FP+... who hates it

[BelleBriarRose]

I like FP+, but it's pretty much designed for people like me who love to plan everything. I get excited thinking about the next "milestone" in planning my trip (booking a resort, ADRs, fastpasses, etc) and there's still enough room for spontaneity between FPs and ADRs to suit me. Then again, I never knew the old FP system so I don't really have anything to compare it to.

 

[Cyrano]

Folks it is time to move debates about FP+ over to TP Community board.

Please remember the main board is for trip planning advice/comment both positive and negative.

 

[MrInfinity]

Though that is another of my favourite debates to have (we should not have it in this thread mind you). What is the selection bias of these boards. People like to argue that "people are more likely to complain than come post about how great things are". And while any social science or marketing background will teach that is true, that is only true of the greater population, not of a group of self selected Disney Fans who have already removed themselves from the broader population to join, and then post on these boards. In fact we have a whole section of the boards dedicated to Trip reports which, more or less, are rainbows and sunshine (as my trip reports likely would be as well, in fact my trips almost always include actual rainbows and sunshine ).

Anyway, yes, was serious that you can look other place and see lots of other people complain, but not as a source of representative data, just to point out its not just the "vocal minority on these boards" ...

This is true of internet boards in general. You can even pick a product known for its quality... like... Maytag? or Kohler? And go to their forum and you'll see predominantly people talking about how to fix something or complaining for this or that reason. Doesn't mean that 99.9% of the rest of guests are also having similar problems, but you'll see that .1% or whatever that is trying to find a part or resolve an issue. Case in point, the only time I've ever gone to the Kohler site to research is when I had something break. It's just the way forums are. My phone. I'm perfectly happy with my phone. But when I have a problem, I go out to the Android forum.

 

[mom2rtk]

This is true of internet boards in general. You can even pick a product known for its quality... like... Maytag? or Kohler? And go to their forum and you'll see predominantly people talking about how to fix something or complaining for this or that reason. Doesn't mean that 99.9% of the rest of guests are also having similar problems, but you'll see that .1% or whatever that is trying to find a part or resolve an issue. Case in point, the only time I've ever gone to the Kohler site to research is when I had something break. It's just the way forums are. My phone. I'm perfectly happy with my phone. But when I have a problem, I go out to the Android forum.

Maybe. But I wonder why the negative threads spiked in the last year or two here on the DIS.

 

[Shaden]

This is true of internet boards in general. You can even pick a product known for its quality... like... Maytag? or Kohler? And go to their forum and you'll see predominantly people talking about how to fix something or complaining for this or that reason. Doesn't mean that 99.9% of the rest of guests are also having similar problems, but you'll see that .1% or whatever that is trying to find a part or resolve an issue. Case in point, the only time I've ever gone to the Kohler site to research is when I had something break. It's just the way forums are. My phone. I'm perfectly happy with my phone. But when I have a problem, I go out to the Android forum.

This isn't a site that people self selected to join because they had a problem. This is a site dedicated to Disney fans. The vast majority of people here are Disney FANS. They Love Disney, they love everything Disney. This isn't a customer support thread. There are some people here who if Disney burned down the castle would defend it, in some way. I don't think there is anyone here who wouldn't take a WDW vacation if they were given one. Bias on the boards is to favour Disney and their decisions.

That's not how this works, you should probably reread the rest of the conversation between NavyDad and I. The vastly obvious bias on these boards is to be supportive of Disney and all things Disney. Now, Navy and I started to talk about whether that applies to the theme parks Strategies sub-board. Navy was probably right that it is the most negative sub-thread on these boards. But the first step in joining these forums is to self select to do so, which is mostly fans of WDW, of course, there are first timers who come here, but even they are a sub-section of all first timers, who are engaged/excited/dedicated enough to find these threads and register on them.

As Mom2rtk notes, and many others have, there have been negative threads on the boards before, but nothing to this extent. I haven't been around here long enough to know, but several people who have have noted there has been nothing this consistent or long in duration in the way of complaints about changes at WDW. This is something different.

