Explosions and shootings in Paris

[asta]

At this point, I'm seriously think you are baiting us, but whatever. What people said about refugees is that there is not a single attack on the US soil that has been perpetrated by refugees since 9/11. This fact is true, whether you like it or not, and easily verifiable. The article you posted stated that two refugees were arrested in 2009 in regards to aiding al-Qaeda in Iraq. Not the same thing, very important difference. Please get your facts straight about this.

"Refugee resettlement is the least likely route for potential terrorists, says Kathleen Newland at the Migration Policy Institute, a think-tank. Of the 745,000 refugees resettled since September 11th, only two Iraqis in Kentucky have been arrested on terrorist charges, for aiding al-Qaeda in Iraq."
http://www.economist.com/news/unite...ng?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/ed/yearningtobreathefree

You have got to be kidding. Talk about baiting. From your responses you think it is not terrorism for these guys to buy and ship equipment to kill our soldiers? But beyond that have you not read the whole story? I will quote it here for you:

Worse, prosecutors later revealed at Hammadi's sentencing hearing that he and Alwan had been caught on an FBI surveillance tape talking about using a bomb to assassinate an Army captain they'd known in Bayji, who was now back home – and to possibly attack other homeland targets.

"Many things should take place and it should be huge," Hammadi told Alwan in an FBI-recorded conversation, which a prosecutor read at Hammadi's sentencing last year.

That was here in America. Attacks on American soil. Could that be any clearer? It is in the cited article. What could make this any clearer for you.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

The issue is that most people consider letting terrorists posing as refugees into the country as the main problem. We don't consider the fact that we have been able (so far) to catch some of them before they could engage in more terrorism on our soil to be as significant.

Since we are discussing the potential of terrorists being among the refugees and not how effective our law enforcement is, it makes it less relevant to keep using a "not a single attack" argument when trying to make a case that there are "no terrorists posing as refugees". Especially when the "not a single attack" stat morphs into "no refugee in the US has been involved in terrorism" which is not at all true.

What does any of it matter? Terrorists are going to pose as workers, students, refugees, and so on. There is no solution to stop terrorism as an entity trying to set up cells in other countries.

You can put measures in place to slow the terrorists however once a "rule" is in place, they are going to "hack" the rules and beat the system.

What is the best way to handle all of this? I have no clue.

 

[CPanther95]

You can put measures in place to slow the terrorists however once a "rule" is in place, they are going to "hack" the rules and beat the system.

What is the best way to handle all of this? I have no clue.

That's exactly what people want. Come up with a plan to handle it before opening up the floodgates. Once you're hacked, you have to come up with something better.

 

[nanienamou]

Another difference that Graeme Wood pointed out in his Atlantic article on ISIS was that one key difference between ISIS and bin Laden & Co. is that while bin Ladel was always coy with the outside about what his organization was up to, ISIS it quite upfront about their plans. They are more than happy to tell you what they're doing. While further screening will probably keep them from exiting the EU for the US, ISIS is very open that they are sneaking in "fighters" into the EU under the cover of being Syrian refugees. They may be inflating the numbers as they brag about it, but there's little doubt that they're doing it to some degree, but once again we have many people in the West that are refusing to take ISIS at their word. As one person I read pointed out, it's like watching ISIS and those in the West playing the parts in a surreal version of Monty Python's "Argument Clinic" sketch...

ISIS: We're sneaking people into the EU disguised as "refugees", right under your noses!

West: No you're not!

ISIS: Yes, we are.

Thank you. Even though I'm not seeing things your way, I appreciate that you are taking the time to write something that has substance...

That being said, I don't think that people are not taking ISIS at their word. What is being said is that, at some point, we have to accept that we are living in a reality where there is no risk zero. There will likely be more attacks before this gets better/solved. It's a new normal, as sad as it may sound.

The refugees are caught in the middle between us and ISIS. It's a damn if you do, damn if you don't situation. If you refuse the refugees (I believe ISIS is counting on this), it will give them more power on the field to recruit, using the argument that the Western world does not want to help Muslims in need, that we are intolerant, etc. More recruits means more power and more attacks. And we are seeing that this recruitment is done in our own countries (Belgium and France in this case), so chance are people are already in place in many western countries, ready to act. On the other hand, ISIS is saying that they have the plan to infiltrate the refugees, so if we take them, we are facing attacks in our country by these "refugees". So what do you do? It seems like the general feeling is that we must take in the refugees (this is Canada's, France and even your President's stance on the subject).

