Explosions and shootings in Paris

[gwynne]

France just confirmed Abaaoud was one of the dead in yesterday's raid.

I hope they keep up the pressure though.

I believe they will. They certainly understand they are dealing a large percentage of home grown terror.
I also think the French will keep up the pressure on the EU to make changes, tighten up borders.

 

[eliza61]

In Iraq we were not eradicating terrorism at the start we were more to stop Saddam and his aiding of terrorist, in Afghanistan we were at the start. The war in Iraq became a war on terrorists as terrorists flooded into the region to fight the infidels. With the change of administrations we began the draw down and eventual withdrawal of troops in IRAQ and a timetable to end operations in Afghanistan. I don't think we were bankrupting our own country as defense spending still only represents a small percentage of the US Budget. I think that the results are more striking when you think of the US not supporting the region with the genocide that is happening in Syria, Iraq, Libya, Nigeria, and so many other places. Of course we can put our heads in the sand like those so many times in the past until it comes here and than it is to late. So you can listen to the talking heads and say it is not our fight. Those same thoughts were around before WWI and WWII. We took action in Korea and Vietnam. South Korea is still Free and we are still there, Vietnam fell, we left, but all of Southeast Asia did not all fall to communism.

Here's the thing Patch. this is not communism nor WWII. this is a total different type of enemy. No where did I SAY its not my fight but we can no longer be the worlds police ad infinitum nor am I listening to any other "talking" heads than you How are we sticking our heads in the sand?
We took action in Korea and North KOrea is still communist. and I still do not see any result from Afghanistan.

Exactly what has changed in Iraq? lol, yeah we stop Saddam from aiding terrorist and..... oh yeah terrorist moved in.

So basically unless we start invading Syria, Iraq, libya, Nigeria and keep armed troops there until the end of time and then when the moved into Eastern Europe we then send troops into those countries.


Oh and now they are reporting that the mastermind wasn't even a practicing muslim from Syria. just a wackadoodle who wanted world domination who moved to Syria. My talking heads are also reporting that many were "home grown" as in France terrorist?

 

[lizabu]

Interesting information about Abaaoud coming out. His family says he never went to mosque and in fact he attended Catholic school. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ut-the-paris-attacks-mastermind-a6738776.html

 

[cabanafrau]

Interesting information about Abaaoud coming out. His family says he never went to mosque and in fact he attended Catholic school. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ut-the-paris-attacks-mastermind-a6738776.html

Strange, on the television last night I saw footage purportedly of the mosque he was known to attend. Information is bound to be murky with the media wanting to be first to report, needing to produce a 24/7 slate of content, a family no doubt looking to avoid suspicion themselves and probably hoping to minimize the guilt of their son, etc.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

But they are not automatics

They have separate regulations restricting semi-automatics & full automatics are banned. What I'm reading is that if you have a standard hunting rifle in a military caliber, you're subject to more restrictions than a standard hunting rifle in a non-military caliber (which is actually more likely to be more deadly than one in a military caliber).

Sorry for the off topic, this just got my attention.

 

[cabanafrau]

Among the many questions I have about the vetting process is how and where are the supportive documentation of background checks being obtained? Does anybody really imagine it's possible to ring up Damascus or go to a website, make a records request and, voila, in four to six weeks you receive a packet of info per your request?

I fail to see what's wrong with asking that we double check our math, measure twice and cut once? I also fail to see why it's appropriate to advocate for the necessity of the establishment of a Palestinian state in their homeland, yet the first choice for Syrian people displaced by those who wish to tyrannize or eradicate them is to disburse them around the globe? We may in fact be doing the Syrian refugees and their cultural heritage a grave disservice. Is that not worthy of careful consideration as well?

Authored with the belief that it's not necessary to scour the google in order to post thoughts others may not deem suitably substantive.

 

[gwynne]

Interesting information about Abaaoud coming out. His family says he never went to mosque and in fact he attended Catholic school. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ut-the-paris-attacks-mastermind-a6738776.html

Strange, on the television last night I saw footage purportedly of the mosque he was known to attend. Information is bound to be murky with the media wanting to be first to report, needing to produce a 24/7 slate of content, a family no doubt looking to avoid suspicion themselves and probably hoping to minimize the guilt of their son, etc.

