Getting honors classes in high school against recommendation

[IDoDis]

My DD will be a freshman next year, too. She will be taking an honors math class and an honors English class. We opted out of the honors history. It was an option that she qualified for but we figured it was not necessary. History is history. The only difference I could really see in the honors course is more work. And quite frankly, unless a person is going to be a history major and teach history or write history books, most of those dates and events get lost in the brain jumble over time. If we don't use the history info on a daily basis, we lose it anyway. I had to relearn lots of history while working with my own kids -- all things I had "learned" at one time.

I say skip the honors history this year. It's really not necessary.

 

[frndshpcptn]

My DD will be a freshman next year, too. She will be taking an honors math class and an honors English class. We opted out of the honors history. It was an option that she qualified for but we figured it was not necessary. History is history. The only difference I could really see in the honors course is more work. And quite frankly, unless a person is going to be a history major and teach history or write history books, most of those dates and events get lost in the brain jumble over time. If we don't use the history info on a daily basis, we lose it anyway. I had to relearn lots of history while working with my own kids -- all things I had "learned" at one time.

I say skip the honors history this year. It's really not necessary.

Just to point this out (since I did do the honors/AP History and then minor in it at University) - a good history teacher teaches SO much more than dates and events. Learning history at the honors-level is more about understanding why events happened - what led up to them from a geographical / sociological / psychological standpoint. How the events unfolded the way they did and what impact those event have on our world today. Nothing in our current world came out of a vacuum - it's all tied to events that happened historically around the globe.

Business people, medical practioners, lawyers...many different professional would do well to have a good understanding of history so they can learn from it - and use those events to avoid (or hopefully avoid) repeating some of the not-so-great ones. Or - alternately - learn about some of the great achievements of mankind and HOW they came out - what was the impetus for those events / moments and perhaps see them as inspiration in thier own fields.

Off my "History is Useful" soapbox to also add:

I took honors / AP history and English classes in high school (and junior high) High School was a definite adjustment from junior high school and I'm glad I only took those two subjects at that level my first year in High School. New school, new people, new routine, new after school activities, etc all added up.

Will your daughter be with new classmates at the high school level - or will she be with mostly people she's known since elemtentary school?

 

[bluesaturn]

My DD will be a freshman next year, too. She will be taking an honors math class and an honors English class. We opted out of the honors history. It was an option that she qualified for but we figured it was not necessary. History is history. The only difference I could really see in the honors course is more work. And quite frankly, unless a person is going to be a history major and teach history or write history books, most of those dates and events get lost in the brain jumble over time. If we don't use the history info on a daily basis, we lose it anyway. I had to relearn lots of history while working with my own kids -- all things I had "learned" at one time.

I say skip the honors history this year. It's really not necessary.

Actually, some of my most valued writing instruction came from my honors/AP history classes. The facts were the same across all classes, but we were asked to do different things with those facts. I really learned to write a research paper in history.

 

[princesspumpkin]

Will your daughter be with new classmates at the high school level - or will she be with mostly people she's known since elemtentary school?

She will be going to HS with most of the people that she knows from middle school. She has a good core group of girls who will also be in a few honors classes.

 

[frndshpcptn]

Actually, some of my most valued writing instruction came from my honors/AP history classes. The facts were the same across all classes, but we were asked to do different things with those facts. I really learned to write a research paper in history.

I agree with this as well.

Again - in an AP / Honors history class the papers you write are not as much about facts and dates, as about theories and behaviors and context and larger issues of the time period. It's about putting it all together and learning to to uncover layers to see the bigger picture of the world.

It's fascinating and a great exercise in analytical thinking / writing.

 

[pigletgirl]

The AP/Honors (we called it AP in my high school) classes really weren't much of a difference for History/Geography. Unless you want to pursue that in College and/or for a GPA she doesn't technically need to be in it.

I started out at Geometry in my freshman year and many kids got taken out as we had to take a pre-test on the second day of school to weed out kids. Many parents pushed their children in there not really realizing that they weren't ready.

