External flashes

[mom2rtk]

About a year ago, I posted a thread here with questions about photographing the night parades at the Disney parties (MNSSHP & MVMCP, not Spectro or MSEP).

I had been to MVMCP in 08, and while I was happy with my photos from the parade, I was very frustrated photographing it because my flash seemed to take so long to recycle, leaving me high and dry sometimes. That led to a discussion about faster lenses, and me deciding it was high time I figured out what an f-stop was.........

I ended up buying the Sigma 30mm f1.4 to take with me to MNSSHP last fall. I did OK, but was at the very front of the learning curve with both it and using my camera out of the A or P modes. So once again, OK photos, but not great.

Now I'm considering how I want to photograph MVMCP this year. I have seen good photos posted here and on Flickr, both with and without flash.

Here's what I'm thinking: I was shooting in 08 on P mode in 1600 speed with my 18-250 lens. So I was asking that flash to throw quite a distance sometimes. I got frustrated and threw the 30mm f1.4 on the camera in A or P last fall for MHSSHP with no flash.

This year, I'm thinking I need to go shutter priority, but maybe with a little bit of fill flash. Do this sound like the right approach? To do this, do I just dial down the flash exposure compensation a bit?

I appreciate any thoughts or examples. I am bound and determined to get that parade right!

 

[Geoff_M]

Your best bet will be neither A, nor P, nor S... you want M. You also will want to bag the flash. The parade will be best preserved the way you see it, and unless you watch the night parades while holding a large spotlight, a flash photo (even dialed back) isn't going to look "right". You'll want to use manual, open the lens all the way open, and adjust the shutter speed and ISO until you get a usable image in terms of a fast enough shutter speed and exposure. If you haven't done so, learn how to use the camera's histogram display (if it has one).

 

[mom2rtk]

Your best bet will be neither A, nor P, nor S... you want M. You also will want to bag the flash. The parade will be best preserved the way you see it, and unless you watch the night parades while holding a large spotlight, a flash photo (even dialed back) isn't going to look "right". You'll want to use manual, open the lens all the way open, and adjust the shutter speed and ISO until you get a usable image in terms of a fast enough shutter speed and exposure. If you haven't done so, learn how to use the camera's histogram display (if it has one).

I understand what you're saying. But every time I see a shot on Flickr that I like and I see the EXIF data, there was a flash involved. I was thinking that maybe my personal preference is just to have that little extra bit of illumination on the characters' faces, but not so much that it washed everything out.

But I'm open to all discussions and points of view. And we're doing the party twice. Maybe I'll try it both ways.

 

[ukcatfan]

My personal taste is to have no flash for night parades. It just sort of ruins the effect to me.

 

[mom2rtk]

My personal taste is to have no flash for night parades. It just sort of ruins the effect to me.

So what is your approach? Do you use M? I'm not sure I'm ready for that. Heck, a year ago I hadn't used anything but A or P. I'm getting fairly comfortable with AP and Tv, but haven't trusted myself with full manual except on fireworks.

Maybe I'm just a little "gun shy" after not feeling very successful with MNSSHP. Some of my shots were a little blurry. Hard to say if it was using the lens wide open at 1.4 or if my shutter speed was a little long.

 

[IndyShutterbug]

I was going through my sets on flickr, and all of the ones I had kept had some fill flash(580exii) in them. I never use a flash when not supposed to(like on rides), but I did on the MNSSHP parades. I need to go back and look at the past trip with my 5dmkii, I think I left the flash off with the 50 1.4 on and iso at 3200 or 6400. If I tried anything over 1000 on my 50D, forget about it.

I always use shutter priority to stop the movement as much as possible. Manual would be ideal, except the lighting changes so much in a parade.

 

[mom2rtk]

I was going through my sets on flickr, and all of the ones I had kept had some fill flash(580exii) in them. I never use a flash when not supposed to(like on rides), but I did on the MNSSHP parades. I need to go back and look at the past trip with my 5dmkii, I think I left the flash off with the 50 1.4 on and iso at 3200 or 6400. If I tried anything over 1000 on my 50D, forget about it.

I have an Xsi, so I am limited to 1600 ISO. I do dream of having an upgrade at some point with higher ISO!