I tend to think both are true. He probably was sent to parochial school. He probably also went to mosque...either family truly didn't know, or they just don't way to admit.

 

[cabanafrau]

I tend to think both are true. He probably was sent to parochial school. He probably also went to mosque...either family truly didn't know, or they just don't way to admit.

I suspect the same.

 

[asta]

Interesting information about Abaaoud coming out. His family says he never went to mosque and in fact he attended Catholic school. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ut-the-paris-attacks-mastermind-a6738776.html

I absolutely do not believe them. Others say he went to mosque and there are interviews where he says he says he wants to kill in the name of Islam. I don't have a printed link to cite but this information come from CNN reports.

For what it is worth, I don't think these guys really have anything to do with Islam. They meet in prison, run bars that are drug dens. Maybe a strategy against ISIS is to continue to hammer their true nature as common criminals, just an especially brutal version. Maybe with enough light shown on them other Islamic people will be willing to stop giving them cover.

 

[CPanther95]

"He briefly took classes at a Catholic school before dropping out or getting expelled." Doesn't sound like he converted. If he did, clearly the radical-Muslim part of him won out in the end.

 

[SparklePixie]

Didn't realize that they suspected Abaaoud of being the guy who planned the train attack that was thwarted by passengers recently.

Is he the same guy in the picture they were showing of the guy that got away from the Paris attacks - or is that guy still on the loose?

No, they are 2 different people. The guy they are showing in pictures (looks like a mug shot) is still on the loose.

 

[chmurf]

I also think the French will keep up the pressure on the EU to make changes, tighten up borders.

very unlikely

simple story from the French point of view.

France has put chicanes (zigzag) on a road between Spain and France. This main highway was used by Go Fast drug smugglers.
This was put in place to give the police a chance to look inside the cars as they pass, and to break down speed.

What happened ?

France was fined by EU.
Reason ? The Schengen Treaty states that you MUST be able to cross borders at speeds in excess of 20MPH (30Km/h roughly)

Now, the border tightening is a joke. It's only PR nothing more.

Stronger border control is only blocking those who do not pose a threat.

Borders have never prevented criminals to come through.
Think of your Mexico/USA border. You, americans, have very strict immigration laws, you have very efficient Border Patrols, and CBP sure do their jobs. You've got a wall.
How many illegal immigrants do you have ?

Now you need to understand that Europe is not the USA

I live in the north of France. Actually I'm less than 5 miles from Belgium. (which has been a rear base for the terrorists last week)
What is the border like ?
It's a city street. No, don't think it's a street where you drive through a gate. Up the road is one country, down the road is another.
No, Belgium is on the right hand side of the road, and France is on the left hand side of the road. And that street is miles long. And such streets are all over the border line.

So to cross from one country to another, you just need to cross the road. (2 lanes city street).

How do you tighten that ?

we even have houses where the house itself in one country, and the garden is in another country

how do you control that ?

 

[gwynne]

very unlikely

simple story from the French point of view.

France has put chicanes (zigzag) on a road between Spain and France. This main highway was used by Go Fast drug smugglers.
This was put in place to give the police a chance to look inside the cars as they pass, and to break down speed.

What happened ?

France was fined by EU.
Reason ? The Schengen Treaty states that you MUST be able to cross borders at speeds in excess of 20MPH (30Km/h roughly)

Now, the border tightening is a joke. It's only PR nothing more.

Stronger border control is only blocking those who do not pose a threat.

Borders have never prevented criminals to come through.
Think of your Mexico/USA border. You, americans, have very strict immigration laws, you have very efficient Border Patrols, and CBP sure do their jobs. You've got a wall.
How many illegal immigrants do you have ?

Now you need to understand that Europe is not the USA

I live in the north of France. Actually I'm less than 5 miles from Belgium. (which has been a rear base for the terrorists last week)
What is the border like ?
It's a city street. No, don't think it's a street where you drive through a gate. Up the road is one country, down the road is another.
No, Belgium is on the right hand side of the road, and France is on the left hand side of the road. And that street is miles long. And such streets are all over the border line.

So to cross from one country to another, you just need to cross the road. (2 lanes city street).

How do you tighten that ?

we even have houses where the house itself in one country, and the garden is in another country

how do you control that ?

One could also say the exact same things about parts of Canada. Is it making some changes going to solve 1000% of all the issues? Of course not.