 

[goofyernmost]

Too many people are trying to do the same thing because there aren't enough new things to keep up with the growing crowds. That's not an inevitable outgrowth of attendance increases. It's a result of choices Disney made to hold back in investing in new attractions.

If addition of net new attractions had kept up with attendance increases, those people would be spread out among new things. That approach worked beautifully at DLR. I'm not sure why they chose such a different approach for WDW.

I suppose that is true, but, I can't help but thinking that at some point all new investment in quantity has to stop. Not only does it have physical limits, but, the return is not justified. Yes, I know everyone likes to believe that Disney isn't a business and that it is there just to stimulate our senses, hang the expense. That isn't what I was referring to completely anyway. There comes a time when a business gets so big that it cannot continue on out of control. That would be no matter how many new attractions are put on line, the crowd still exists and theoretically will expand with additional attractions. It still needed a system to deal with the shear volume of people that show up there on a daily basis. And if there are a few attractions that are more likely to draw people, then those attractions and facilities have to be managed which sometimes complicates matters for those of us that want to experience it. Nothing gets simpler by making it larger. WDW is a living example of the fact that bigger does not necessarily mean simpler in so many areas.

 

[goofyernmost]

I feel like a big problem for the parks these days is just the sheer amount of people visiting all at once. Maybe it was because I was a child but it certainly didn't feel like there were as many people in the 90's and early 2000's (lol I sound like an old fart. Like, "back in my day!")

So either way I think the wait times would be cray with the old fp or this new one. It's just the fact that you have to stand around longer now, with or without planning your day.

Also, California adventure SUCKED when it first opened. Now I hear Disneyland and CA are the best parks evar! So I haven't lost hope that wdw can make wdw amazing too lol. (though I still love it anyway.)

There are advantages of being an "old Fart". I do see the difference in crowds from even before that. Yes, it was simpler back then, but, it didn't have anywhere near the demand either. What creates the problem for Disney is the people that show up. Without them there is no complexity at all. Course without them there is no income either, so that might be a problem.

The other problem with just throwing out the idea of more attractions is that there are already plenty of attractions in the parks (with a couple of exceptions), however, the problem is that only a few of those are extremely popular and without being able to direct crowd flow to some of the less popular ones the line of all those people extends from those attractions all the way out to the parking lot. There had to be a way to balance that out and they have come up with at least a temporary solution by sending them to rides that normally wouldn't need FP's. It's all to make it easier to see the more popular ones. It is hard to wrap ones brain around but, in its own way it does make sense.

 

[MrInfinity]

As Mom2rtk notes, and many others have, there have been negative threads on the boards before, but nothing to this extent. I haven't been around here long enough to know, but several people who have have noted there has been nothing this consistent or long in duration in the way of complaints about changes at WDW. This is something different.

Well, FP+ (and MM+ in general) is really the biggest change to hit WDW in modern times. It is bigger than the ADR cancellation change. It is bigger than the enforcement of return windows. It is cause for a complete and utter change in how to be in the group of ppl that tour optimally. It's that big, and thus it draws the most fervent opposition from those who oppose. It's not some majority that dislikes it, it's just that for some who dislike it, it's a very strong dislike. So much so that even if one comes out to tell about a wonderful trip they had, it would be cause for some people to chime in "that's great that you had a great time, but I really didn't". The same FP- users who would have disliked the enforcement of return windows - will dislike this even more.

And it's a tough change to take for that group that was REALLY set in how they'd learned to tour the parks. Some people really came to think of Disney World in terms of how they pulled their FastPass- tickets to be ahead of the crowd. That is suddenly -- gone. To them, that is not just how the rode a ride, but that was a big part of Disney. To me, it was just a ticket system. I really couldn't care less, and I can make FP+ work just fine. So I like it. It makes my trips more relaxing to not have to compete for the tickets in the park, and I actually enjoy doing it ahead of time (shrug).