The homework on a typical night took anywhere from 1-4 hours depending on assignments and how many from the different classes.

College doesn't even compare. Really, the honors just gets you scholarships. Thats the truth.

 

[frndshpcptn]

The AP/Honors (we called it AP in my high school) classes really weren't much of a difference for History/Geography. Unless you want to pursue that in College and/or for a GPA she doesn't technically need to be in it.

I started out at Geometry in my freshman year and many kids got taken out as we had to take a pre-test on the second day of school to weed out kids. Many parents pushed their children in there not really realizing that they weren't ready.

The homework on a typical night took anywhere from 1-4 hours depending on assignments and how many from the different classes.

College doesn't even compare. Really, the honors just gets you scholarships. Thats the truth.

Perhaps in your high school?

At mine the class content / execution of lessons was definitely different based on honors / AP vs. "regular" level classes.

And I knew plently of non-Honors kids that got scholorships to college as well...

Maybe it's just different depending on where you grow up!

 

[Riverhill]

I am "that Parent"... both of my kids take Honors classes. My DD just finished 9th grade. She took all honors classes. I would do whatever you and your child feel he/she can handle and not listen to the teacher. I admire anyone who is willing to spend their lives teaching. But, that does not make them an expert on your child. When my DS was in 2nd grade, the teacher told me that "some kids just are not meant for 3rd grade". Where these children are that never make it to 3rd grade I have yet to find out. I knew my child was smart. Sure enough after have him tested for any learning problems we found out that he was reading at an eight grade level in 2nd grade. I live in Michigan and we have school of choice. I now drive my kids 20 one way to a better school system.

 

[DisGirlAllie]

After taking honors World History this year (pre-AP in our county), even with recommendation from all my teachers last year, I really wouldn't suggest your daughter taking it without recommendations and not 100% of the qualifications. But, you know your daughter. If you think she can handle it, than wish her good luck and let her know you'll be there! I don't know how they teach it in your school system but in mine it's really complex and truly designed to get you ready for the AP classes of high school.
Just curious...are most of the popular kids at your daughter's school in most of the honors classes?

 

[pigletgirl]

Perhaps in your high school?

At mine the class content / execution of lessons was definitely different based on honors / AP vs. "regular" level classes.

And I knew plently of non-Honors kids that got scholorships to college as well...

Maybe it's just different depending on where you grow up!

Oh yes, some of the material was different but we did the same required reading as the mainstream classes did. Different assignments, ect.

And of course the mainstream students got scholarships, but if you wanted the big one - the Flynn - you had to be in AP classes to be considered -- plus other things as well.

I hate to generalize, but around here the most of the AP students are serious about college and intend to go that route. Regardless of what you're in, you have to take so many math classes, ect to even apply at schools.

To OP...don't let this get you down! The world is run by B students!!!

 

[kbeverina]

As far as eduction in other states, I am just going off of what other's have posted-their schools are horrible, they only teach to the test, kids can't get into even the state schools, etc., etc., etc. Honestly, we don't see that here, thus, my reasoning for our better educational opportunities.

If that is in regards to another thread where we talked about this, you have completely misinterpreted what was said.

It's not that they can't get into even the state schools because the public schools are so bad. It's that the state schools are very good and for a bargain price. Schools like UVA, William and Mary, Virginia Tech and James Madison are great schools for 15K-20K, including room and board. I had tons of friends and several roommates from New York, New Jersey and Maryland (all with stellar school systems) because even the out-of-state tuition is reasonable.

In the past several years, applications to these schools have skyrocketed and there is a limit to the number of students that can be accepted from each area, since the schools are state-supported. So it has become increasingly difficult to get in. But not because the public schools here are poor and producing poor applicants.

I get that you like your schools and that's great--it's always a good thing for kids to have the best opportunities their communities can afford. But when you say stuff like even state schools (implying they're not so great with low standards) and "competitive" schools (putting competitive in quotes to discount that description), and you imply that kids here can't get into state schools because the public schools are horrible, you really just don't know what you're talking about. People are generally too polite to set you straight or they press the back button because they don't want to come off like you do. Which I probably just did by typing all this, but oh well.

