Free Kate

[FireDancer]

Really?

I didn't think I was that old and out of touch. (I graduated from HS in 1999)


There have been numerous studies conducted (well after 1998... )

Here's one from 2007 that found
"A total of 83.5% of adolescents reported that an adolescent was still a virgin if he or she participated in genital touching, and 70.6% of adolescent believed that girls and boys retain their virginity if they participate in oral sex."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1941649/

You are talking about two different things. Whether or not you consider yourself a virgin is a matter of opinion. Heck, there are "born again virgins" as ridiculous as that is. Whether or not something is sex in the eyes of the law, and is thus punishable by the law, is completely different and after all the news coverage of certain hearings in 1998 that has very much been a topic in the public conscious.

 

[luvsJack]

The problem is that those last few days make a difference, and therefore flawed or not, it is important to make sure that teens have a clear understanding what that means, in regards to legal consequences. People focus on that "by law" thing because if an 18 YO breaks this law in particular, the consequences are very drastic.

My DH has an issue with the seat belt law. he thinks it is no one business but his own if he wears a seat belt. Makes no difference what he thinks, if he drives with no seat belt and is stopped, he has broken a law and must pay the consequences. He also gets irritated with me if I say "It is the law"

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't purpose for anyone to tell their teen just to ignore the law. If someone's 18 year old is dating someone under 16 then they need to be warned.

I bet that they tried. They are angry and since they have legal recourse with Kate, and not their DD, they are using it as some sort of punishment. I don't know if they did this, but perhaps they should have made sure the their DD, Kate and Kate's parents knew that they would have n problem taking this mess to court if Kate and their DD continued their relationship.

And see, this is one of my issues with this. Its a punishment. They are using this law to punish Kate in a way that they cannot punish their own child.

I agree that if they intended to take this plan of action, they should have made everyone aware of it up front. Even if Kate knew the law, she may have thought that they wouldn't press charges.

Putting Kate in jail is not going to stop their dd from having sex. Its not going to change what happened and its not going to make their child straight. Its just going to ruin Kate's life. What positive is going to come from it?

 

[LisaR]

I think, in light of the current trends in "redshirting" and holding kids back based on certain milestone targets as they relate to state testing, that there needs to be wording added to exclude schoolmates. It would be simple enough to amend age-of-consent laws to add language to the effect of "except when both parties are enrolled in a recognized program of secondary education". That would recognize that while a relationship between a senior and a freshman might be ill-advised it isn't criminal and should be a matter for parents rather than law enforcement, without weakening the ability to prosecute adult men who deliberately prey on teens. I don't think this was as much of an issue in the past when there was less law enforcement involvement in the schools as a whole and when there was less age variation within each grade, but now that it is absolutely normal to have a 2 year span between the oldest and youngest in any given class I think the law has to evolve to adapt to those circumstances.

I agree with you that the law is flawed, but I don't agree with your solution at all. I think that is nothing but an open invitation for forcing unwanted sex on people all under the guise that the law says we can do it because we go to school together.

 

[LisaR]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't purpose for anyone to tell their teen just to ignore the law. If someone's 18 year old is dating someone under 16 then they need to be warned.



And see, this is one of my issues with this. Its a punishment. They are using this law to punish Kate in a way that they cannot punish their own child.

I agree that if they intended to take this plan of action, they should have made everyone aware of it up front. Even if Kate knew the law, she may have thought that they wouldn't press charges.

Putting Kate in jail is not going to stop their dd from having sex. Its not going to change what happened and its not going to make their child straight. Its just going to ruin Kate's life. What positive is going to come from it?

What positive is going to come from tossing a drunk driver behind bars? He is just going to get out and do it again. I don't think the laws were designed to roll back the hands of time or have a positive outcome. Charges are given after the law has already been broken. They fix nothing. It is just how it works.

 

[luvsJack]

What positive is going to come from tossing a drunk driver behind bars? He is just going to get out and do it again. I don't think the laws were designed to roll back the hands of time or have a positive outcome. Charges are given after the law has already been broken. They fix nothing. It is just how it works.

