External flashes

[WDWFigment]

I have yet to see a single nighttime parade shot using flash that looks good. I would strongly caution you against using it.

The suggestions here are good, but just as important, you might set up shop somewhere with more lights (Liberty Square--or better yet, across from the CASTLE! Main St. and Frontierland are big no-no areas).


Using a D40 and the 30mm lens - note my ISO only hit 800.


Same EXIF as above.


Taken with the D90, but only using ISO 640 and a f/2.8 lens. Granted, the parade has more light, but not that much more light.

Point being, you can easily accomplish good pictures with the gear you have. Again, I strongly caution against using flash--to me at least, the results look terrible. It could be personal preference, but I hate it.

P.S. I know there are only a few examples here, but this is just what I found in my Flickr photostream. I should have several photos from MNSSHP's parade in my Oct TR if you can find it. I'm supposed to be studying right now, though...

 

[foolishmortal]

i never use flash, day or night parade or not

 

[Golf4food]

Instead, I would use the Slow Sync function when I'm posing in front of Cinderella's Castle at night.

Why? Your flash is not strong enough to do a darn thing when shooting the castle except artificially shorten your shutter speed if you are in any auto mode. Keep the flash off. At best you are going to be dozens or 50 or more feet away from the castle. Most people have an on camera flash capable of illuminating at most 6-12 feet away. So what good is a flash going to do when your subject is 50 feet away? None. It just drains your battery for no good reason. I laugh at all the people standing in the hub flashing away with their little P&S cameras as though the flash will help (I'm guessing most have no idea how to turn off a flash anyway...)

Use a tripod, turn off the flash, take the picture.


I never use flash for Spectromagic. Monopod, bump the ISO, open up the apeture as wide as you can get it on your lens, find the fastest shutter speed you can get decent results.

 

[mom2rtk]

Why? Your flash is not strong enough to do a darn thing when shooting the castle except artificially shorten your shutter speed if you are in any auto mode. Keep the flash off. At best you are going to be dozens or 50 or more feet away from the castle. Most people have an on camera flash capable of illuminating at most 6-12 feet away. So what good is a flash going to do when your subject is 50 feet away? None. It just drains your battery for no good reason. I laugh at all the people standing in the hub flashing away with their little P&S cameras as though the flash will help (I'm guessing most have no idea how to turn off a flash anyway...)

Use a tripod, turn off the flash, take the picture.


I never use flash for Spectromagic. Monopod, bump the ISO, open up the apeture as wide as you can get it on your lens, find the fastest shutter speed you can get decent results.

I think Disneyboy was talking about taking pictures of PEOPLE in front of the castle.

 

[disneyboy2003]

I think Disneyboy was talking about taking pictures of PEOPLE in front of the castle.

Wow! Thanks for standing up for me. Boy, I feel like I've been attacked twice in one page. On a Disney message board, nonetheless.

 

[mom2rtk]

Wow! Thanks for standing up for me. Boy, I feel like I've been attacked twice in one page. On a Disney message board, nonetheless.

I didn't realize that there would be such strong feelings on the flash vs. no flash issue on this. I just really wanted to look at it from both angles. I appreciate you showing me examples and giving me something to look at from the "flash" side of things.

Up until earlier this year, I didn't even know there WAS a flash exposure compensation on my camera!

I was pretty settled on going with no flash, then I saw the following photo in fellow Diser Paul Gowder's Flickr photostream:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/96077153@N00/3944105001/

Sorry I could only link it, I couldn't figure out how to post it here (with credit of course). I liked that you could see the characters clearly, but that the castle wasn't washed out either.

I have yet to see a single nighttime parade shot using flash that looks good. I would strongly caution you against using it.

The suggestions here are good, but just as important, you might set up shop somewhere with more lights (Liberty Square--or better yet, across from the CASTLE! Main St. and Frontierland are big no-no areas).


Using a D40 and the 30mm lens - note my ISO only hit 800.


Same EXIF as above.


Taken with the D90, but only using ISO 640 and a f/2.8 lens. Granted, the parade has more light, but not that much more light.

Point being, you can easily accomplish good pictures with the gear you have. Again, I strongly caution against using flash--to me at least, the results look terrible. It could be personal preference, but I hate it.

P.S. I know there are only a few examples here, but this is just what I found in my Flickr photostream. I should have several photos from MNSSHP's parade in my Oct TR if you can find it. I'm supposed to be studying right now, though...

Tom, those are gorgeous as always! Do you aim for a certain shutter speed in this setting?

Do you suppose I could get by with my 2.8 since it has IS compared with my 1.4 that does not?

And BTW.... I'm supposed to be working right now. So it's all good, right????

Just kidding. Good luck on the Bar exam!

