Formula to figure out true cost per point

Also, need to figure in the tax implications to buying DVC in your calculations. For instance, the Real Estate Tax portion of DVC you can claim
on taxes (If itemizing). If Financing the DVC, you also figure in the interest as a second home. Those factors need to be figured in your
calculations as well.
 
My question to you is - if you are buying at $16.8pp, wouldn't you be better off renting points from a member to save money. Or you should buy a 25 point resale and transfer in points as you need them.
I agree with you here. It is cheaper to rent than to buy, but this makes sense. When renting you are depending on someone else. You lack the certainty of owning your own reservation. I would personally never rent from a stranger. There's just no way I could show up in Disney World with our large party and find out my owner disappeared or something happened and I didn't own my own reservation. If it was just my wife and I or something, maybe. But not as we are now.
I personally think 7% interest over 40 years is very high, but that is my opinion.
Sure. I posed the range of 5%-10% as all reasonable. 7% is middle-ish. Look at stocks over any time period. DIS stock in the last 5 years has averaged 15%. That's double the 7% I use. A financial advisor might set goals of 8%-10%, so I use 7% for an after-tax realistic income.
Rentals are very fluid, so if you know you are going to be going to Disney World for many years, you are better off buying. If you assume BLT points are about $17/pt/yr then you will come out ahead vs renting within 3-4 years, once those points most likely go for $18-20.
I agree. Thus, we bought. Despite the real cost being $16.8pp. You are purchasing something... not simply getting the rental equivalent. I have the full flexibility to book what I want when I want it, not find someone to rent, finegle over price, how to pay, hope they don't screw it up, etc. There is more work and risk involved in renting.
Frankly, the question on renting points isn't about saving money - the renting points question is a matter of risk and value. Owning carries some financial risk, renting carries some risks as well. Owning provides certain types of value - the ability to control your own points. Renting provides different kinds of value - home resort booking windows if you can find an owner.
Agree here too. Renting vs buying is not a matter of simply "which is cheaper". Buying DVC is more of a lifestyle choice. You are forgoing more profitable uses for your cash to buy vacations.
If you have to save money over renting points for DVC to work for you, you can't afford DVC. If you need the numbers to work for you in any way, you can't afford DVC. Dean will say that you shouldn't buy if it doesn't make financial sense, and there is truth in that - but you also should be very wary of purchasing because of the way the numbers work. Its easy to make them lie.
People do it all the time.
The problem I have is the addition of $1,680 in interest fees per year. I fully understand how this is calculated (but disagree with using 7%) and if you strip the interest out, the cost of BLT in that example is more like $8.46pp
Ok so why would you strip the interest out? Don't think of it as interest you're paying. But income that your money would earn if you didn't buy DVC. You would do SOMETHING with it right? Unless you would put it in a bank or bury it in the back yard, which maybe some would. But anyone else would do something. Whether it's a safe dividend-paying stock that will earn you 5%, or a little more growth stock that might earn you 7-10%, or you're aggressive and buy the next Amazon or Ebay and earn 20-50%, your money would earn something. Pick your rate. Whatever rate. But don't pick 0% like you'd just put your $40k in a box and leave it.
 
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People do it all the time.

The scariest thing is that these sorts of analysis are fine for those that are financially savvy. Those of us that are can decide if 7% is realistic, or if its too conservative or too aggressive, based on our own portfolios and our own tolerance for risk and historical return. We understand the risk. We ask ourselves the financial questions all the time. So we have a pretty good idea when the story being told doesn't add up.

But I guarantee there is someone reading this thread who lacks the financial knowledge to evaluate and as a result will make a bad financial decision because they don't have the slush to work with if they use aggressive numbers and reality should have had them using conservative ones. They often don't speak up for fear of sounding stupid, but they read and take it - and generally experience confirmation bias.
 
Ok so why would you strip the interest out? Don't think of it as interest you're paying. But income that your money would earn if you didn't buy DVC. You would do SOMETHING with it right? Unless you would put it in a bank or bury it in the back yard, which maybe some would. But anyone else would do something. Whether it's a safe dividend-paying stock that will earn you 5%, or a little more growth stock that might earn you 7-10%, or you're aggressive and buy the next Amazon or Ebay and earn 20-50%, your money would earn something. Pick your rate. Whatever rate. But don't pick 0% like you'd just put your $40k in a box and leave it.

