Explosions and shootings in Paris

Do you really have proof that the screening process is botched though? It takes 12 to 18 months to get approved.

When even François Hollande is stating that France will still welcome 30 000 refugees in the next two years, you have to take a step back and have some perspective on this subject.

I'm thinking that we can present any number of hard facts, backed by specialists around the world, stating that there is no reason to refuse refugees, and it will not change certain peoples' stance. Why? This is fear. It's simply not rational.
 
It is pandering and fear-mongering in order to score votes plain and simple. Really and truly appalling and history will judge these governor's harshly for their weak and cowardly ways. What is their issue with the current vetting process? Where are the holes? It is an incredibly intensive and invasive 12-18 months (and in some cases over 3 year long) process. Where would they add a step? The process has been in place for decades and no refugee in the US has been involved in terrorism to this point.

If they really want to affect change, why don't they use their bully pulpits for stronger gun control. Right now, all these same governors won't touch gun control as it doesn't poll well despite the fact it is the morally right thing to do. Currently, with our incredibly lax standards, anyone on the US Government terror watch list can legally purchase a gun. In fact, over 2000 guns have been purchased by people in the US on the watch list. Why don't the governors work to change that. I think it is incredibly important to note that in Paris, of the 132 people killed, 131 of them died by gunfire. The suicide bombers blew up themselves and one other person. EVERY OTHER VICTIM DIED BY GUNS. EVERY ONE. Yet, we won't deal with that issue in our country but would rather deny suffering litle Syrian toddlers the chance at a better life in the US. It is beyond frustrating.

Where are these refugees going to wait out this 12-18 month to potentially 3 year long process? If it's elsewhere, surely they'll have begun rebuilding their lives there during that timeframe. If it's here, do they live in controlled and supervised placement during that time? If so, who supports them while they wait virtually incarcerated? Does that fuel their resentment? If they need to be fully supported during their detention won't that create a tremendous burden on taxpayers footing the bill -- and fuel animosity on that end as well?

I have difficulty accepting the calling out of bully pulpits whilst attempting to pull on heartstrings by use of hyperbole to frame the crisis in terms of toddlers alone. High emotion on either side won't get an intelligent decision made.
 
Do you really have proof that the screening process is botched though? It takes 12 to 18 months to get approved.

When even François Hollande is stating that France will still welcome 30 000 refugees in the next two years, you have to take a step back and have some perspective on this subject.

I'm thinking that we can present any number of hard facts, backed by specialists around the world, stating that there is no reason to refuse refugees, and it will not change certain peoples' stance. Why? This is fear. It's simply not rational.

How many reports do we see of what slips through TSA checkpoints onto airliners? Surely the vetting of potential refugees is a bit more complex, so to suggest that it's largely foolproof isn't credible.
 
Why? This is fear. It's simply not rational.

It's entirely rational. I have already provided the post that walks through all the planned and/or attempted attacks right here in America by people who went through this mythical foolproof vetting process.
 

Where are these refugees going to wait out this 12-18 month to potentially 3 year long process? If it's elsewhere, surely they'll have begun rebuilding their lives there during that timeframe.

Excellent point. Supporters of taking in the refugees keep saying this over and over. If the process takes that long, they already have a home. Plus, after 1-3 years how do we know they will be even be political refugees by then? Seems like it's WAY more humanitarian and easier to fix the problem in Syria, rather than send these people to all corners of the globe.
 
Well, I'm talking about the Canadian side of the border, but in our case, the process was started way before these attacks. The refugees coming to Canada are in UN camps scattered around in neighboring countries. UN first does a "weeding out" and gathers information on the potential refugees. It then presents the information to the Canadian government that can choose the refugees they want to welcome. They then do some background checks, etc. Some of these people have been in temporary camps since 2011-2012. I for one am trusting the process, and experts on this issue are adamant that it is safe. Of course it's not foolproof. Nothing is. If you wait for foolproof processes in anything in life, you will never act.
 
Well, I'm talking about the Canadian side of the border, but in our case, the process was started way before these attacks. The refugees coming to Canada are in UN camps scattered around in neighboring countries. UN first does a "weeding out" and gathers information on the potential refugees. It then presents the information to the Canadian government that can choose the refugees they want to welcome. They then do some background checks, etc. Some of these people have been in temporary camps since 2011-2012. I for one am trusting the process, and experts on this issue are adamant that it is safe. Of course it's not foolproof. Nothing is. If you wait for foolproof processes in anything in life, you will never act.

The foolproof claims are being made as an endorsement of the vetting process. I find it reasonable, and prudent, to question the validity of that claim, but I can't say the same for your twisting the intent of the question.
 
