FP+... who hates it

[jade1]

Ah. I see. I thought that those screens were from AK. Still, a 6:00 return time at 8:45 a.m. suggests that spaces are running out.

Which one are you referring to?

Those are in park kiosks.

 

[Mickey&Mouse]

Not true for us.

Jade, while it's always nice to see your photos of the kiosk screens, the first question that pops into my head each time is: how many people are in your party? I did ask you this on another thread, I think pertaining to the MK one. Without searching for the thread, I think you replied that it was for a party of 2, but that your party size varied during your trip. Anyway, it would be really useful if you posted the party size with the photos, just to give an idea on availability of FP's for a particular party size. It's kind of like looking at the TP Lines app for FP availability, but it's only listing what's available for a party of 1. We're a party of 6, so I'm guessing that our options for subsequent FP's after the first 3 will be very limited. Additionally, larger parties entering the parks with newly purchased tickets may find fewer choices based simply on their party size.

 

[jade1]

Jade, while it's always nice to see your photos of the kiosk screens, the first question that pops into my head each time is: how many people are in your party? I did ask you this on another thread, I think pertaining to the MK one. Without searching for the thread, I think you replied that it was for a party of 2, but that your party size varied during your trip. Anyway, it would be really useful if you posted the party size with the photos, just to give an idea on availability of FP's for a particular party size. It's kind of like looking at the TP Lines app for FP availability, but it's only listing what's available for a party of 1. We're a party of 6, so I'm guessing that our options for subsequent FP's after the first 3 will be very limited. Additionally, larger parties entering the parks with newly purchased tickets may find fewer choices based simply on their party size.

Yes 2 one day and 4 (we had up to 9 bands and reserved some the evenings before)-so 6 is up in the air, when are you going? and are you planning to just go to the park and check? Or reserving ahead.

I recommend reserving ahead.

As for XMAS Eve we reserved 7 for XMAS day-RNR/TOT/TSM.

This was last minute as well, but on the app the night before.

Hers another.

 

[Mickey&Mouse]

Yes 2 one day and 4 (we had up to 9 bands and reserved some the evenings before)-so 6 is up in the air, when are you going? and are you planning to just go to the park and check? Or reserving ahead.

I recommend reserving ahead.

As for XMAS Eve we reserved 7 for XMAS day-RNR/TOT/TSM.

This was last minute as well, but on the app the night before.

We're going in mid-May and have already reserved our FP's; however, some friends will be meeting us during our trip and will be purchasing their tickets at the gate. So trying to coordinate similar FP's will be a challenge/impossible. I was also curious about what's available as the day progresses- for subsequent FP's.

 

[jade1]

We're going in mid-May and have already reserved our FP's; however, some friends will be meeting us during our trip and will be purchasing their tickets at the gate. So trying to coordinate similar FP's will be a challenge/impossible. I was also curious about what's available as the day progresses- for subsequent FP's.

I would tell them to buy them online and reserve with yours-probably will match up very close at 30 days.

 

[Mkrop]

And I'll admit that I don't either. What I look at is the thread on the Strategies Board about the woman who hadn't been to WDW for 30 years and got flustered about the complexities of planning her trip and I look at threads where people talk about throwaway room strategies and staying up until midnight to book FPs and then I ask myself which type of person is more common. I don't know. But I have my hunches.

The last two people I helped had no idea there was this much planning involved. One had not been since 1994. She went on her trip and was extremely grateful I walked her through the FP+ process and told her about being able to change what they gave you to other things. She is not a disney junkie like the rest of us but one of her kids had never been and she wanted to take him. The other one has not been since she was a kid, she is in her 20s, and I still think she doubts it is this complicated, she has not done her FPs yet. She was floored when she tried to book a Presidents Day Week trip in Jan that everything was booked for ADRs and FPs. She moved her trip.

 

[Cormoran]

The last two people I helped had no idea there was this much planning involved. One had not been since 1994. She went on her trip and was extremely grateful I walked her through the FP+ process and told her about being able to change what they gave you to other things. She is not a disney junkie like the rest of us but one of her kids had never been and she wanted to take him. The other one has not been since she was a kid, she is in her 20s, and I still think she doubts it is this complicated, she has not done her FPs yet. She was floored when she tried to book a Presidents Day Week trip in Jan that everything was booked for ADRs and FPs. She moved her trip.

So has either one of these people been on their trip? If so, what did they think?

