some experience in! LOL

My DS15 just finished his Freshman year. In 6th grade, he was in regular classes and we were very upset about it. However, we decided against moving him mid-year and just kept him where he was. His teachers were aware that he was able to more advanced work, and gave him the advanced tests in each subject while the rest of his class was doing the regular ed. tests. He had straight A's in 6th grade.

We had him moved up to the advanced track in 7th and 8th grade, against the judgment of his guidance counselor. He did well...all A's and B's.

In 8th grade, when it was time to take the tests for honors classes in high school, his teachers didn't encourage OR discourage him from taking the tests. We were really torn. He took the test for honors English and didn't pass it.

We chose not to pursue honors for him, knowing full well that he probably could handle the work, but was not really all that driven to handle it.

The problem with our district is that it is honors or nothing. In other words, there is Honors, Academic, and special ed. If you don't go into honors, you are with kids who may or may not be near your academic level. My son had kids in his class who cut class, came in high, etc. He loved going to SCHOOL, but hated going to CLASS if that makes any sense?! He loved band, lunch, and any class that had a mix of abilities. He hated his academic classes because "everyone fooled around all the time and nobody cared". (These are his words, and they infuriated me because he didn't do his best either!! He was a GREAT kid, and loved by his teachers, but his grades were awful. You would have thought he'd work harder to get into honors next year, but that didn't happen. )

Unfortunately for us, he did not do well this year at all. Part of me wonders if he were in honors, with his friends, and with a peer group who will challenge him, if he would have done better. Or would he have not done well regardless? It is a catch 22 though, because he was not allowed to try to test in to honors for 10th grade because of his 9th grade grades. Next year, he will be with the same regular academic kids. My prayer is that he works hard and tests into honors for 11th grade.

I think you need to find out what the regular academic classes are like at your high school. If they are anything like the ones at my son's, I would push for honors, and I would tell the guidance counselor that you are willing to get your daughter a tutor at your expense if she is having trouble in the class.

Good luck...these decisions can be difficult sometimes!!!

 

[Mickey's Minion]

DD is about to start HS and her schedule has been made out for next year to include Honors Biology. Math is her favorite subject, and she has always done well in it, but was not placed in Honors Geometry. Since she meets the qualifications, I called the school and after a few more calls, they placed her in it.

My dilemma is whether we should try to get her placed in Honors World History. She meets some of the criteria, but not all, but she wants to be in it. I feel that she can handle the work.

How many parents have been successful in getting their kids' schedule changed, even if the school doesn't think that they should? For the record, they look at both English and Social Studies from middle school in deciding. Her SS teacher gave her the go ahead, the English teacher (in which she has had all As) thinks she should see how freshman year goes, then try for Honors in 10th grade.

Any help would be appreciated.

"You" should not be changing your daughter's schedule. That should be up to her as a high school student.

I would help guide your daughter in making an appointment with the guidance counselors either before school starts if they are there yet, or shortly thereafter.

Then let her plead her case and work with the guidance counselor to get the schedule that fits her best.

In our high schools, you can meet with the counselors the first week of school if you want to make any changes. After that, no changes.

Help your daughter find out what her school's policies are regarding schedule changes and then leave the rest up to her.

 

[pixiegoose]

Not a parent yet (ask me in August!) but when I was a freshman, my mom signed a waiver to get me onto the advanced track (meaning I took geometry/biology as freshman, algebra 2/chemistry as sophomore, pre-calc/trig/physics as junior and AP Calc/AP Bio as senior as opposed to algebra/physical science, geometry/biology, algebra 2/chemistry, whatever senior year). I had been on the advanced track in 8th grade (I took algebra while the regular track took pre-algebra) but because of my not-so-great algebra grade, the teachers recommended I stay on the regular track. I tried the regular track (the same classes I'd taken as an eighth grader) for a couple of days and was absolutely bored to tears, so I begged my mom to please get it changed. She signed the waiver (though she was hesitant because I'd have to take the higher level maths and sciences and neither she nor my dad are math/science people) and I did absolutely fine and graduated in the top 5% of my class. I was also in gifted/honors English and History but that wasn't debatable as compared to the math/science.

Do whatever you think is best for your daughter- you know her best.

 

[Kteacher]

My now 20 year old DS went through something similar when he was in HS. His guidance counselor didn't think he could handle 2 honors courses in the same trimester, and pulled him out of one. I spoke to his math teacher from the previous year, who felt that he could handle the course load. He contacted the guidance counselor, and had my DS switched back into the honors math class.
Talk to your child's teachers and see what they have to say

 

[LisaR]

I may have misunderstood Agnes, but as I read it, she wasn't criticizing what you say necessarily, but rather how you say it..

That is how I understood it too and comments like the bolded below don't help.

We are talking about FRESHMEN, not seniors. Junior and senior year will be a LOT different for our kids, but as FRESHMEN they don't have all that much homework. They will do just fine in college. They have great study habits and catch on to things quite easily. We actually have been concerned about their lack of homework and asked teachers at conferences and they all said the same thing, there are those kids that use their time wisely and those that don't, our kids fall into the first category. They said that some kids DO spend hours and hours on their homework but they aren't the best students in the class.

As far as eduction in other states, I am just going off of what other's have posted-their schools are horrible, they only teach to the test, kids can't get into even the state schools, etc., etc., etc. Honestly, we don't see that here, thus, my reasoning for our better educational opportunities.

That statement says that if a kid has a lot of homework, it is because they have poor study habits. Your children do not have a lot of homework, therefore they are great students.

I also disagree with your statement about senior year being tough. We are not there yet so I reserve the right to change my mind later down the road. But from what I can see, most of the kids are thrilled with their senior year because it is so much easier. Most just have a few classes that they have to take and look forward to not having a full load for the first time since high school started.

 

[AshleyW]

That is how I understood it too and comments like the bolded below don't help.



That statement says that if a kid has a lot of homework, it is because they have poor study habits. Your children do not have a lot of homework, therefore they are great students.

I also disagree with your statement about senior year being tough. We are not there yet so I reserve the right to change my mind later down the road. But from what I can see, most of the kids are thrilled with their senior year because it is so much easier. Most just have a few classes that they have to take and look forward to not having a full load for the first time since high school started.

Yeah, my senior year (5 years ago) was pretty easy-peasy. I was done with all my regular high school level classes, so I took some AP classes and also classes at the University of Iowa. I didn't have many assignments for my AP classes, just had to study for tests. Most of the hard work came from my U of I classes, and that was my choice.

 

[princesspumpkin]

"You" should not be changing your daughter's schedule. That should be up to her as a high school student.

I would help guide your daughter in making an appointment with the guidance counselors either before school starts if they are there yet, or shortly thereafter.

Then let her plead her case and work with the guidance counselor to get the schedule that fits her best.

In our high schools, you can meet with the counselors the first week of school if you want to make any changes. After that, no changes.

Help your daughter find out what her school's policies are regarding schedule changes and then leave the rest up to her.

I understand what you're saying, but my 13 year old does not view this with adult eyes. I do realize that there are many young teens (her best friend being one of them) that are mature enough to figure this out for themselves. My child does very well in school, but would i trust her to approach a high school counselor and fight for a different schedule - nada

And just because she can't handle that, doesn't mean she can't handle a few honors classes. I am guiding her through this process, knowing that as she matures, she will be able to take over.