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It is pandering and fear-mongering in order to score votes plain and simple. Really and truly appalling and history will judge these governor's harshly for their weak and cowardly ways. What is their issue with the current vetting process? Where are the holes? It is an incredibly intensive and invasive 12-18 months (and in some cases over 3 year long) process. Where would they add a step? The process has been in place for decades and no refugee in the US has been involved in terrorism to this point.

This has already been shown to be false. Repeating it over and over again won't make it true.
 
Now there is a report that 5 Syrian men have been detained in Honduras with fake passports. I personally don't care whether these people come by passport, refugee or whatever. Until their backgrounds have been thoroughly examined it is unwise to admit them to any country. Enough of theses wrong, silly claims that there is no history of hidden terrorists trying to enter the west. That is just wrong and I question the motives of those who keep claiming that.

Another thought on the refugee issue. Rather than trusting those who keep posting wrong information on lack of possible threats I think the fact that a great number of our governors are calling for at least more caution should be given weight. Leaving politics out, these governors have more information and more responsibilities than any of us have. If it were just one or two then you can call it a knee jerk reaction but their growing numbers should give pause. Governors have to manage the day to day running of their state. The Feds don't.
 
Now there is a report that 5 Syrian men have been detained in Honduras with fake passports. I personally don't care whether these people come by passport, refugee or whatever. Until their backgrounds have been thoroughly examined it is unwise to admit them to any country. Enough of theses wrong, silly claims that there is no history of hidden terrorists trying to enter the west. That is just wrong and I question the motives of those who keep claiming that.

The repeating motive apparently is gun control.
 
No, I think the motive is to be nice. At least for most people who support taking in more refugees. National security, they'll acknowledge is important. But not as important as being nice. If we show the world, if we show the Arab countries, if we show ISIS we are nice they will like us more. Is that over-simplistic? Yes. But that's basically the mantra.
 
I don't believe you're correct. To my knowledge in Michigan the request is to hold until there is a review of the vetting process to make sure it is as comprehensive as possible to avoid potential threats.

For the record, I myself believe in offering assistance to those truly seeking refuge from terror and deprivation. I certainly would never want to be in that type of need. But my memory of what happens when a nation seeks to export their troubles tells me we need to approach the situation intelligently as well as compassionately. Does no one remember the Cuban crisis of the 1980s?
I remember...

Part of what's lost in the hand-wringing is that effectively any deviation from "full speed ahead" in the intake of Syrian refugees is equated with "fear mongering", "pandering", "hatred", etc., etc. that doesn't bother to differentiate between those that have reflexively called for a permanent end to accepting refugees (with whom I don't agree), and many others (including our own Governor) who have stated that while we wish to continue to assist such persons that events in Paris make it prudent to pause these efforts while we try to make use of any possible information that might come from Europe, post-attacks, that might point to the need to update our vetting processes.

A certain highly political magazine, that I cannot name here for obvious reasons, that you would associate with those who are reacting most strongly against the call to pause or halt the resettlement programs, shocked many of their readers by posting an article by one of their writers that told people to stop categorically trying to call out anyone that even suggested that a reexamination of the Syrian refugee program was warranted. They pointed out the likely fact that an average person would call such reactions to the facts on the ground in the EU a prudent thing to do, and to continue to categorically rail against such efforts would likely appear to the average person as detached with the current world around us.

Another difference that Graeme Wood pointed out in his Atlantic article on ISIS was that one key difference between ISIS and bin Laden & Co. is that while bin Ladel was always coy with the outside about what his organization was up to, ISIS it quite upfront about their plans. They are more than happy to tell you what they're doing. While further screening will probably keep them from exiting the EU for the US, ISIS is very open that they are sneaking in "fighters" into the EU under the cover of being Syrian refugees. They may be inflating the numbers as they brag about it, but there's little doubt that they're doing it to some degree, but once again we have many people in the West that are refusing to take ISIS at their word. As one person I read pointed out, it's like watching ISIS and those in the West playing the parts in a surreal version of Monty Python's "Argument Clinic" sketch...

ISIS: We're sneaking people into the EU disguised as "refugees", right under your noses!

West: No you're not!

ISIS: Yes, we are.
 
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I personally don't care whether these people come by passport, refugee or whatever. Until their backgrounds have been thoroughly examined it is unwise to admit them to any country.

So what exactly are you suggesting? That we halt any and all travel in and out of the United States? I mean, if it does not matter if these people come by passport, then it seems that is what you are suggesting.
 
I was reminded today that despite all these atrocities, we are living in a very peaceful time. It was not so long ago that we were blighted by the Second World War; the Great War; frequent battles over Kingdoms. Millions have died, especially in Europe, and the Nazi and Russian empires in particular were horrifically brutal.
 