It keeps him off the road while he is drunk that time, and many judges will send them to AA, they attend classes about the results of drunk driving and how much alcohol effects their driving. It doesn't cure all of them, but it does help some of them or sends them to get help. Or at the very least, will give some of them the knowledge to know how much they can drink and drive safely.

If a person kills someone, it takes them out of society to kill again. Someone who robs, is put where they cannot steal again.

Those are the positives for those types of situations. No hands of time cannot be turned back. But that isn't the point either.

When Kate gets out of jail, and their dd still wants a relationship with Kate; what have they accomplished?

And if their dd decides to have sex with another 18 year old? They just get to press charges again? When does it become a situation that needs to be dealt with in their child?

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

And I think the POV some of us are coming from is that the law is flawed on this issue, that it criminalizes normal behaviour, that the punishment does not in any way fit the crime, and that it is applied unevenly based on the demands of parents acting from their own biases. If a parent thinks 14 is too young for dating or too young for sex that's an issue to address as a parent. Teach your values, set and impose rules, provide supervision. Don't demand that the criminal justice system step in where parental authority has fallen short.

An 18 year old adult having sexual relations with a 14 year old isn't normal, it's exploitation and criminal. The law is not flawed in the least. As for the parents that needed to teach some values, well I don't think we can conclusively say either set of parents didn't. It is possible for even someone taught properly to act up in the case of the 14 year old or commit a crime in the case of the 18 year old. But if any parents aren't teaching values, we should first have a look to the perp's parents rather than the victim's. They are the ones that are trying to blame everyone except their adult daughter for her crimes. And about all we have had on the victim's parents for a long time came from the PR campaign of the perp's parents.

Why? Why press charges? What happened to grounding and taking away the car and otherwise controlling or disciplining our own kids rather than expecting the law to take care of the situation? Why put all the blame on the other child because you don't know how to effectively impose your rules on your own?

Because the perpetrator is an adult, not a child. And that perpetrator committed a criminal act. And a parent can discipline their own child with a grounding or such and have the perp tossed in jail all at the same time.

 

[LisaR]

It keeps him off the road while he is drunk that time, and many judges will send them to AA, they attend classes about the results of drunk driving and how much alcohol effects their driving. It doesn't cure all of them, but it does help some of them or sends them to get help. Or at the very least, will give some of them the knowledge to know how much they can drink and drive safely.

If a person kills someone, it takes them out of society to kill again. Someone who robs, is put where they cannot steal again.

Those are the positives for those types of situations. No hands of time cannot be turned back. But that isn't the point either.

When Kate gets out of jail, and their dd still wants a relationship with Kate; what have they accomplished?

And if their dd decides to have sex with another 18 year old? They just get to press charges again? When does it become a situation that needs to be dealt with in their child?

Believe it or not, I am on your side. I think the charges are ridiculous. I really do. It sounds like this was a consensual relationship. For me, that is my line in the sand. If both people agree it was consensual, I think the case should be tossed or probation should be the maximum. Unfortunately, the law doesn't work that way and the parents did have the right to report this. Whether we like it or not, in the eyes of the law, it is a crime.

I actually do think the 14 y/o will learn something from this. I can almost guarantee she is embarrassed beyond belief by how much attention this case is getting. I'm guessing it will be awhile before she dates anyone while living under the roof of her parents. And even if she does try and date someone, I'm guessing nobody will want to get involved with her given who her parents are.

I also think more people support this law than we think. I am betting if I would have posted a story on the Dis about finding my 14 y/o daughter having sex with an 18 y/o guy and I needed to figure out how to stop this relationship, half of the responses would tell me to press charges.

 

[tzolkin]

You are talking about two different things. Whether or not you consider yourself a virgin is a matter of opinion. Heck, there are "born again virgins" as ridiculous as that is. Whether or not something is sex in the eyes of the law, and is thus punishable by the law, is completely different and after all the news coverage of certain hearings in 1998 that has very much been a topic in the public conscious.