There are many people reading here buying only tiny contracts and adding on as they can with their normal vacation funds or some "found" money, etc....maybe buying 50 points resale for 5K. Then adding 25 direct the next year instead of buying a new couch or something. I don't know, but it's not 40K for everyone and they may not be keeping it in a box, but probably just a savings account earning pretty close to 0 because if they didn't buy DVC with it, they'd be spending it on something else "frivolous".
 
"MrInfinity" posted an BLT example: 200pts @ $120pp = $16.80pp cost

The problem I have is the addition of $1,680 in interest fees per year. I fully understand how this is calculated (but disagree with using 7%) and if you strip the interest out, the cost of BLT in that example is more like $8.46pp

This is NOT making numbers LIE, it is about how to determine the true cost of a DVC membership and it is obvious that different people use different methods.

I personally allocate very little to the interest rate, unless you are financing it with a loan (can be up to 14%), as my discretionary money in the bank is making less than 1%

There are tons of ways to determine the cost of points and I personally think the simple method is the best as there are so many unknown variables. Ultimately buying DVC is about pre-paid or discounted vacations and it is not an investment, but I understand the different ways to measure an investment, but not sure timeshares should be as rigid or detailed, unless you are buying DVC to rent points as a business and not for personal use.

Based on my past investment acumen, my interest rate should be negative 10%...seeing as I seem to always short the bull markets and vice versa. So DVC has EARNED me money as far as I'm concerned. :crutches:
 
It sometimes is so easy to fall into some of the negative DVC spin on here, that you start believing what people are saying...that you'd be silly to buy into DVC. We own at VGF, and most recently purchased another 100 points at Copper Creek. The reason? Because it saves us a bundle. I could have financed my original purchase through Disney (which is frowned on). So I didn't. But just for arguments' sake, if I had, according to the figures they layed out to me, I would have been paying approximately $2000 and small change per year for the 100 points we rented. Those 100 points allow us to book a studio at the Grand Floridian once per year. Our maintenance fees on those 100 points are $560.16, for a total of a smidge more than $2560 outlay per year. (Granted I put down $3000 as a deposit, but I also got an extra year of points loaded into my contract at purchase). In order to book for the same 5 nights we are staying in April, it would cost me $3600 to book a standard hotel room the the Grand Floridian, that is smaller and less equipped than my villa. So every single year, I'm saving money...and if I financed, after 10 years, $2000 of that yearly expense goes away. So I'm paying only maintenance fees (now $560, but higher in the future)...for a accommodations that are worth (we check every year just to remind ourselves how well we're doing) between $3,000 and $5,000 dollars.

Any formula that adds interest isn't taking into account that if you took and paid for the same vacation per year, that acquisition price is gone pretty quickly. So for the $15k my acquisition was...you can do 5% interest on 12k for the first year (because you would have spent at least 3k for the vacation), 9k for the 2nd year years, 6k, for the 3rd year, 3k for the 4th year, and that's it. That's an extraordinarily insignificant amount of money spread over the 50 years of ownership.

Sometimes I feel some of you aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

The above doesn't even take into account the boatload we save on Passes, dining, merchandise, etc. etc. Just my 2 cents.
 
It sometimes is so easy to fall into some of the negative DVC spin on here, that you start believing what people are saying...that you'd be silly to buy into DVC.
I'm not sure what forums you're seeing this on, but I haven't seen anyone say that buying into DVC is silly. In fact most people on this board, including people who are likely to be critical of your analysis, love their DVC purchase. But then again, I wouldn't expect to see many people in the "Purchsing DVC" DISboard saying buying into DVC is silly. That would be just trolling.
We own at VGF, and most recently purchased another 100 points at Copper Creek. The reason? Because it saves us a bundle. I could have financed my original purchase through Disney (which is frowned on). So I didn't. But just for arguments' sake, if I had, according to the figures they layed out to me, I would have been paying approximately $2000 and small change per year for the 100 points we rented.
A DVC guide is probably not the most objective source for a financial analysis of the value of buying into DVC. I don't know if you're using data from when you bought in to VGF, but maintenance fees are presently at $590 for 100 points and are proposed to go up again to $613 in 2018. Those dues will keep going up and will dwarf the cost of the initial buy in.
Those 100 points allow us to book a studio at the Grand Floridian once per year. Our maintenance fees on those 100 points are $560.16, for a total of a smidge more than $2560 outlay per year. (Granted I put down $3000 as a deposit, but I also got an extra year of points loaded into my contract at purchase). In order to book for the same 5 nights we are staying in April, it would cost me $3600 to book a standard hotel room the the Grand Floridian, that is smaller and less equipped than my villa. So every single year, I'm saving money...and if I financed, after 10 years, $2000 of that yearly expense goes away. So I'm paying only maintenance fees (now $560, but higher in the future)...for a accommodations that are worth (we check every year just to remind ourselves how well we're doing) between $3,000 and $5,000 dollars.