 

[Cormoran]

There are advantages of being an "old Fart". I do see the difference in crowds from even before that. Yes, it was simpler back then, but, it didn't have anywhere near the demand either. What creates the problem for Disney is the people that show up. Without them there is no complexity at all. Course without them there is no income either, so that might be a problem.

The other problem with just throwing out the idea of more attractions is that there are already plenty of attractions in the parks (with a couple of exceptions), however, the problem is that only a few of those are extremely popular and without being able to direct crowd flow to some of the less popular ones the line of all those people extends from those attractions all the way out to the parking lot. There had to be a way to balance that out and they have come up with at least a temporary solution by sending them to rides that normally wouldn't need FP's. It's all to make it easier to see the more popular ones. It is hard to wrap ones brain around but, in its own way it does make sense.

WDW has the property and the park goers to add new attractions, if they wanted to. Instead they invested in a ride rationing system. IMO their priorities are skewed.

 

[Alfalfa]

Legacy was a hybrid where you had to physically queue prior to virtually queue. Plus has a much more virtual element in it but I agree that they have (smartly) added crowd flow and capacity management elements to it.

Exactly. The patent for FP+ was built around capacity management. An excerpt:

"Knowing the available capacity of the experience at a given time can be useful and advantageous for a variety of reasons, including, for example, when the guest arrives at the experience before the time window for his appointment. When the guest's ticket communicates with the computer at the experience, the computer at the experience and/or guest experience manager are notified of the guest's arrival. In this example, the computer at the experience and/or the guest experience manager may check the available capacity of the experience. If the available capacity is below a certain threshold or value, based on specified factors, such as, for example the number of guests at the experience, the popularity of the experience, the time of day (e.g. ramp-up or ramp-down periods in the day), the presence of other events nearby that might affect the crowd at the experience (such as a parade), etc., the guest may be allowed to enter the experience early. Similarly, knowing the available capacity, wait times, number of guests visiting, etc., of each experience can be useful for inventory management of the theme park, as well as for forecasting or projection of future attendance, predicting peak hours for the experience, etc."

Theme park yield management on steroids.

 

[mom2rtk]

I suppose that is true, but, I can't help but thinking that at some point all new investment in quantity has to stop. Not only does it have physical limits, but, the return is not justified. Yes, I know everyone likes to believe that Disney isn't a business and that it is there just to stimulate our senses, hang the expense. That isn't what I was referring to completely anyway. There comes a time when a business gets so big that it cannot continue on out of control. That would be no matter how many new attractions are put on line, the crowd still exists and theoretically will expand with additional attractions. It still needed a system to deal with the shear volume of people that show up there on a daily basis. And if there are a few attractions that are more likely to draw people, then those attractions and facilities have to be managed which sometimes complicates matters for those of us that want to experience it. Nothing gets simpler by making it larger. WDW is a living example of the fact that bigger does not necessarily mean simpler in so many areas.

If there are limits to the attractions that can be added, then they probably should quit investing time and money in their marketing department to bring in more bodies. Better stop building new DVC as well.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Epcot and Animal Kingdom were done by 2pm. Magic Kingdom was the anamoly as we arrived that day, our last one was around 5pm.

While there were FP+ reservations available, we aren't going to hang around the parks for Winnie the Pooh or Spaceship Earth. We could have grabbed a pass for Space Mountain that first day, buy it was nearly 3 hours later and the standby lines for what would be out usual time filler rides were just too long (for us).

We are still enjoying our time in the parks, but our ride production is definitely down. That, coupled with a few non FP+ related issues will probably relegate WDW an every other year or so park.

Thanks for answering me! The more reports I read, the more it seems like if you want a 4th FP+ or beyond, your initial 3 need to be done by probably 1pm at the latest.

I think we fall squarely into into the middle of the love/hate argument.

That sums us up pretty well too

 

[wdwgirl72]

Not a huge fan...One thing that is frustrating is the fastpass lines are sometimes as long as the stand by..Some people seem to have trouble just scanning their wristband, so the line gets backed up!