 

[WDWFigment]

My feelings on this are pretty strong, but not directed at anyone in particular (I'm not the 'Disney moral police'--I've done it too). By analogy, flash during the night parades to me is what flash on Haunted Mansion is to others (although I loathe the latter, too). Both ruin part of the illusion that is created by the darkness and both are prohibited in announcements prior to the attraction/parade (not sure if this is the case with the hard ticket parades, but it is with the normal nighttime parades).

I didn't realize that there would be such strong feelings on the flash vs. no flash issue on this. I just really wanted to look at it from both angles. I appreciate you showing me examples and giving me something to look at from the "flash" side of things.

Up until earlier this year, I didn't even know there WAS a flash exposure compensation on my camera!

I was pretty settled on going with no flash, then I saw the following photo in fellow Diser Paul Gowder's Flickr photostream:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/96077153@N00/3944105001/

Sorry I could only link it, I couldn't figure out how to post it here (with credit of course). I liked that you could see the characters clearly, but that the castle wasn't washed out either.






Tom, those are gorgeous as always! Do you aim for a certain shutter speed in this setting?

Do you suppose I could get by with my 2.8 since it has IS compared with my 1.4 that does not?

And BTW.... I'm supposed to be working right now. So it's all good, right????

Just kidding. Good luck on the Bar exam!

I think I use aperture priority, a low-ish aperture, and auto-ISO with a ceiling of like 1600 and a minimum shutter speed of 1/40, but don't quote me on that. Sometimes I go pure manual mode and adjust if I see any light differences between floats. I don't think I've ever used shutter priority for a parade (again, don't quote me on that).

I wouldn't use the f/2.8 unless it gives you a focal length you want. Stabilization isn't going to do much for you since you'll be using fast-enough shutter speeds to negate any camera shake and since the floats are moving. For the same reason, a tripod or monopod are both unnecessary.

 

[mom2rtk]

My feelings on this are pretty strong, but not directed at anyone in particular (I'm not the 'Disney moral police'--I've done it too). By analogy, flash during the night parades to me is what flash on Haunted Mansion is to others (although I loathe the latter, too). Both ruin part of the illusion that is created by the darkness and both are prohibited in announcements prior to the attraction/parade (not sure if this is the case with the hard ticket parades, but it is with the normal nighttime parades).



I think I use aperture priority, a low-ish aperture, and auto-ISO with a ceiling of like 1600 and a minimum shutter speed of 1/40, but don't quote me on that. Sometimes I go pure manual mode and adjust if I see any light differences between floats. I don't think I've ever used shutter priority for a parade (again, don't quote me on that).

I wouldn't use the f/2.8 unless it gives you a focal length you want. Stabilization isn't going to do much for you since you'll be using fast-enough shutter speeds to negate any camera shake and since the floats are moving. For the same reason, a tripod or monopod are both unnecessary.

I don't think I've ever heard announcements about no flash on the hard ticket party parades. I do try to adhere to the announcements when I hear them.

As for the IS lens, I knew it wouldn't help with the moving floats, but I thought it might let me get by with a slightly slower shutter speed (and smaller aperture, allowing for a little more DOF) than I could have gotten without it. I do have fairly unsteady hands to start with, which makes this all much harder.

 

[WDWFigment]

I don't think I've ever heard announcements about no flash on the hard ticket party parades. I do try to adhere to the announcements when I hear them.

As for the IS lens, I knew it wouldn't help with the moving floats, but I thought it might let me get by with a slightly slower shutter speed (and smaller aperture, allowing for a little more DOF) than I could have gotten without it. I do have fairly unsteady hands to start with, which makes this all much harder.

I don't know if I recall hearing them either--which is odd, since the one before Spectro and MSEP indicates it's for the "safety of our performers." If performer safety is at issue in those two, wouldn't it be in the hard ticket parades, as well? I think the actual reason is that the Spectro parades look worse when 'flashed', but Disney feels more people will respond to an appeal to safety than unexplained rules. Perhaps the company isn't that calculating, but that's my guess.

I still think you're losing more than you're gaining by going from f/1.4 or 1.8 to f/2.8 IS. I wouldn't over-think this too much as it might 'psych you out' even more. Your recent shots demonstrate you have the skills for this. Parade photography is pretty simple comparatively speaking.

 

[mom2rtk]

I don't know if I recall hearing them either--which is odd, since the one before Spectro and MSEP indicates it's for the "safety of our performers." If performer safety is at issue in those two, wouldn't it be in the hard ticket parades, as well? I think the actual reason is that the Spectro parades look worse when 'flashed', but Disney feels more people will respond to an appeal to safety than unexplained rules. Perhaps the company isn't that calculating, but that's my guess.

I still think you're losing more than you're gaining by going from f/1.4 or 1.8 to f/2.8 IS. I wouldn't over-think this too much as it might 'psych you out' even more. Your recent shots demonstrate you have the skills for this. Parade photography is pretty simple comparatively speaking.