I do feel better about using 1600 now though since I have upgraded to LR3 for noise reduction.

 

[mom2rtk]

You clearly need better friends.... the kind with Canon cameras and flashes to lend! Sorry... I hope you get things worked out soon and get a new flash with padded housing!

 

[VVFF]

I have an Xsi, so I am limited to 1600 ISO. I do dream of having an upgrade at some point with higher ISO!

I do feel better about using 1600 now though since I have upgraded to LR3 for noise reduction.

You are not limited to ISO 1600. On newer rebel models, ISOs above 3200 are done in software. So shooting ISO 1600 and underexposing by a stop and increasing it in post is the same as shooting in ISO 3200.

 

[IndyShutterbug]

LR3 is a huge time saver for me! I am a big fan of shooting at higher iso now, just make sure your sharpness doesn't suffer.

 

[ukcatfan]

So what is your approach? Do you use M? I'm not sure I'm ready for that. Heck, a year ago I hadn't used anything but A or P. I'm getting fairly comfortable with AP and Tv, but haven't trusted myself with full manual except on fireworks.

Maybe I'm just a little "gun shy" after not feeling very successful with MNSSHP. Some of my shots were a little blurry. Hard to say if it was using the lens wide open at 1.4 or if my shutter speed was a little long.

I use shutter priority in those situations and set the ISO to the highest I find acceptable. I have not shot a night parade since upgrading to the K-x with the higher usable ISO, but on my old K100D I would use 1600. I believe I would also set the exposure compensation to around -1, but cannot remember 100%. With shutter priority, you get to set a fast enough shutter to prevent blur and then when the camera gets enough light it might stop down the aperture giving more DOF and the lenses are sharper not wide open. Some of your shot with blur could be a DOF miss instead of motion blur. The DOF is really small at f/1.4.

 

[zackiedawg]

I tend to not be a fan of flash at night either. I use flash for indoors and portraits, but for outdoor shots at night, such as the parade, I quite prefer the atmosphere to remain dark and 'night-like'...even if that means less illumination on faces and deep black shadows. Personal preference there.

So I tend to use my Sigma 30mm F1.4, but usually dialed to between F1.7 and F2.0 in Aperture Priority mode, then I roll my ISO up or down as needed to keep my shutter speed over 1/100 if possible. I stay just a bit off wide open, as the Sigma is a little sharper as soon as you stop down a notch, and because it gives a little extra DOF. I tend to use a spot focus and center-weight metering...and I'll use AE lock button to lock down exposure early when I see the floats, then keep autofocusing until I lock on the place I want to focus. By AE Locking, it avoids having the camera re-meter when I'm focusing on a brighter part of the float to get correct focus. Also, remember with the floats, even though they aren't moving that fast, when you're shooting with wide-open apertures like F1.4, you need to lock focus and shoot within a second - the depth of field is so shallow that a few inches of forward motion by the float between the time you locked focus and the time you fired can move the focus off.

 

[bentos]

I think that using flash can really make the photo lose the quality of natural light available in the area and can really change the way a night scene is composed. But then what I do is use long shutters with flash to add a bit of effect to it. I figured cameras with "twilight portrait" "night scene" features use this kind of setting.

Your f/1.4 lens would ideally be good at low light scenes even without light. I guess your only problem would be if your camera has just a few focusing points. A lot of cameras reduce noise at high ISO so maybe 1600 to 3200 would be really helpful for you.

But entirely, it really depends on what kind of lighting is available in the area. Parades are usually well lit anyways and flash would really not be needed especially with your lens' aperture capability.

 

[disneyboy2003]

I think there are some pretty good arguments for not using flash, especially for lighted parades, like SpectroMagic and the Main Street Electrical Parade. Folks are correct in that flash can often ruin the mood of these lights when you view the photos later.

However, Mickey's Once Upon a Christmastime Parade is a bit different. There really aren't too many lights on these floats, like there are in SpectroMagic. I looked back on my photos from this parade, and I actually did use flash. Here are a few sample photos:

​

You certainly don't want to BLAST the float with tons of flash, but I think adding a touch of flash (adjust the output of your flash using Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC)) can bring out a lot of rich color and detail to the nighttime parade photos.