 

[The Mystery Machine]

That's exactly what people want. Come up with a plan to handle it before opening up the floodgates. Once you're hacked, you have to come up with something better.

Sounds nice in theory but the reality is refugees are already being processed in other countries. That barn door is already closed.

 

[Geoff_M]

Since we are discussing the potential of terrorists being among the refugees and not how effective our law enforcement is, it makes it less relevant to keep using a "not a single attack" argument when trying to make a case that there are "no terrorists posing as refugees". Especially when the "not a single attack" stat morphs into "no refugee in the US has been involved in terrorism" which is not at all true.

Also, consider, in the openness I mentioned a few posts ago, ISIS has already declared their intentions in an official video posted a few days ago that they intend to follow up Paris with a strike against Washington, DC. US agencies are responding and "security is ramping up across the country" beyond standard levels, so why is it improper to not exempted refugee programs from any additional scrutiny? Should we assume that we're already doing everything we can with these programs... consistently? And quite frankly, it that last point that usually is the point of failure. I linked to it earlier, but two weeks ago 60 Minutes did a segment on the US's vetting system for secret security clearance.

On paper, it looks great... but in practice it often suffers from serious lapses. Edward Snowden, "Chelsea" Manning, and Aaron Alexis (the mass shooter that attacked the Navy Yard in DC a couple years ago) are three major examples of recent failures of that vetting process. All three of them had information on their security applications that were red flags, but all three of them passed muster. For example, Alexis truthfully stated in the "arrests" section that he had once been found guilty of "letting air out of some tires"... but didn't bother to say the tool he used was a gun. A simple look at this arrest record would have exposed the omission, but it didn't happen even though it should have been done per protocol. So, you'll have to understand that because of examples like these that I don't take complete comfort in hearing the response "but they'll all been through, and passed, a vetting process!"

 

[WIcruizer]

I'm sure the vetting this time around will be magically better than when these people were vetted:

• An immigrant from Muslim-dominated Bangladesh, who applied for and received U.S. citizenship,‎ tried to incite people to travel to Somalia and conduct violent jihad against the United States. He was arrested in Texas in 2014.

• In July 2015, a Cuban immigrant inspired by Islamic extremists plotted to explode a backpack bomb filled with nails on a beach in Key West.

• An immigrant from Ghana, who applied for and received U.S. citizenship, pledged allegiance to ISIS and plotted a terrorist attack on U.S. soil. He attacked an FBI agent with a large kitchen knife when the agent was searching his home in June in Staten Island, New York. The search was connected to an investigation stemming from the weekend arrest of Munther Omar Saleh, a 20-year-old U.S. citizen charged with conspiring to provide material support to ISIS, CNN reported.

• An immigrant from Sudan living in northern Virginia, who applied for and received U.S. citizenship, tried to join ISIS and wage jihad on its behalf after having been recruited online. He pleaded guilty in federal court in June 2015 to providing material support to ISIS and his friend, according to court records, is now a member of the Islamic State fighting force in Syria.

• A Muslim refugee couple from Bosnia, along with their five relatives living in Missouri, Illinois and New York, were charged in February 2015 with sending money, supplies and smuggled arms to ISIS and other terrorist organizations in Syria and Iraq.

• A Muslim immigrant from Yemen, who applied for and received U.S. citizenship, along with six other men living in Minnesota as members of refugee families, were charged in April 2015 with conspiracy to travel to Syria and to provide material support to ISIS.

• A Somali refugee with lawful permanent resident status, along with four other Somali nationals, were charged July 23, 2014, with leading an al-Shabaab terrorist fundraising conspiracy in the United States, with monthly payments directed to the Somali terrorist organization.

• A Kazakhstani immigrant with lawful permanent resident status conspired to purchase a machine gun to shoot FBI and other law enforcement agents if they prevented him from traveling to Syria to join ISIS. He and two others from Uzbekistan, both living in Brooklyn, were charged in February 2015 with providing material support a foreign terrorist organization.

