Fighting prejudice against Men...

[Magpie]

My 13yo son gave me something to think about today. He had to head across the city on the bus without a phone, because his sister had it. Before he left I asked him, "Do you know what to if you're in trouble and you need to call me?"

"Find a pay phone?" he asked.

"If you were living in the nineteen eighties, yes, but this is 2011, son!"

"Find a Starbucks, then."

"Or any store, yes," I say. "And if there are no stores around, ask a friendly looking woman. Preferably an older woman. She'll help you."

Immediately my son straightens up, all offended, looking down at me. "THIS attitude is exactly why people don't trust men with children! You're just perpetuating stereotypes against men!"

I laughed (but kindly). Then I asked him, "How many serial killers are women?"

He looked uncertain. "About half of them?"

All I could think was, that boy is SO darn cute! I didn't tell him that, though. Instead I showed him the statistics. He argued that he thinks female rapists are under reported, because everyone thinks men always want it. And I told him that was probably true. But that still doesn't change the stats on serial killers, the vast majority of who are men.

I was just struck by the strength of his reaction.

So... Do you think men are discriminated against in this society? How do your sons/husbands/male family members feel about it? What should I tell my son?

 

[JKMJ441724]

What a slap in the face to me that is!!! I totally "got" where you were going and was totally onboard. That's exactly what I was thinking and what I would have told my kids UNTIL you told me what your son said.

He has a point that I've never considered. I will have to chew on it for a while, but that was something that was put on the Disboards that ACTUALLY made ME THINK.

He may actually cause me to change my mind, and more importantly my actions. Cudos on raising a son who is able to think on his own. I would also have told my children to look for a woman. Now, I will try to be more cautious with the things I say so as not to plant a seed of fear (I'm all for common sense) and being proactive about safety.

 

[cornflake]

Statistically, though, she's correct. I'd tell any child to look for a woman if lost and looking for help. Preferably an older woman.

It's not discrimination, it's playing the odds. If it were some idea that women are safer than men for no particular reason but that they were women and therefore won't harm children, I think that'd be prejudicial.

However, women certainly harm children, just not usually strange ones and older women are even less likely to. So... statistics, not prejudice.

 

[dngnb8]

Funny how profiling is okay for some things, and not others. Im not knocking your profiling, btw, I just wonder why we cant use it for everything.

 

[mpls_mm]

Your 13 year old son has an opinion on rape statistics and thinks that men just want it? Do a lot of people discuss rape with their kids? I can't think when it came up for us, maybe we live in a bubble?

 

[cornflake]

Funny how profiling is okay for some things, and not others. Im not knocking your profiling, btw, I just wonder why we cant use it for everything.

We can and do. Profiling works and is very helpful in many things.

There's a difference in profiling - based on statistics and science - and, say, racial or ethnic profiling, based on prejudice, ignorance, and idiocy.

 

[dngnb8]

We can and do. Profiling works and is very helpful in many things.

There's a difference in profiling - based on statistics and science - and, say, racial or ethnic profiling, based on prejudice, ignorance, and idiocy.

So when statistics show that a problem exists within a race, or ethnicity, what then?

 

[NotUrsula]

Oh, Lord, yes. Society in general negatively stereotypes men far more often than it stereotypes women, and in much more malicious ways.

The serial killer statistics bear out reality in terms of gender likelihood, but if you look at statistics on who most commonly kills young children, it isn't a male stranger. By a fairly wide margin, the most common killers of children under age 5 are their mothers.

Statistically, if you are worried about someone killing your 13 yo son, the scenario of the serial killer (or even just being victimized in any way by an adult male) is actually not the most serious risk. The most common killers of 13 yo boys are actually other teen boys bearing handguns.

 

[Sparx]

So when statistics show that a problem exists within a race, or ethnicity, what then?

Statistics are the most easily manipulated and unreliable of all scientific evidence. But before the statistics are even manipulated the research itself can be. If the GOP for example decides to do a survey of Americans that visit the GOP website about how they feel about the war in iraq and find that an overwhelming 95% of americans are for the war well those statistics are invalid and should be ignored.

Racial, ethnic, gender and socioeconomic status discrimination can be furthered by groups that fund researchers to preform studies like the imaginary one that I used above. The racial bell curve is just one of the most famous examples.