Because I was using flash, I was able to use a lower ISO, like ISO 400. I, personally, was hesitant using ISOs higher than 400 because I'm overly paranoid about noise / grain. However, I'm just now recently getting comfortable using ISO 800 and *gasp* ISO 1600, especially if the exposure is correct or just slightly brighter than normal--this helps to minimize the noise.

I normally shoot in Manual, so I was comfortable with this during the parade. The floats are slow enough and the characters don't move that fast, so you don't need a super-fast shutter speed. I went with something like 1/80 - 1/100 shutter speed.

Since I was using flash, I had room to use a smaller aperture, like f/4.5 - f/5.6. My lens during the parade was the 17-55mm f/2.8 lens, which is my normal, everyday, walk-around lens. Although I also had my 50mm f/1.4 lens with me, I liked the flexibility of zooming with my lens during the parade.

I know I'm going against the grain here, suggesting that it's okay to use flash during the nighttime parade. The parade comes around twice at night, so you'll have plenty of chances to experiment yourself. Plus, even if you did attach the flash onto your camera, you always have the option of turning the flash off.

There are no hard-and-fast rules, so take this unique opportunity to experiment as much as you can...and don't forget to enjoy the parade, too!

 

[Marlton Mom]

Would setting the flash to "Slow Sync" work? That allows the camera to capture the fore ground subject and the back ground lighting.It's a setting that slows the shutter speed how ever.... how much I'm not quite sure.

On the program dial on a Nikon it's found in the night portrait mode. I'm not sure what it would be on your camera.

I'm reading the manual on my new Nikon D90 and I haven't had time to noodle around with the slow sync setting to see if it would duplicate the effect you're after.

I can say that the user manual for your camera has a gold mine of info for situations like these, it's just a Bear to get through!!

Best of luck,

Marlton Mom

 

[disneyboy2003]

Would setting the flash to "Slow Sync" work? That allows the camera to capture the fore ground subject and the back ground lighting.It's a setting that slows the shutter speed how ever.... how much I'm not quite sure.

That's a good thought. However, the Slow Sync function works best when (1) your subject isn't moving and (2) you're using a tripod.

All flash pictures are really a combination of 2 exposures: (1) the foreground subject that is lit by the flash, and (2) the background (or, ambient exposure).

There are several things that affect the foreground flash exposure: the power output of the flash, the aperture, and the ISO. Note that shutter speed doesn't affect the flash exposure.

The background / ambient exposure is affected by the 3 things we're already familiar with in the "exposure triangle": shutter speed, aperture, and ISO.

When you take a picture using flash, only the shutter speed will *independently* control how bright or dark the background is, without affecting the foreground flash exposure.

So that's what the Slow Sync function is doing. It takes your flash picture, and it keeps your shutter open for a longer time (ie. uses a slower shutter speed), so that more of the background appears in your photo. Because you're using a slower shutter speed, it's best if your subject isn't moving and if you're using a tripod. That's why Slow Sync wouldn't be ideal for a nighttime parade.

Instead, I would use the Slow Sync function when I'm posing in front of Cinderella's Castle at night.

 

[Marlton Mom]

That's a good thought. However, the Slow Sync function works best when (1) your subject isn't moving and (2) you're using a tripod....................................

....................So that's what the Slow Sync function is doing. It takes your flash picture, and it keeps your shutter open for a longer time (ie. uses a slower shutter speed), so that more of the background appears in your photo. Because you're using a slower shutter speed, it's best if your subject isn't moving and if you're using a tripod. That's why Slow Sync wouldn't be ideal for a nighttime parade.

Instead, I would use the Slow Sync function when I'm posing in front of Cinderella's Castle at night.

Excellent answer!

Thanks
Marlton Mom

 

[ssanders79]

I think this comes down to personal preference. 99% of the time I would rather go without a shot than use a flash.

 

[mom2rtk]

You are not limited to ISO 1600. On newer rebel models, ISOs above 3200 are done in software. So shooting ISO 1600 and underexposing by a stop and increasing it in post is the same as shooting in ISO 3200.