 

[ClarabelleCowFan]

That's a good idea, see what it's been like for kids who have taken the actual classes.

Is that one hour per class per night or is that one hour *total* per night? I just asked DD about homework, school & life in general and here is what she has to say on the subject:

(From agnes!' DD)...
Not everyone who complains about hours and hours of homework is making it up. Sometimes, hours and hours of homework actually is assigned. One cannot base what everyone else says off their own experiences. It is rude to insinuate that anyone who complains about too much homework is lazy, because like you said, every school and every teacher is DIFFERENT. At my school, there are kids who are signed up for the same course, but have different teachers. In one particular case, my teacher assigned a lot of homework throughout the year. My class was going several readings a night and taking obscure fill-in-the-blank quizzes. The other classes were taking online, open-notes quizzes once-a-week. The level and workload of the two classes were at completely different levels, but the course that was on our schedules was supposed to be the same. It remained this way throughout most of the year, until we took our final. The opposite happened for me in another class. I got the teacher that doesn't assign massive amounts of homework, but the other teacher does. I talk to the kids who have the other classes, and they get hours of homework each night. I get around half an hour of homework each night. It isn't that they're sitting around listening to music and eternally chatting with friends on Facebook and texting and IMing, it's that they really do have more homework than me. I'm sure it's not at all unusual for this to happen within a school, so I have no problem believing that there are differences between schools all across the country. There are classes that will have it easier than I did, and classes that WILL have it harder. That doesn't mean that they are making it up, and being irresponsible. Sometimes, they're just being honest.



I agree that massive amounts of homework in and if itself does not make a class challenging but I also think that a challenging class can have massive amounts of homework. I know because we've lived that scenario. And at first I wasn't going to post in reply to your other points but here goes...

I am glad that you are proud of your kids, glad that you are proud of your kids' schools, glad that you are proud of the state of education in Minnesota.

What I don't understand is why you historically seem to imply in your 'education' posts that educational opportunities in other states are somewhat or somehow inferior to a degree...especially high schools and community colleges. And what's funny is I agree with some of your points like the amount of homework not being a true indicator of a teacher's success in teaching a subject, BUT the way you said it! C'mon, how would you like it if I phrased a post this way (hypthetically-speaking only!)...
"I know someone who is enrolled in one of the Top Ten school systems in the country and is being heavily recruited by Ivy League/top-tier schools and has three to four hours of home work almost every single night...you people who have kids with ONLY one hour of homework? Your kids will be missing the boat for college."
NOW, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT, but the attitude that drips off my pretend quoted-post above is probably fairly clear. And, in my opinion, the attitude that drips off your actual statements regarding your kids' high school experiences?...

Anyway, back to the OP...
princesspumpkin - maybe talk to some other parents & kids from the local high school who have taken the honors classes? Your DD has to be very sure that she can handle the workload. I also think punkin's DD's experience with rising to the challenge is a consideration. If much is expected of *your* student, does she have a tendency to rise to that challenge?
And about getting 'placed' in groupings... In our case, there was a GT grouping in place in the local middle school and DD was not placed in it, *yet* she took all 'honor' classes in middle school and took two high-school classes in 8th-grade, is taking multiple AP courses in high school, has at almost every turn out-achieved (grade-wise, standardized tests, etc.) most of the kids who were placed in that GT group, so getting 'placed' or 'anointed' as being in the "special-group" is not always everything it's cracked up to be.

agnes!

IS there a standing ovation smiley?? Well said!


FTR, DH went to MN schools. They aren't all that.

To the OP - let your child be the guide. They know what they can handle. DD16 came from a magnet school of the arts where all classes are Honors or AP level into a regular public school here in MD and struggled in the math Honors class. She dropped back down to regular level Math classes and has her grades back to an A now. She kept on track with Honors and AP classes for the rest of her curriculum and is doing just fine. When we moved here the school tried to tell us that the math she had wasn't up to their level but we didn't listen and put her in Honors anyway. Trust your gut and do what is best for your child but do take into consideration the recommendations of the teachers.