 

[flicx]

Google "The Disney Decade". Puts what they have done lately to SHAME.

Eisner=Expansion of WDW
Iger=Contraction of your wallet.
********************************************************************
http://www.wdwmagic.com/walt-disney-world-history.htm

The Disney Decade

It was not until the decade of the '90s, however, that Disney growth became truly phenomenal. In January 1990, Disney Chairman Michael D. Eisner unveiled an ambitious ten-year building plan. He called it The Disney Decade. By mid-decade attendance passed 500 million guests. Investment increased to five times its 1980 total.

Among major accomplishments of The Disney Decade: • Disney’s Animal Kingdom -- a whole new species of theme park with 13 animal-themed adventures opened in 1998. A greatly expanded Asia section opened in 1999.

• In other parks, '90s attractions included: at Epcot - Innoventions, “Honey, I Shrunk the Audience,” high-speed Test Track and the highly creative Journey Into Your Imagination; at Magic Kingdom - Splash Mountain, “Legend of the Lion King,” The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, Buzz Lightyear’s Space Ranger Spin and New Tomorrowland; at Disney-MGM Studios - Star Tours, “Voyage of the Little Mermaid,” “Jim Henson’s Muppet*Vision 3-D,” “Disney’s Doug Live!”, “Bear in the Big Blue House,” “Sounds Dangerous Starring Drew Carey,” “Fantasmic!”, Sunset Boulevard with The Twilight Zone Tower of Terror™ and Rock 'n' Roller Coaster Starring Aerosmith.

Also completed in the 1990s:

• Ten outstanding resorts in a variety of themes and price ranges plus two new golf courses.

• Disney Vacation Club in three locationswith exceptional opportunities for owning a piece of the magic.

• One additional water adventure park, Blizzard Beach.

• Two miniature golf courses, Fantasia and Winter Summerland.

• Major nighttime entertainment, dining and shopping in three areas of the new Downtown Disney, including DisneyQuest and Cirque du Soleil®.

• Disney’s Wide World of Sports, a complex of playing fields, baseball stadium and fieldhouse.

• Disney Institute, a whole new kind of enrichment vacation for individuals and groups.

• The City of Celebration with innovation in homes, business environment and education.

• Disney Cruise Line, with two ships, the Disney Magic and the Disney Wonder, sailing from Port Canaveral, Fla.

**************************************************************

Granted, all of this was over the span of a decade. But count back 10 years from today and see it you can compile a list of additions anything like this. The most "significant changes" over the past 10 years have been subtractions, not additions. At least it sure seems that way at times.

This is why many of us long time Disney goers see the mm plus system as a colossal waste of money. The decade you have above just demonstrates what can be built and the amount of ride capacity that can be added if Disney wanted to. Instead they went for option "B". That sucks, in my opinion!

 

[Mickey&Mouse]

I would tell them to buy them online and reserve with yours-probably will match up very close at 30 days.

We did tell them to try to purchase their tickets as early as possible, but they won't know until the very last minute how many people from their family are even going. So it's really unavoidable unfortunately.

 

[jade1]

We did tell them to try to purchase their tickets as early as possible, but they won't know until the very last minute how many people from their family are even going. So it's really unavoidable unfortunately.

Well as you can see, we selected for 7 the night before in March-no problems. You might be fine as well.

 

[Mickey&Mouse]

Well as you can see, we selected for 7 the night before in March-no problems. You might be fine as well.

I hope so! We'll definitely keep our fingers crossed for some pixie dust!

 

[johde]

And I'll admit that I don't either. What I look at is the thread on the Strategies Board about the woman who hadn't been to WDW for 30 years and got flustered about the complexities of planning her trip and I look at threads where people talk about throwaway room strategies and staying up until midnight to book FPs and then I ask myself which type of person is more common. I don't know. But I have my hunches.

Is the trouble with this picture FP+ or is the trouble the person stumbled upon a thread dealing with trying to eek out the absolute maximum benefit out of FP+? Supposed instead of FP+ we were dealing with legacy FP and the same person stumbled upon a thread talking about FP runners and disconnected machines and non enforcement of return windows and people coming up with the "plans of attack". Then someone from Disneyland chimed in where for a while some of the "disconnected machines" were conditionally disconnected. For Example,if I remember correctly, if you pulled a FP for BTMRR you could immediately pull a FP for something else. But, if you pulled the other FP first you couldn't pull a BTMRR FP until 2 hours or the return windows started.