Are you talking about the T1i and newer? I have the Xsi. I'm hoping to move up to the Ti1 or T2i one day, mostly for even the bump to 3200 but am not aware that anything over 1600 is available to me with my Xsi.

I use shutter priority in those situations and set the ISO to the highest I find acceptable. I have not shot a night parade since upgrading to the K-x with the higher usable ISO, but on my old K100D I would use 1600. I believe I would also set the exposure compensation to around -1, but cannot remember 100%. With shutter priority, you get to set a fast enough shutter to prevent blur and then when the camera gets enough light it might stop down the aperture giving more DOF and the lenses are sharper not wide open. Some of your shot with blur could be a DOF miss instead of motion blur. The DOF is really small at f/1.4.

Dialing down the EC is definitely something I have picked up there (thank you everyone! ) and will be using during the parade. Now that I've seen how nicely (and easily!) LR3 can lighten those shots, I see the value in slightly underexposing them if needed to get a faster shutter speed. This one step might be the deciding factor for me!

And yes, I am highly suspicious that my problem might have been DOF related, especially with a moving parade.

I think that using flash can really make the photo lose the quality of natural light available in the area and can really change the way a night scene is composed. But then what I do is use long shutters with flash to add a bit of effect to it. I figured cameras with "twilight portrait" "night scene" features use this kind of setting.

Your f/1.4 lens would ideally be good at low light scenes even without light. I guess your only problem would be if your camera has just a few focusing points. A lot of cameras reduce noise at high ISO so maybe 1600 to 3200 would be really helpful for you.

But entirely, it really depends on what kind of lighting is available in the area. Parades are usually well lit anyways and flash would really not be needed especially with your lens' aperture capability.

The Xsi has 9 focus points. I generally manually choose the one I want to use, typically the center point. Should I be doing it differently?

I really prefer watching the parade somewhere on Main Street so I can shoot with the castle in the background. I really don't consider this are to be well lit.

I think there are some pretty good arguments for not using flash, especially for lighted parades, like SpectroMagic and the Main Street Electrical Parade. Folks are correct in that flash can often ruin the mood of these lights when you view the photos later.

However, Mickey's Once Upon a Christmastime Parade is a bit different. There really aren't too many lights on these floats, like there are in SpectroMagic. I looked back on my photos from this parade, and I actually did use flash. Here are a few sample photos:

​

You certainly don't want to BLAST the float with tons of flash, but I think adding a touch of flash (adjust the output of your flash using Flash Exposure Compensation (FEC)) can bring out a lot of rich color and detail to the nighttime parade photos.

Because I was using flash, I was able to use a lower ISO, like ISO 400. I, personally, was hesitant using ISOs higher than 400 because I'm overly paranoid about noise / grain. However, I'm just now recently getting comfortable using ISO 800 and *gasp* ISO 1600, especially if the exposure is correct or just slightly brighter than normal--this helps to minimize the noise.

I normally shoot in Manual, so I was comfortable with this during the parade. The floats are slow enough and the characters don't move that fast, so you don't need a super-fast shutter speed. I went with something like 1/80 - 1/100 shutter speed.

Since I was using flash, I had room to use a smaller aperture, like f/4.5 - f/5.6. My lens during the parade was the 17-55mm f/2.8 lens, which is my normal, everyday, walk-around lens. Although I also had my 50mm f/1.4 lens with me, I liked the flexibility of zooming with my lens during the parade.

I know I'm going against the grain here, suggesting that it's okay to use flash during the nighttime parade. The parade comes around twice at night, so you'll have plenty of chances to experiment yourself. Plus, even if you did attach the flash onto your camera, you always have the option of turning the flash off.

There are no hard-and-fast rules, so take this unique opportunity to experiment as much as you can...and don't forget to enjoy the parade, too!

Thanks for posting your shots Disneyboy!

They are lovely. Not only does the parade come around twice, but we're actually doing the party 2 nights. I'm hoping to maybe catch it twice during the 4 showings available. (We're going 12/14 and 12/16, so I do expect it to be crazy busy!)