Its not remotely a new concept to use psudo science to further social agendas.

 

[cornflake]

So when statistics show that a problem exists within a race, or ethnicity, what then?

Statistics generally don't show something like that - I mean that's not a good or helpful or usually even studied thing because it's not helpful. Statistics say that most criminals in the U.S. are white. Great, now what?

Profiling is a science and it's quite specific. When used properly, it's been really helpful and advanced our knowledge and saved many lives.

When it's not is when people try racial and ethnic profiling, sometimes trying to use useless or very questionable stats, and do so out of ignorance.

Profiling, as it is a science, also has to be employed by people who know what they're doing. Taking from the OP's example, say, serial killers. They're overwhelmingly male (there's arguably been one female we know of) and they tend to tip toward white, though there are many factors that come into play there and it's a bit arguable as well w/re lining up with population and other specific factors having to do with reporting, socioeconomic factors of the areas they may be operating in, etc., etc.

That doesn't mean that it's safe to just assume a serial killer you're looking for is male. It's very likely the person is. However, using all the profiling factors available together, to gain a fuller picture of a possible suspect, is what works, not just 'well, they're mostly white men so must be a white man.'

 

[cmwade77]

Actually, I think your son may indeed be right, that being said, I wouldn't advise them to go to any stranger, unless they were working a reputable business. (i.e. He shouldn't go into a Liquor Store to ask for help, but rather something he recognizes like Starbucks or any store with a lot of people in it, not one where there are only a couple of people. The more witnesses the better if something were to happen). The exception to this would be someone like a Police officer, fire fighter, etc. they should all be safe to go to.

I do think men are discriminated against unfairly. I also think white people are discriminated against in many cases as well, something we don't think about.

For example, let's say the following people were all applying for a job:
White Male with 10 years of experience
White Female with 5 years of experience
Hispanic Female with 1 year of experience
Black Female with no experience

All come in professionally dressed, interview extremely well and want a reasonable salary.

According to the last two are the most likely to get hired for the job. Why? Because hiring them shows that the person doing the hiring is not discriminating, yet the first two are clearly more qualified.

In many ways it is the same with people we go to ask for help, we go the female because we have been conditioned to do so, but what if it turns out that your son just went up and asked a prostitute for help and there was an off duty police man in plain clothes right next to her.

We should teach our children how to try to look at a person and determine if they are someone they should approach or not when they are having a problem. You can tell a lot by simply looking at a person, watching them, even for about 30 seconds. Watch for tale tale signs, does the person use bad language? Are they dressed inappropriately for where they are? Do they seem nervous?

Watching for these kinds of things can be taught at a very young age. In this day and age you can't simply say ask a woman to help you, you have to be on your guard no matter what. A 90 year old grandma can turn out to be serial killer. Is it likely? No, but it can happen.

 

[cornflake]

I do think men are discriminated against unfairly. I also think white people are discriminated against in many cases as well, something we don't think about.

For example, let's say the following people were all applying for a job:
White Male with 10 years of experience
White Female with 5 years of experience
Hispanic Female with 1 year of experience
Black Female with no experience

All come in professionally dressed, interview extremely well and want a reasonable salary.

According to the last two are the most likely to get hired for the job. Why? Because hiring them shows that the person doing the hiring is not discriminating, yet the first two are clearly more qualified.

I'm sorry, in what universe does that happen? Because here, under the yellow sun, a resume with a stereotypically black-sounding name will get tossed, nevermind called in for an interview.

What you're positing is simply not true, ask the EEOC. Nor, just btw, would hiring someone with less experience who happened to be black or hispanic mean that the person doing the hiring wants to show they're not discriminating. Lordy.

What is it with the Dis and this weirdo white victimology?

Watch for tale tale signs, does the person use bad language? Are they dressed inappropriately for where they are? Do they seem nervous?

Really?!

Watching for these kinds of things can be taught at a very young age. In this day and age you can't simply say ask a woman to help you, you have to be on your guard no matter what. A 90 year old grandma can turn out to be serial killer. Is it likely? No, but it can happen.

As far as we know, hasn't happened yet, so I'm good with playing those odds vs. telling kids to be careful of people who curse.