 

[Angel Ariel]

The other problem with just throwing out the idea of more attractions is that there are already plenty of attractions in the parks (with a couple of exceptions), however, the problem is that only a few of those are extremely popular and without being able to direct crowd flow to some of the less popular ones the line of all those people extends from those attractions all the way out to the parking lot.

There are plenty of attractions in MK. Which is, IMO, why FP+ works better there than in any of the other parks. I think FP+ would work better in the other parks as well if those parks had the attraction capacity to support it.

 

[Planogirl]

They are already changing things. They are in a huge growth period right now. You are exactly right about HP and that is my point. The EP system does not work well with high demand attractions. HP is the first time that UO has ever seen demand that is similar to WDW.

Their new high demand attractions do not work with EP. Their new hotels do not offer the same EP benefits becasuse as they expand their room capacity they can't continue to sustain EP. I could look it up but I imagine their room capacity will still be a fraction of WDW even after the new hotel is built. If they ever came close to WDW in that regard EP would become less and less sustainable....

They are not allowing Express Pass usage for their moderate resorts and I doubt that they'll change anything when it comes to the deluxes but who knows. I agree that high demand can cause problems while those attractions are still hot but that too could change. It'll be interesting to see how they go forward.

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That's funny, because yesterday at MK I could have got just about anything except Anna and Elsa as a fourth FP - I chose to ride Seven Dwarfs Mine Train for a second time - and today I could have got Seven Dwarfs Mine train again, for 7.15-8.15pm but it's been a big week and the Magical Express is picking me up at 3.55am tomorrow so I decided a relaxing afternoon of lying around the pool and/or my hotel room was the way to go. I rode Winnie the Pooh as my fourth (with pretty much immediate availability, even though there was a 50 minute wait). Then I came back to the hotel.

We had little trouble getting most things at MK last week. Epcot was definitely a different story though. We didn't go to DHS and visited AK only in the morning so I can't comment on those.

If you don't mind my asking, what do you do outside of the parks? This last trip we hopped more than usual and spent less time in the parks overall, and I found that I ended up spending just as much if not more money! We ate more resort TS meals, we shopped/enjoyed the lounge at the resort, we played in the arcade. I really wonder if less park time = less money spent for most people. Your ticket is a fixed price whether you spend 3 hours or 12 hours, and the offerings of the WDW resort as a whole mostly have costs associated with them. I guess if everyone is just lounging by the pool they'll spend less, only that didn't work for us since the pool bar is right there, haha

I think that we are definitely spending more money because we are doing way more offsite now and that adds up quickly. But even playing mini-golf or bowling onsite or just shopping at Downtown Disney can become costly.

 

[Mickey&Mouse]

The interesting thing is that I've been on the DIS for a number of years. There have always been negative threads, but nothing like what there has been recently. I wonder if there's something new in the parks prompting that change. Hmmm......

I have been noticing all the negative threads too. There used to be none or very few. I have been a member of these boards for 12 years. Definitely very interesting!!

I've also noticed the spike in negative/critical threads during the last year or so. Curiouser and curiouser.....

 

[Alfalfa]

I've also noticed the spike in negative/critical threads during the last year or so. Curiouser and curiouser.....

And not just on these DIS boards, which are ranked third in terms of internet presence. I've noticed the same trend on the top two WDW forum sites.

 

[Mickey&Mouse]

And not just on these DIS boards, which are ranked third in terms of internet presence. I've noticed the same trend on the top two WDW forum sites.

Even more telling.

 

[Cormoran]

I've also noticed the spike in negative/critical threads during the last year or so. Curiouser and curiouser.....

I don't think everyone is going to accept/embrace FP plus. I also don't believe it's here to stay. MDE will remain, but not FP plus. Disney is never going to succeed in convincing the majority of their guests that making ride reservations is a good thing. I know that a lot of people are happy with FP plus, but there is also a lot of dissatisfaction.

 

[Cormoran]

And not just on these DIS boards, which are ranked third in terms of internet presence. I've noticed the same trend on the top two WDW forum sites.

Which are the top 2 sites?