I also like the idea of being able to zoom a little bit, but am I correct in assuming that if I DON'T use the flash, I should stick with the 1.4? Would I stand a chance with my 2.8 if I go without the flash?

I tend to not be a fan of flash at night either. I use flash for indoors and portraits, but for outdoor shots at night, such as the parade, I quite prefer the atmosphere to remain dark and 'night-like'...even if that means less illumination on faces and deep black shadows. Personal preference there.

So I tend to use my Sigma 30mm F1.4, but usually dialed to between F1.7 and F2.0 in Aperture Priority mode, then I roll my ISO up or down as needed to keep my shutter speed over 1/100 if possible. I stay just a bit off wide open, as the Sigma is a little sharper as soon as you stop down a notch, and because it gives a little extra DOF. I tend to use a spot focus and center-weight metering...and I'll use AE lock button to lock down exposure early when I see the floats, then keep autofocusing until I lock on the place I want to focus. By AE Locking, it avoids having the camera re-meter when I'm focusing on a brighter part of the float to get correct focus. Also, remember with the floats, even though they aren't moving that fast, when you're shooting with wide-open apertures like F1.4, you need to lock focus and shoot within a second - the depth of field is so shallow that a few inches of forward motion by the float between the time you locked focus and the time you fired can move the focus off.

Thank you for explaining so thoroughly! And I hadn't thought of changing my metering mode. Center-weighted sounds like a good plan. (Let's just hope I remember to change it back. I'm not so good at that part....)

Would setting the flash to "Slow Sync" work? That allows the camera to capture the fore ground subject and the back ground lighting.It's a setting that slows the shutter speed how ever.... how much I'm not quite sure.

On the program dial on a Nikon it's found in the night portrait mode. I'm not sure what it would be on your camera.

I'm reading the manual on my new Nikon D90 and I haven't had time to noodle around with the slow sync setting to see if it would duplicate the effect you're after.

I can say that the user manual for your camera has a gold mine of info for situations like these, it's just a Bear to get through!!

Best of luck,

Marlton Mom

Hey! Congrats on the new camera! I can't wait to see what you do with it! And congrats on the plans to do Star Wars Weekends! I'm dying to do it sometime, but am such a whimp in the heat. But man..... marching stormtroopers....... that sounds so awesome!

That's a good thought. However, the Slow Sync function works best when (1) your subject isn't moving and (2) you're using a tripod.

All flash pictures are really a combination of 2 exposures: (1) the foreground subject that is lit by the flash, and (2) the background (or, ambient exposure).

There are several things that affect the foreground flash exposure: the power output of the flash, the aperture, and the ISO. Note that shutter speed doesn't affect the flash exposure.

The background / ambient exposure is affected by the 3 things we're already familiar with in the "exposure triangle": shutter speed, aperture, and ISO.

When you take a picture using flash, only the shutter speed will *independently* control how bright or dark the background is, without affecting the foreground flash exposure.

So that's what the Slow Sync function is doing. It takes your flash picture, and it keeps your shutter open for a longer time (ie. uses a slower shutter speed), so that more of the background appears in your photo. Because you're using a slower shutter speed, it's best if your subject isn't moving and if you're using a tripod. That's why Slow Sync wouldn't be ideal for a nighttime parade.

Instead, I would use the Slow Sync function when I'm posing in front of Cinderella's Castle at night.

Thanks for the thorough explanation!

I think this comes down to personal preference. 99% of the time I would rather go without a shot than use a flash.

Now if one of you guys could just tell me which my personal preference is......

I could solve the entire problem by sticking around an extra couple of days to see it when it starts playing during the day. So far, that's a no go.... but I haven't given up.........

 

[disneyboy2003]

Here are some nighttime parade photos I took, both with and without flash, on the same night. Hopefully, this can help you compare flash vs. no flash.

1/60 sec, f/2.8, ISO 1000, no flash

1/80 sec, f/2.8, ISO 1000, no flash

1/80 sec, f/2.8, ISO 1000, flash

1/40 sec, f/2.8, ISO 1000, no flash

1/50 sec, f/2.8, ISO 1000, flash
​

These were all taken with my 17-55mm f/2.8 lens. I did do some processing with Lightroom, too.

Hope that helps!