Any formula that adds interest isn't taking into account that if you took and paid for the same vacation per year, that acquisition price is gone pretty quickly. So for the $15k my acquisition was...you can do 5% interest on 12k for the first year (because you would have spent at least 3k for the vacation), 9k for the 2nd year years, 6k, for the 3rd year, 3k for the 4th year, and that's it. That's an extraordinarily insignificant amount of money spread over the 50 years of ownership.
In terms of the financing, you can't just disregard the cost of the financing because of the running savings you are getting from visiting WDW each year (which comparing to rack rates on the hotel side is a bit dubious to start). But after 10 years, you will have paid 33% more in interest on that money than if you had paid cash. Financing on those kinds of terms is not frowned upon without reason. Again, no one can make the argument that it's not the right choice for you, or that all the happiness you will experience going to WDW isn't worth it, but the criticisms of financing are not baseless or without merit.
Sometimes I feel some of you aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

The above doesn't even take into account the boatload we save on Passes, dining, merchandise, etc. etc. Just my 2 cents.
I would argue that those who are critical of the claim that, financially, DVC is a great place to put your money, actually have more clarity about what they're buying into than someone who sees only the positive aspects from their relationship with DVD.

Like you, I love my DVC membership. I love that I'll be going to the park more often and creating great family memories. I'm excited about all the new attractions that are coming to the park. It's a big reason why I bought in. But as an exercise, looking at the 10 years prior to buying into DVC, how many trips did you take to WDW? Now look at the years since buying into DVC, how many trips have you taken? How many future trips do you have lined up over the next few years?

None of this is to say DVC isn't worth it. In fact, I think it's a great and I wish I would've bought sooner. But I don't think you can make the argument that you'll be "saving money" if the number of trips you now take as DVC member deviates from how you traveled to WDW prior to DVC.

DVD is in the business of making money. Period. They are one of the most profitable wings of the Disney Empire. Disney is publicly traded company, and is beholden to it's shareholders to ensure DVD's continued success. That success relies on CMs in the parks who get people in the midst of their most magical vacation ever to take a tour; guides who, on that tour, sell the idea of living this magic over and over again, year after year. Most importantly, that success relies on people like you and me who actually see the value in returning to the parks with our kids; people who see the value in inviting our parents who maybe couldn't afford this sort of luxury when they were busy making sure we grow up to be successful adults; people who value the enjoyment of friends around us who we will generously bring in to experience what we love most about Disney.

All that said, it's a great luxury timeshare. Not a great case for where to put your money. And I see the forest just fine.
 
If someone offered you $40,000 now or $1,000/year for 40 years which would you take? This is obvious, right? You don't simply divide your cost by the # of years and say "it's like paying 1/40th of that per year for 40 years". $40,000, at even 5% interest is worth around 6x that over 40 years! The up front cost is a tiny fraction of your actual cost. For example if you have 40 years on your deal, $40k might be $1,000 per year for the capitol. True. But you have to add in 5%-10% interest. Where you pick in that range depends on you, but I use a medium 7%. Which means your cost is not $1,000 per year, it's your maintenance fees, plus $1,000 per year capital plus $2,800 interest. The interest is around 3X as important as the capital yet everyone overlooks this. That's why Disney sells these things. Getting your $40k now is so much more valuable than getting say $5k per year from you for vacations.

A simple formula accounting for time might be:
CPY = M*P + C/Y + I
CPY: Cost Per Year
M: Maintenance & Taxes
P: # of Points
C: Capital
Y: Years
I: Interest

Interest will be broken down further: I = C*R

Where we consider R, your interest, somewhere around 0.1 if you're financing, 0.05 if you're not, or more likely somewhere in between.