So what exactly are you suggesting? That we halt any and all travel in and out of the United States? I mean, if it does not matter if these people come by passport, then it seems that is what you are suggesting.

Improving our screening process doesn't mean halting all travel.
 
I am mostly concerned by the state of our intelligence services. I'd like to believe they are all over this, but they HAVE made a few mistakes... Jean Charles de Menzies, anyone? Very sad :(
 
[QUOTE="asta, post: 54751940, member: 27219"Another thought on the refugee issue. Rather than trusting those who keep posting wrong information on lack of possible threats I think the fact that a great number of our governors are calling for at least more caution should be given weight. Leaving politics out, these governors have more information and more responsibilities than any of us have. If it were just one or two then you can call it a knee jerk reaction but their growing numbers should give pause. Governors have to manage the day to day running of their state. The Feds don't.[/QUOTE]

At this point, I'm seriously think you are baiting us, but whatever. What people said about refugees is that there is not a single attack on the US soil that has been perpetrated by refugees since 9/11. This fact is true, whether you like it or not, and easily verifiable. The article you posted stated that two refugees were arrested in 2009 in regards to aiding al-Qaeda in Iraq. Not the same thing, very important difference. Please get your facts straight about this.

"Refugee resettlement is the least likely route for potential terrorists, says Kathleen Newland at the Migration Policy Institute, a think-tank. Of the 745,000 refugees resettled since September 11th, only two Iraqis in Kentucky have been arrested on terrorist charges, for aiding al-Qaeda in Iraq."
http://www.economist.com/news/unite...ng?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/ed/yearningtobreathefree
 
[QUOTE="asta, post: 54751940, member: 27219"Another thought on the refugee issue. Rather than trusting those who keep posting wrong information on lack of possible threats I think the fact that a great number of our governors are calling for at least more caution should be given weight. Leaving politics out, these governors have more information and more responsibilities than any of us have. If it were just one or two then you can call it a knee jerk reaction but their growing numbers should give pause. Governors have to manage the day to day running of their state. The Feds don't.

At this point, I'm seriously think you are baiting us, but whatever. What people said about refugees is that there is not a single attack on the US soil that has been perpetrated by refugees since 9/11. This fact is true, whether you like it or not, and easily verifiable. The article you posted stated that two refugees were arrested in 2009 in regards to aiding al-Qaeda in Iraq. Not the same thing, very important difference. Please get your facts straight about this.

"Refugee resettlement is the least likely route for potential terrorists, says Kathleen Newland at the Migration Policy Institute, a think-tank. Of the 745,000 refugees resettled since September 11th, only two Iraqis in Kentucky have been arrested on terrorist charges, for aiding al-Qaeda in Iraq."
http://www.economist.com/news/unite...ng?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/ed/yearningtobreathefree[/QUOTE]

I'm confused, are you suggesting that it's no big deal to aid al Qaeda? Aid al Qaeda, full stop, in any fashion? No harm, no foul?
 
Another thought on the refugee issue. Rather than trusting those who keep posting wrong information on lack of possible threats I think the fact that a great number of our governors are calling for at least more caution should be given weight. Leaving politics out, these governors have more information and more responsibilities than any of us have. If it were just one or two then you can call it a knee jerk reaction but their growing numbers should give pause. Governors have to manage the day to day running of their state. The Feds don't.

At this point, I'm seriously think you are baiting us, but whatever. What people said about refugees is that there is not a single attack on the US soil that has been perpetrated by refugees since 9/11. This fact is true, whether you like it or not, and easily verifiable. The article you posted stated that two refugees were arrested in 2009 in regards to aiding al-Qaeda in Iraq. Not the same thing, very important difference. Please get your facts straight about this.

"Refugee resettlement is the least likely route for potential terrorists, says Kathleen Newland at the Migration Policy Institute, a think-tank. Of the 745,000 refugees resettled since September 11th, only two Iraqis in Kentucky have been arrested on terrorist charges, for aiding al-Qaeda in Iraq."
http://www.economist.com/news/unite...ng?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/ed/yearningtobreathefree

The issue is that most people consider letting terrorists posing as refugees into the country as the main problem. We don't consider the fact that we have been able (so far) to catch some of them before they could engage in more terrorism on our soil to be as significant.

Since we are discussing the potential of terrorists being among the refugees and not how effective our law enforcement is, it makes it less relevant to keep using a "not a single attack" argument when trying to make a case that there are "no terrorists posing as refugees". Especially when the "not a single attack" stat morphs into "no refugee in the US has been involved in terrorism" which is not at all true.
 

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