Thanks so much for the vote of confidence! It really does help me to work through the thought processes ahead of time, and it's also a great way to pass the time until December gets here!

I'm guessing that flash is less of an issue during these parades since they are actually spotlighted in various places along the route, whereas Spectro and MSEP are not.

I do feel much better prepared to shoot this parade than I did last year. I remember being advised to get out and practice with that 1.4 before the trip, but honestly, there was just no time. Thankfully I've used it a little more now before this trip!

My shots weren't BAD from MNSSHP, but just could have been so much better.

I enjoy this thinking process and appreciate (as always) everyone's suggestions and opinions! Clearly there are many approaches, and I benefit from hearing them all!

 

[Steve's Girl]

I'll add more to this later with photo examples, but for now....I never use flash for Spectro. But, have found that for some of the shots, a little fill flash does help for MVMCP. Many of the floats are not lit and depending on where you are standing, the performers and characters can be pretty much in the dark. I use my external flash set at somewhere around -2 exp. comp. and just turn it off and on as needed.

 

[mom2rtk]

I'll add more to this later with photo examples, but for now....I never use flash for Spectro. But, have found that for some of the shots, a little fill flash does help for MVMCP. Many of the floats are not lit and depending on where you are standing, the performers and characters can be pretty much in the dark. I use my external flash set at somewhere around -2 exp. comp. and just turn it off and on as needed.

That would be great! I really would love to see more MVMCP or MNSSHP examples!

 

[disneyboy2003]

I know that flash photography is prohibited on many of the indoor attractions, like Pirates of the Caribbean and Haunted Mansion. Not only is it announced beforehand, cast members will also make special overhead announcements / warnings and even stop the rides.

However, I am not aware of any rules against flash photography for nighttime parades. If there were such rules, surely, cast members along the parade routes would be issuing stern warnings and enforcing this "no flash" rule to the hundreds and hundreds of guests using flash photography during the night parade. Instead, I have seen no cast members approach any guests about flash photography during a parade.

This is the announcement that is made 5 minutes before the parade:

"Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, in five minutes you will be experiencing our unique musical and light spectacular, Spectromaigic. In order for you to fully experience tonight's presentation, the Magic Kingdom lighting will be reduced. We recommend for your own safety and convenience that you enjoy the performance by remaining in one location until the lighting returns to normal. We also ask for the safety of our performers, that you refrain from the use of video camera lighting." A Spanish safety warning spiel follows, after which the female announcer says "And now, here's your host, Jiminy Cricket!"

--from http://www.magicmusic.net/blog/2/entry-45-spectromagic-preshow-announcements/​

As a photographer, I don't use video camera lighting. Light from flash is completely different from video camera lighting.

You would think that if they wanted to prohibit flash photography, their pre-parade announcement would have also specified "no flash photography," as well. Disney has had plenty of experience with tourist photographers to know that if Disney didn't want flash photography, they would use the words "no flash photography."

Whether or not you like flash photography during night parades is entirely up to you. But to accuse other folks of violating some "no flash" rule that doesn't exist was simply hurtful and wrong.

 

[WDWFigment]

I construe the phrase "video camera lighting" to encompass flash photography as well. Perhaps my interpretation isn't held by most or even correct, but in the context of the sentence, i.e. 'for the safety of our performers', it's what I believe is intended.

Unless there is an explanation of why just lighting produced by a video camera could be hazardous to the performers whereas lighting from a camera would not be hazardous, I will maintain that belief. However, I understand how my interpretation is perhaps overly liberal.

Again, this isn't a knock at anyone individually. It seems like at least half of guests at the parade use flash, so my interpretation is probably wrong!

 

[Steve's Girl]

I construe the phrase "video camera lighting" to encompass flash photography as well. Perhaps my interpretation isn't held by most or even correct, but in the context of the sentence, i.e. 'for the safety of our performers', it's what I believe is intended.

Unless there is an explanation of why just lighting produced by a video camera could be hazardous to the performers whereas lighting from a camera would not be hazardous, I will maintain that belief. However, I understand how my interpretation is perhaps overly liberal.

Again, this isn't a knock at anyone individually. It seems like at least half of guests at the parade use flash, so my interpretation is probably wrong!

Video camera lighting is a constant light as opposed to flash photography which lasts for a nano second (give or take a bit).

 

[Steve's Girl]

Here are some MVMCP examples. What I often do is not use flash when the floats are farther away and then use flash for the close up shots of the characters as the float passes.

This is without flash

With flash

Without flash (it was just too dark where we were viewing the parade to get decent non-flash photos of floats or characters that were not lit in some way)

With flash

Santa was done without flash as his float was fairly well-lit

I have attempted to do MVMCP entirely without flash and was pretty unhappy with the results. Maybe if you carefully stake out a very well-lit area and plan most of your evening around guarding your "spot", you could get some better results. But, I'm there to have fun and don't really want to spend two hours waiting for "the spot" so I do the best I can with what I have - manual settings, a fast lens and a little flash when needed.