At it's heart FP+ is easy, you scan your ticket you get 3 return times. Getting maximum benefit out of FP+ is probably harder than legacy FP but for a certain group of guests at certain times of year, potentially much more rewarding.

 

[Mkrop]

So has either one of these people been on their trip? If so, what did they think?

One of them has gone...she was grateful for all my help. She said the system is way too complicated. She did like having the 3 FPs ahead but found the kiosks lines too long and they went at of end of Oct. She felt some of the other lines were long as well.

 

[goofyernmost]

You are 100% correct. They don't. No company decides to make such a substantial investment so that they can pull the rug out from under themselves. But then, companies are run by people and people sometimes make mistakes. And when they realize that they have made a mistake, they will try to fix it. And if the fix doesn't work or becomes a sunk cost, they will discontinue the effort.

Disney would not be the first large company to abandon a billion dollar initiative because it didn't provide the promised results. That's just good business.

That is far more likely in companies with narrow decision making parameters. With decision by committee, it is much more likely to be kept and tweaked until it works like they wanted it too. It also assumes that it isn't doing what they intended it too. They knew, I'm sure, that they would run into resistance, but, as someone said. This isn't a billion dollar investment for FP+. Fastpass is an important but very small part of the objective of the system. It has much more to do with the basic infrastructure of the entire resort (and eventual other resorts).

Even WDW's own Facebook account was getting slammed with complaints...that is until they started deleting them.

In order to make that matter the "majority" of Disney Guests would have to be following WDW on Facebook. I doubt if every negative post ever posted on Facebook would amount to one half of one percent of the daily attendance of WDW. It seem like a lot because negativity is always loud. Those with no ax to grind, are usually pretty quiet. Judging the overall reaction based on the post count of a few angry people does not a result make. The only result that will ever make a difference is the gate receipts. When and if that ever starts falling, then they will have a reason to react. Until then, I'm convinced that the system is doing exactly what the Walt Disney Company wanted it to do.

 

[Mkrop]

In order to make that matter the "majority" of Disney Guests would have to be following WDW on Facebook. I doubt if every negative post ever posted on Facebook would amount to one half of one percent of the daily attendance of WDW. It seem like a lot because negativity is always loud. Those with no ax to grind, are usually pretty quiet. Judging the overall reaction based on the post count of a few angry people does not a result make. The only result that will ever make a difference is the gate receipts. When and if that ever starts falling, then they will have a reason to react. Until then, I'm convinced that the system is doing exactly what the Walt Disney Company wanted it to do.

IMHO, if it didnt matter and were such a small voice, they would have left the posts on FB. The fact that the deleted them says much more

 

[NavyDad]

Even more telling.

LOL - yes the fact that all three boards filled with people similarly obsessed with Disney share the same trends.... LOL

I think Shaden and I have differing viewpoints on some things but I do believe she fully understands the concepts of self selection bias and has the intellectual curiosity to delve into it a little farther in regards to the DIS.

Anyone who thinks that the DIS or other very popular Disney related message boards is in indicator of how even a plurality of Disney guests feel about anything is not understanding even the basic concept of self selection bias.

In general review sites are going to elicit more negative returns than the overall population would return.

This site and Disney message boards are not basic review sites but basically fan (short for FANATIC) sites that people who are very "crazy" about Disney come together and discuss all things Disney.

Self Selection Bias will not always result in negative returns. However Self Selection will almost ALWAYS return data that is going to represent an extreme minority. That could be an extremely positive minority or negative minority.

A forum that was aimed at strategies to tour Disney Theme parks in the most efficient manner is going to respond to a drastic change in touring mechanics at a MUCH more extreme rate(in this case negative) than the general population of WDW guests.

... Just like people who take the time to do a trip report, take pics of all their food and spill all of their Disney emotions are going to represent a much more extreme viewpoint (in this case mostly positive) than the average WDW guest.

When you add layers of self selection that bias will continue to grow exponentially each time.

THAT is why businesses generally don't use any type of online forum to conduct market research and instead depend on scientific polling.

As I said before that doesn't mean a very vocal minority doesn't have influence. Vocal minorities get stuff done!

 

[NavyDad]

That is far more likely in companies with narrow decision making parameters. With decision by committee, it is much more likely to be kept and tweaked until it works like they wanted it too. It also assumes that it isn't doing what they intended it too. They knew, I'm sure, that they would run into resistance, but, as someone said. This isn't a billion dollar investment for FP+. Fastpass is an important but very small part of the objective of the system. It has much more to do with the basic infrastructure of the entire resort (and eventual other resorts).