In total,
CPY = M*P + C/Y + C*R

A BLT example:
200pts @ $120pp
M = 5.6
P = 200
C = 24,000
Y = 42
R = .07

CPY will be 5.6*200 + 24,000/42 + 24,000*0.07
Which is 1,120 + 571 + 1,680
In total, $3,371 per year. Or /200, $16.8 per point per year.

If you ignore the time value of money you will understate your real costs by almost half, depending on the value you pick for R.

There are other factors like if you would deduct a part of M off your income, loaded points, and closing costs, but these are small and don't change much.

Hm. I guess it doesn't take into account if you actually resell your contract, which I plan on doing when the kids are a little older (in another 10 years?). If I resell and recoup the original principal, would the equation change? Obviously the formula is accurate if you keep the contract until expiration (and if you can get 7% in your investments, which I don't... I suck at investing).
 
Hm. I guess it doesn't take into account if you actually resell your contract, which I plan on doing when the kids are a little older (in another 10 years?). If I resell and recoup the original principal, would the equation change? Obviously the formula is accurate if you keep the contract until expiration (and if you can get 7% in your investments, which I don't... I suck at investing).

That's the salvage value. Conservatively you should plan on the salvage value being little or nothing - but if you want to put something in there, its a valid accounting technique. My crystal ball on what the economy will be doing in ten years to say what my DVC will sell for is broken though, so I use zero and if I get salvage value - that's like a gift at the sale of the contract.
 
That's the salvage value. Conservatively you should plan on the salvage value being little or nothing - but if you want to put something in there, its a valid accounting technique. My crystal ball on what the economy will be doing in ten years to say what my DVC will sell for is broken though, so I use zero and if I get salvage value - that's like a gift at the sale of the contract.

I used your very awesome formula (I'm not a math person) to calculate my costs, and it looks like my BLT is at $14.50 if I were to buy my contract today at the price that I got it at a few years ago, so renting it out at that price is break even.

Given that the market is at about $15pp, its probably better to rent than buy at this point (particularly since the prices in the resale market are very high IMO) UNLESS you feel the need to control your reservations (which I like doing!). Thank you so much for your insight!!
 
I think the most valid financial comparisons are those that compare the various ways of purchasing DVC (ie direct vs. resale and cash vs. finance). You can also compare purchase vs. renting, but that becomes a little more convoluted. When you rent you don't capitalize on the discounts available to owners, and somehow that savings rarely makes it into the analysis. For example, this year our family saved $1,400 on our Annual Passes using the DVC Member discount. That all but wipes out the 7% projected ROI if I were to invest the money and rent instead. And to that point, who really has the discipline to put their DVC purchase money into an investment account and use the annual returns to rent points for that year's vacation?

The fact of the matter is that you will ALWAYS save more money not buying something than buying something. But if that were truly the case, we would all be walking to work naked and returning "home" to a corner of the woods that we claimed for ourselves until someone notices we are there. Hyperbole no doubt, but you get the point.
 
I think the most valid financial comparisons are those that compare the various ways of purchasing DVC (ie direct vs. resale and cash vs. finance). You can also compare purchase vs. renting, but that becomes a little more convoluted. When you rent you don't capitalize on the discounts available to owners, and somehow that savings rarely makes it into the analysis. For example, this year our family saved $1,400 on our Annual Passes using the DVC Member discount. That all but wipes out the 7% projected ROI if I were to invest the money and rent instead. And to that point, who really has the discipline to put their DVC purchase money into an investment account and use the annual returns to rent points for that year's vacation?

The fact of the matter is that you will ALWAYS save more money not buying something than buying something. But if that were truly the case, we would all be walking to work naked and returning "home" to a corner of the woods that we claimed for ourselves until someone notices we are there. Hyperbole no doubt, but you get the point.

Those sorts of things are highly variable. I've used an AP discount once in fifteen years for a single ticket (I had a conference in town) - it doesn't fit our travel patterns. We go every other year for less than a week. We seldom have used dining discounts - maybe once. We have bought the TIW card and gotten a few souvenir discounts, but that is about the only perks we've ever used. But buying regular APs is an indication that your profile fits DVC (with some other considerations).

I think putting those sorts of things into consideration post purchase, or even pre purchase, if you are financially savvy, and they fit your profile, is great. But again, its one of those things when the financially unsavvy and emotionally invested try and financially justify DVC can get misused.
 















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