I am not talking about two unrelated things. I am talking about how one thing impacts another.

I am merely pointing out how a teen's definition of sex may influence their understanding of the law.

Most teens are unfamiliar with legal specifics. They hear that they can't have sex with someone younger once they turn 18 and they may assume that that only means intercourse (because that's all they consider to fall under their definition of sex). Based on studies, teens seem to have a more limited personal definition of "sex" than the legal definition.

I can guarantee you when two teens are "in the heat of the moment" they are not contemplating trials from 1998 to determine the possible legal consequences of their actions.

That's why I said it is important for parents to familiarize themselves with the law and have in depth conversations with their children.

 

[Erin1700]

But what if it was a guy and they let him off. And then his next girlfriend wasn't 14, she was 12?
Isnt that what the law is trying to cover?

She was with a minor. Case closed.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

But what if it was a guy and they let him off. And then his next girlfriend wasn't 14, she was 12?
Isnt that what the law is trying to cover?

She was with a minor. Case closed.

No law is "case closed".

 

[iheartdisney]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't purpose for anyone to tell their teen just to ignore the law. If someone's 18 year old is dating someone under 16 then they need to be warned.



And see, this is one of my issues with this. Its a punishment. They are using this law to punish Kate in a way that they cannot punish their own child.

I agree that if they intended to take this plan of action, they should have made everyone aware of it up front. Even if Kate knew the law, she may have thought that they wouldn't press charges.

Putting Kate in jail is not going to stop their dd from having sex. Its not going to change what happened and its not going to make their child straight. Its just going to ruin Kate's life. What positive is going to come from it?

Kate is being punished because Kate is the one that broke the law. The 14 year old isn't being punished by the law because she didn't break the law. In the eyes of the law, she is a victim. I don't know how the 14 year old was punished, but considering she ran away, I'm assuming it was a pretty severe punishment.

And as much as people hate it when the law doesn't line up with THEIR view of right and wrong, we are still a nation of LAWS. For example, just because there are millions of illegal immigrants who are NOT being deported doesn't make it wrong when one is. It is the law. If you are 18 and have sex with a 14 year old, you are breaking the law.

 

[luvsJack]

Believe it or not, I am on your side. I think the charges are ridiculous. I really do. It sounds like this was a consensual relationship. For me, that is my line in the sand. If both people agree it was consensual, I think the case should be tossed or probation should be the maximum. Unfortunately, the law doesn't work that way and the parents did have the right to report this. Whether we like it or not, in the eyes of the law, it is a crime.

I actually do think the 14 y/o will learn something from this. I can almost guarantee she is embarrassed beyond belief by how much attention this case is getting. I'm guessing it will be awhile before she dates anyone while living under the roof of her parents. And even if she does try and date someone, I'm guessing nobody will want to get involved with her given who her parents are.

I also think more people support this law than we think. I am betting if I would have posted a story on the Dis about finding my 14 y/o daughter having sex with an 18 y/o guy and I needed to figure out how to stop this relationship, half of the responses would tell me to press charges.

I hope she does, but she sounds like a rebellious 14 year old. There is a chance she won't and may do it again. And my question would be (to the parents), how many lives does she get to ruin? NOT saying its all the 14 year old's fault and that the 18 y.o is innocent; but just that her parents have the power as long as she is under the age of consent.

As for so many supporting the law, I would bet you are right. UNTIL its their 18 year old.

Like I said, though, dd is semi-dating an almost 18 year old. My job is to talk to my dd, give my dd the knowledge and the tools she needs to make good choices. And to have the self esteem and the self respect to not be convinced, talked into or manipulated into having sex with him or any one else.

 

[luvsJack]

Kate is being punished because Kate is the one that broke the law. The 14 year old isn't being punished by the law because she didn't break the law. In the eyes of the law, she is a victim. I don't know how the 14 year old was punished, but considering she ran away, I'm assuming it was a pretty severe punishment.