In order to make that matter the "majority" of Disney Guests would have to be following WDW on Facebook. I doubt if every negative post ever posted on Facebook would amount to one half of one percent of the daily attendance of WDW. It seem like a lot because negativity is always loud. Those with no ax to grind, are usually pretty quiet. Judging the overall reaction based on the post count of a few angry people does not a result make. The only result that will ever make a difference is the gate receipts. When and if that ever starts falling, then they will have a reason to react. Until then, I'm convinced that the system is doing exactly what the Walt Disney Company wanted it to do.

Somebody gets it!

 

[flicx]

Totally writing off feedback from this site is just plain silly. Considering this site has close to a half million members I think some important information can be formulated by Disney. Especially if they are looking for veterans opinions. Now if you add in all the fan sites together and similar results are across the board, I think it is a real problem. Just my opinion!

 

[Mickey&Mouse]

LOL - yes the fact that all three boards filled with people similarly obsessed with Disney share the same trends.... LOL

I think Shaden and I have differing viewpoints on some things but I do believe she fully understands the concepts of self selection bias and has the intellectual curiosity to delve into it a little farther in regards to the DIS.

Anyone who thinks that the DIS or other very popular Disney related message boards is in indicator of how even a plurality of Disney guests feel about anything is not understanding even the basic concept of self selection bias.

In general review sites are going to elicit more negative returns than the overall population would return.

This site and Disney message boards are not basic review sites but basically fan (short for FANATIC) sites that people who are very "crazy" about Disney come together and discuss all things Disney.

Self Selection Bias will not always result in negative returns. However Self Selection will almost ALWAYS return data that is going to represent an extreme minority. That could be an extremely positive minority or negative minority.

A forum that was aimed at strategies to tour Disney Theme parks in the most efficient manner is going to respond to a drastic change in touring mechanics at a MUCH more extreme rate(in this case negative) than the general population of WDW guests.

... Just like people who take the time to do a trip report, take pics of all their food and spill all of their Disney emotions are going to represent a much more extreme viewpoint (in this case mostly positive) than the average WDW guest.

When you add layers of self selection that bias will continue to grow exponentially each time.

THAT is why businesses generally don't use any type of online forum to conduct market research and instead depend on scientific polling.

As I said before that doesn't mean a very vocal minority doesn't have influence. Vocal minorities get stuff done!

Thanks for the info on Self Selection Bias! Really what we were taking note of was the recent (last 1-2 yrs) spike in negative/critical threads here on the DIS and on other Disney fan sites. It's noticeable to people that have been following and/or posting on these boards for many years.


Here's part of the exchange:

The interesting thing is that I've been on the DIS for a number of years. There have always been negative threads, but nothing like what there has been recently. I wonder if there's something new in the parks prompting that change. Hmmm......

I have been noticing all the negative threads too. There used to be none or very few. I have been a member of these boards for 12 years. Definitely very interesting!!

I've also noticed the spike in negative/critical threads during the last year or so. Curiouser and curiouser.....

And not just on these DIS boards, which are ranked third in terms of internet presence. I've noticed the same trend on the top two WDW forum sites.

Even more telling.

Speaking for myself, I've been following the DIS since 2008. Yes, the negative threads have always existed, but really nothing compared to recent times- IMO. It's also the longtime DIS veterans that make it hit home for me. Posters that have been on since the very early days of the DIS that are lamenting the recent decisions such as FP+. People with AP's that are not renewing. People that would go several times a year that have cut back drastically. Then you have newspaper articles such as the one from the Boston Globe essentially summarizing what we've been saying all along: over-planning, over-scheduled, less spontaneous, etc. Plus the comments following the newspaper article which repeat the same negative impressions. Then there's the anecdotal stories of people talking to family, friends, co-workers, acquaintances, and others about WDW vacations and the reactions they get in return: over-planning, over-scheduled, less spontaneous, etc.

So while Self Selection Bias could certainly apply to the fan sites, it is very interesting indeed that some of the fan site population has taken note of a change in the wind within their own forums.

 

[Mickey&Mouse]

Totally writing off feedback from this site is just plain silly. Considering this site has close to a half million members I think some important information can be formulated by Disney. Especially if they are looking for veterans opinions. Now if you add in all the fan sites together and similar results are across the board, I think it is a real problem. Just my opinion!

Completely agree with this!