I lived quite near the French border for a few years...so I know some of what you are talking about with ways around borders.
On the other hand, some would think making it harder is better than doing nothing. We'll see what happens.

 

[lizabu]

I absolutely do not believe them. Others say he went to mosque and there are interviews where he says he says he wants to kill in the name of Islam. I don't have a printed link to cite but this information come from CNN reports.

For what it is worth, I don't think these guys really have anything to do with Islam. They meet in prison, run bars that are drug dens. Maybe a strategy against ISIS is to continue to hammer their true nature as common criminals, just an especially brutal version. Maybe with enough light shown on them other Islamic people will be willing to stop giving them cover.

I agree 100% that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam. It's pretty clear that they are trying to trigger a holy war and that will never work if you don't believe they are Muslim. Their plan appears to be working. We are already seeing mosques getting vandalized and even a lady in Toronto was attacked as she dropped her child off at school. ISIS wants non-Muslims to hate Muslims as it will make it easier for them to recruit and they will have justification for their crimes. I think the more information that comes out show that these terrorists were never religious people at all.

 

[cabanafrau]

One could also say the exact same things about parts of Canada. Is it making some changes going to solve 1000% of all the issues? Of course not.

I lived quite near the French border for a few years...so I know some of what you are talking about with ways around borders.
On the other hand, some would think making it harder is better than doing nothing. We'll see what happens.

This isn't a problem with one solution. Even a multi pronged approach will leave gaps -- and motivate a change in tactics from the opposition. In the end, the more obstacles that close up gaps will narrow the focus enough that it potentially will make it easier to monitor and hopefully contain potential threats before further attacks.

 

[NHdisneylover]

France was fined by EU.
Reason ? The Schengen Treaty states that you MUST be able to cross borders at speeds in excess of 20MPH (30Km/h roughly)

?

How does Switzerland get away with it then? We cross through there several times a year and ALWAYS end up going about 10 KPH as they have everyone slowing down and guards physically looking for the vignettes on the windshield.

And why would the EU fine France over a Schnegen zone agreement? That seems odd to me since the two overlap but are not at all the same.

I am not saying you are wrong--I just have never heard this and wonder how that fits. Thanks for any insight you can add.

 

[cabanafrau]

Did anyone happen to see the interview aired on CNN last night with the young couple who escaped the massacre at the concert Friday night? I saw part of it and could not contain tears. The young woman in particular had me mesmerized by her steadfast expression of her experience and her determination to face death with only love in her heart as her silent defiance of the murderers she was faced with. Her description of the fact that in the midst of the horror and her extreme fear she also felt the love in the hearts of her fellow captives flooding the room is something I will never forget. Such a bittersweet and amazing interview.

 

[asta]

I agree 100% that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam. It's pretty clear that they are trying to trigger a holy war and that will never work if you don't believe they are Muslim. Their plan appears to be working. We are already seeing mosques getting vandalized and even a lady in Toronto was attacked as she dropped her child off at school. ISIS wants non-Muslims to hate Muslims as it will make it easier for them to recruit and they will have justification for their crimes. I think the more information that comes out show that these terrorists were never religious people at all.

The anti Muslim sentiment could be helped a lot by Muslims getting much more aggressive and public in attacks against ISIS. I am not being anti Muslim but ISIS lives and indoctrinates in their midst. They are in a better position to expose this evil.

I support and hope we strengthen our immigration policies but that alone will not work. These guys don't live in a vacuum. Someone always knows and the civilized world needs to increase the pressure for them to come forward.

 

[cabanafrau]

The anti Muslim sentiment could be helped a lot by Muslims getting much more aggressive and public in attacks against ISIS. I am not being anti Muslim but ISIS lives and indoctrinates in their midst. They are in a better position to expose this evil.

I support and hope we strengthen our immigration policies but that alone will not work. These guys don't live in a vacuum. Someone always knows and the civilized world needs to increase the pressure for them to come forward.

IMO this will ultimately be won when outlined as black and white, you either wish to live as a member of a peaceful civilization coexisting with our differences or you don't. Battle line clearly drawn.

 

[chmurf]

How does Switzerland get away with it then?

Switzerland is in the Schengen Treaty but not in the EU.

EU can not fine a non member state.