And as much as people hate it when the law doesn't line up with THEIR view of right and wrong, we are still a nation of LAWS. For example, just because there are millions of illegal immigrants who are NOT being deported doesn't make it wrong when one is. It is the law. If you are 18 and have sex with a 14 year old, you are breaking the law.

My point though is not why the court system is charging her, but why the parents chose to press charges in the first place.

 

[luvsJack]

An 18 year old adult having sexual relations with a 14 year old isn't normal, it's exploitation and criminal. The law is not flawed in the least. As for the parents that needed to teach some values, well I don't think we can conclusively say either set of parents didn't. It is possible for even someone taught properly to act up in the case of the 14 year old or commit a crime in the case of the 18 year old. But if any parents aren't teaching values, we should first have a look to the perp's parents rather than the victim's. They are the ones that are trying to blame everyone except their adult daughter for her crimes. And about all we have had on the victim's parents for a long time came from the PR campaign of the perp's parents.


Because the perpetrator is an adult, not a child. And that perpetrator committed a criminal act. And a parent can discipline their own child with a grounding or such and have the perp tossed in jail all at the same time.

She was not a "victim". She wasn't forcibly raped. She was a willing participant.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

As for not being “normal” uh, there are plenty of places in this country where 16 year olds marry 20 year olds. And they were probably together when they were 14 and 18.

 

[LisaR]

She was not a "victim". She wasn't forcibly raped. She was a willing participant.

You do not know all the details. None of us do. This may have started out as consensual, but the 14 y/o may have finally started to have a conscience but didn't know how to put a stop to the sex. She may have felt she loved Kate and wanted to be with her, but she now wanted to hold off on the sex. It is very hard for most people to say no to sex once they have started. Can you imagine a 14 y/o having the capacities to maneuver through a relationship while changing up the rules?

Now I am not saying this is what happened. It could simply be a case of a parent wanting their child out of a relationship and they were at the end of their rope.
I don't know the details. The parents felt a need to press charges and they have every right to do so by law. If this goes to court (and I hope it doesn't) maybe we will find out some of the details.

 

[punkin]

I think the law worked as it was supposed to. Last week my 14 yo HS freshman was invited by her 18 yo senior friend to come to "beach week." For those of you who do not know, it is a week when graduating HS seniors (and friends) rent houses on the beach and party (drugs, alcohol, fornication) for a week after school ends.

Now my (very mature) DD14 declined without even asking me...but assume for a minute, she asked me; I said NO!!!!; she ran away to the beach with her "adult" friends and had sex with one of them (male, female, mixed...it really doesn't matter). You can be sure, I would be calling the police and pressing charges. That does not mean I would not have punished my 14 YO, but it's the (stupid, immature) quasi-adults that are at fault in my hypothetical. I would want them punished for preying on a child!

In this case, the 18 yo woman/adult preyed on a 14 yo child. She should be in jail because she IS a sex offender.

 

[ICF]

As for not being “normal” uh, there are plenty of places in this country where 16 year olds marry 20 year olds. And they were probably together when they were 14 and 18.

It's not "normal" for a 16 year old and a 20 year old to get married. Does it happen, sure....but it sure isn't a normal run of the mill see it on a regular basis kinda thing.

 

[worm761]

My point though is not why the court system is charging her, but why the parents chose to press charges in the first place.

My guess is that they chose to press charges because they asked her twice to stop dating their daughter. What do you do when you tell your kid to not to do something and someone else (an adult in this case) helps her break your rules? You use what is available.

If I asked you to stop dating my kid twice and you wouldn't back off but rather decided to actively pursue my child, I would press charges too. I can only ground my kid. I can't do anything to yours.

 

[LisaR]

As for not being “normal” uh, there are plenty of places in this country where 16 year olds marry 20 year olds. And they were probably together when they were 14 and 18.

Just because this happens doesn't make it any less gross and it certainly isn't normal in my book.