I have only been to MNSSHP once and did the whole parade without flash. I think it worked OK for the Halloween theme, but a few of the photos were pretty dark.

Way too dark!

This one is actually best without flash

Could have used a bit of fill flash

Most of the lit floats work fine without flash

I think these hard ticket parades do need a bit of flash for some of the characters. I find it works best to have your settings similar to Spectro - manual exposure, ISO 1600, fast lens set in the f1.4-2.0 range, shutter around 90 and then use a bit of flash only when needed to illuminate an otherwise dark object. But, I do turn my flash power way down as I don't want to get that artificial blast deer in the headlights look. Just my opinion. Others will vary.

 

[clearskies]

Mom2rtk,

My advice to you is to try taking photos both with and without flash. You indicated that you will be going to the party for 2 nights. Try the parade one night with the flash and they other without. I have only been to a special event parade once last year for MNSSHP and I had the objective to try both flash and non-flash pictures of Boo To You. It became too utterly painful switching settings back and forth so I eventually settled on flash only since I was getting better overall results with some flash. There are shots that I don't think I would be able to get unless I had some flash. There are definitely pictures that came out better without the flash though. On the way out we caught the tail end of the parade at the end of Main St and I fired off some last shots without the flash.

Since you asked for examples, here are flash pictures from Frontierland.

Here are non-flash pictures I took. Note that I set my ISO very high for these: 6400 and 12800

These guys came out much better without the flash.

They were also much better without the flash

No matter what you decide, good luck and have fun!

 

[mom2rtk]

Here are some MVMCP examples. What I often do is not use flash when the floats are farther away and then use flash for the close up shots of the characters as the float passes.

I have attempted to do MVMCP entirely without flash and was pretty unhappy with the results. Maybe if you carefully stake out a very well-lit area and plan most of your evening around guarding your "spot", you could get some better results. But, I'm there to have fun and don't really want to spend two hours waiting for "the spot" so I do the best I can with what I have - manual settings, a fast lens and a little flash when needed.

I have only been to MNSSHP once and did the whole parade without flash. I think it worked OK for the Halloween theme, but a few of the photos were pretty dark.

I think these hard ticket parades do need a bit of flash for some of the characters. I find it works best to have your settings similar to Spectro - manual exposure, ISO 1600, fast lens set in the f1.4-2.0 range, shutter around 90 and then use a bit of flash only when needed to illuminate an otherwise dark object. But, I do turn my flash power way down as I don't want to get that artificial blast deer in the headlights look. Just my opinion. Others will vary.

Mom2rtk,

My advice to you is to try taking photos both with and without flash. You indicated that you will be going to the party for 2 nights. Try the parade one night with the flash and they other without. I have only been to a special event parade once last year for MNSSHP and I had the objective to try both flash and non-flash pictures of Boo To You. It became too utterly painful switching settings back and forth so I eventually settled on flash only since I was getting better overall results with some flash. There are shots that I don't think I would be able to get unless I had some flash. There are definitely pictures that came out better without the flash though. On the way out we caught the tail end of the parade at the end of Main St and I fired off some last shots without the flash.

No matter what you decide, good luck and have fun!

Thank you both for posting some examples. I really do think these 2 parades are entirely different from Spectro or MSEP when discussing flash vs. non-flash. And it does help to see both with and without flash examples.

I like both suggestions: taking one night with flash, and one without, as well as switching back and forth depending on how far the floats are away. I think my approach will depend on how busy the parties are, and whether I think I can free up time to see the parade twice. I was surprised in 08 how hard it was to fit everything in, even with 2 parties. Of course we were there the last week it was offered in 08, as will also be the case this year. So they could both sell out.

I looked back through my pictures from 08 and do think that some of those photos did need flash :

Others I liked without:

The problem I had is that the flash was not recycling very fast and I wasn't choosing what got the flash, the flash was deciding. I'm guessing I won't have that problem this time if I don't use it on zoom shots, and if I dial it back a bit.

I can't wait to see this parade again! And now you guys have me wishing I could see Boo to You again soon!

 

[dioxide45]

Also remember that the flash is to also be used as a fill. Depending on the lighting the surrounding light may cast shadows over your subject, or over the subjects face. A fill flash will fill in those shadows and provide a much better photo. This is why it is important to use a flash during day time events and photos also of people.

 

[Steve's Girl]

The problem I had is that the flash was not recycling very fast and I wasn't choosing what got the flash, the flash was deciding.

Do you have an external flash? With a fresh set of regular AA batteries, mine recycles pretty fast. It is also very easy to just hit the power button on the flash to turn it off and on without having to change any camera settings.