 

[tar heel]

If that is in regards to another thread where we talked about this, you have completely misinterpreted what was said.

It's not that they can't get into even the state schools because the public schools are so bad. It's that the state schools are very good and for a bargain price. Schools like UVA, William and Mary, Virginia Tech and James Madison are great schools for 15K-20K, including room and board. I had tons of friends and several roommates from New York, New Jersey and Maryland (all with stellar school systems) because even the out-of-state tuition is reasonable.

In the past several years, applications to these schools have skyrocketed and there is a limit to the number of students that can be accepted from each area, since the schools are state-supported. So it has become increasingly difficult to get in. But not because the public schools here are poor and producing poor applicants.

I get that you like your schools and that's great--it's always a good thing for kids to have the best opportunities their communities can afford. But when you say stuff like even state schools (implying they're not so great with low standards) and "competitive" schools (putting competitive in quotes to discount that description), and you imply that kids here can't get into state schools because the public schools are horrible, you really just don't know what you're talking about. People are generally too polite to set you straight or they press the back button because they don't want to come off like you do. Which I probably just did by typing all this, but oh well.

Great post! All kids in North Carolina can't get into UNC Chapel Hill because it's one of the most selective in the country. I don't mean one of the most selective public universities either -- I mean one of the most selective period. Of course, our top public school students get into our state universities, even Chapel Hill -- of course some of them go to Ivey League schools, Davidson, Duke, etc., instead of Chapel Hill.

 

[bluesaturn]

If that is in regards to another thread where we talked about this, you have completely misinterpreted what was said.

It's not that they can't get into even the state schools because the public schools are so bad. It's that the state schools are very good and for a bargain price. Schools like UVA, William and Mary, Virginia Tech and James Madison are great schools for 15K-20K, including room and board. I had tons of friends and several roommates from New York, New Jersey and Maryland (all with stellar school systems) because even the out-of-state tuition is reasonable.

In the past several years, applications to these schools have skyrocketed and there is a limit to the number of students that can be accepted from each area, since the schools are state-supported. So it has become increasingly difficult to get in. But not because the public schools here are poor and producing poor applicants.

I get that you like your schools and that's great--it's always a good thing for kids to have the best opportunities their communities can afford. But when you say stuff like even state schools (implying they're not so great with low standards) and "competitive" schools (putting competitive in quotes to discount that description), and you imply that kids here can't get into state schools because the public schools are horrible, you really just don't know what you're talking about. People are generally too polite to set you straight or they press the back button because they don't want to come off like you do. Which I probably just did by typing all this, but oh well.

Well said. I believe Virginia has excellent public universities because they have excellent high schools. The competition is fierce and the expectations are high.

 

[princesspumpkin]

Just curious...are most of the popular kids at your daughter's school in most of the honors classes?

Actually, no. Her best friends, who are more quiet and very studious, are in the honors classes. And the rest of the kids are similar, but not quite the "popular" kids.

And pigletgirl, what you have said is tooo true! But for the record, she's not quite a "B" student (with a 97 in SS and 93 in language), and not getting Honors WH is certainly not gonna get me down (although she may be a little disappointed) I am just trying to make sure she is in the classes that fit her and think that if she takes the lower level history class, she might be a little bored.

I do appreciate everyone's take of the situation. It's interesting to see the different experiences around the country.

 

[CF'er]

My son will be a freshman this fall and he is in Honors English and Social Studies. He wanted Honors Biology and Math. After talking with other parents, teachers etc we decided to leave his sched as recommended.

The feelings were that the high school transition is a big one. Better to be a little underwhelmed than totally overwhelmed. Let him take what he has and if need be advance it his sophomore year. Very few of our kids got Honors Math as the trend for ALL has been to struggle with our new math curriculum. (The State changed it a couple of years ago.)

That is just my two cents worth. Best of luck on your decision. I know how hard it is to want to make the right decision and having no idea what it is. You just pray it doesn't backfire on you.