 

[FireDancer]

Assuming all men are dangerous because statistically they are more likely to be violent criminals is no different than saying all black males are violent criminals because statistically they are more likely to commit violent crimes.

Profile behavior is beneficial. Profiling race, religion, sex, or anything like that is wrong even if statistics back it up and I find it all equally pathetic.

I think telling someone to find a woman as opposed to a man is sad and just plain wrong in your example OP. The vast majority of people, male or female, aren't out to hurt anyone.

 

[cornflake]

Assuming all men are dangerous because statistically they are more likely to be violent criminals is no different than saying all black males are violent criminals because statistically they are more likely to commit violent crimes.

Profile behavior is beneficial. Profiling race, religion, sex, or anything like that is wrong even if statistics back it up and I find it all equally pathetic.

I think telling someone to find a woman as opposed to a man is sad and just plain wrong.

There's a big difference, imo, between 'assuming all men are dangerous' and saying 'if you need help, find a woman, as it's less likely they're dangerous.'

 

[Free4Life11]

This whole thread is pointless...Mom, this is 2011. Both children should have phones. I mean really!

 

[FireDancer]

There's a big difference, imo, between 'assuming all men are dangerous' and saying 'if you need help, find a woman, as it's less likely they're dangerous.'

Then going by that logic the OP saying find a white person would be ok. You aren't saying all black people are bad, you are just saying it is less likely they are dangerous. Both are equally asinine.

You don't get to pick and choose when stereotypes are just fine and when they are wrong.

 

[laura.anne]

No, I don't really think males are discriminated against in society. Maybe by individual people, but not really in society as a whole.

 

[minkydog]

I would probably NOT advise my 13yo to approach a woman with small children. i don't know how big your son is, but a woman alone with children might feel intimidated and suspicious of a big, tall boy. Something similar happend to my son. He went trick-or-treating with a friend. He was about 5'10" and granted, he was wearing some fake blood. They went to a lady's house and when she opened the door, she screamed and threw the whole bowl of candy at them. They heard her slam the deadbolt. It upset DS so much that they immediately turned around and came home. He didn't even care about the candy. He wanted to go back and apologize for scaring her, but I told him to let it go. She was clearly intimidated and who knows? She might even call the police on him!

Now, I realize that trick-or-treat isn't the same thing, but a lot of women *are* intimidated by men. I would tell your son to go to a place of business that has a lot of cars in the parking lot. Some place where he can be highly visible, like Walmart, a grocery store, or even McDonalds. The employees or manager can help him out.

 

[cornflake]

Then going by that logic the OP saying find a white person would be ok. You aren't saying all black people are bad, you are just saying it is less likely they are dangerous. Both are equally asinine.

You don't get to pick and choose when stereotypes are just fine and when they are wrong.

Statistically, if we're talking about serial killers, which the OP was, the male/female divide is sharp and clear. There's no such thing w/re race, as I detailed in another post.

The male/female is like if you don't want to drown, don't go in the water. It's possible to drown in a sink but it's really, really, really unlikely. You're equating it to saying don't go in the ocean if you don't want to drown, go in the lake.

 

[laura.anne]

I would probably NOT advise my 13yo to approach a woman with small children. i don't know how big your son is, but a woman alone with children might feel intimidated and suspicious of a big, tall boy. Something similar happend to my son. He went trick-or-treating with a friend. He was about 5'10" and granted, he was wearing some fake blood. They went to a lady's house and when she opened the door, she screamed and threw the whole bowl of candy at them. They heard her slam the deadbolt. It upset DS so much that they immediately turned around and came home. He didn't even care about the candy. He wanted to go back and apologize for scaring her, but I told him to let it go. She was clearly intimidated and who knows? She might even call the police on him!

Now, I realize that trick-or-treat isn't the same thing, but a lot of women *are* intimidated by men. I would tell your son to go to a place of business that has a lot of cars in the parking lot. Some place where he can be highly visible, like Walmart, a grocery store, or even McDonalds. The employees or manager can help him out.

I agree! No matter who it is, boy girl man woman whoever, it's just a better idea to go into a place of business rather than approaching someone who may or may not react in a way you didn't expect.