• Two female immigrants, one from Saudi Arabia and one from Yemen, one of whom applied for and received U.S. citizenship, allegedly swore allegiance to ISIS and pledged to explode a propane tank bomb on U.S. soil. They were arrested in April 2015 during an FBI undercover raid on their house in Queens, New York.

• A Uzbek man in Brooklyn allegedly encouraged other Uzbek nationals to wage jihad on behalf of ISIS, and raised $1,600 for the terror organization. The arrests were announced in February and April 2015.

• The Boston Bombers were invited in as asylum seekers. The younger brother applied for citizenship and was naturalized on Sept. 11, 2012. The older brother had a pending application for citizenship.

• A Moroccan Muslim who came to the U.S. on a student visa was arrested and charged in April 2014 with plotting to blow up a university and a federal courthouse.

• Six members of Minnesota’s Somali-American refugee community have recently been charged with trying to join ISIS. The Washington Times reported that “the effort [to resettle large groups of Somali refugees in Minnesota] is having the unintended consequence of creating an enclave of immigrants with high unemployment that is both stressing the state’s safety net and creating a rich pool of potential recruiting targets for Islamist terror groups.”

• An Uzbek refugee living in Boise, Idaho, was arrested in 2013 and charged with providing support to a terrorist organization, in the form of teaching terror recruits how to build bombs to blow up U.S. military installations. He was convicted in August 2015.

• A teenage American citizen living in York, South Carolina, whose family emigrated from Syria, was sentenced in April 2015 for plotting to support ISIS and rob a gun store to kill members of the American military.

• A Muslim immigrant from Syria living in Ohio, who later applied for and received U.S. citizenship, was accused by federal prosecutors of planning to “go to a military base in Texas and kill three or four American soldiers execution style.”

• A college student, who came to America as a refugee from Somalia and later applied for and received U.S. citizenship, attempted to blow up a Christmas tree lighting ceremony in Oregon. He was sentenced in October 2014 to 30 years in prison.

• An immigrant from Afghanistan, who later applied for and received U.S. citizenship, and a legal permanent resident from the Philippines, were convicted Sept. 25, 2014, for trying to “join Al Qaeda and the Taliban in order to kill Americans.”

• An Iraqi immigrant, who later applied for and received U.S. citizenship, was arrested in May 2015 for lying to federal agents about pledging allegiance to ISIS and his travels to Syria.

• Two Pakistani-American brothers living in New York, who later applied for and received U.S citizenship, were sentenced in June 2015 to decades-long prison sentences for plotting to detonate a bomb in New York City.

• An immigrant from Muslim-dominated Yemen, who later applied for and received U.S. citizenship, was arrested in September 2014 in Rochester, New York, for allegedly trying to join ISIS. He was also charged with attempting to illegally buy firearms to try to shoot American military personnel.

• An immigrant brought here by his family from Kuwait at age 6, and who was later approved for U.S. citizenship, carried out the jihadist attack that recently killed four U.S. Marines and a sailor in Chattanooga on July 16, 2015, using an AK-47 semi-automatic weapon against unarmed military men.

 

[manning]

Well, I watched all the CSI shows, so I'm expecting a result in just under an hour.

That long ?

 

[manning]

The quote of the day by Putin.

'To Forgive The Terrorists Is Up To God, But To Send Them To Him Is Up To Me'

 

[manning]

France gun law

In France, to buy a firearm, a hunting licence or a shooting sport license is necessary. All semi-automatic rifles with a capacity greater than 3 rounds, all handguns and all rifles chambered in 'military' calibres, including bolt action, require permits. These are known as B1, B2 and B4 type permits. Firearms are divided into eight categories that determine the regulations that apply to their possession and use. France also sets limits on the number of cartridges that can be kept at home (1000 rounds per gun).
The total number of firearms owned by an individual is also subject to limits (not possible to have more than 12 authorizations/permits on B1, B2 and B4 type firearms).[95] As of September, 2013, France has a capacity limit of 20 rounds for handguns;[96] one needs a permit for category one[clarification needed] semi-automatics that have a capacity greater than 3 rounds. Fully automatic firearms are illegal for civilian ownership.
Guess the terrorists didn't obey the law.

 

[asta]

The issue is that most people consider letting terrorists posing as refugees into the country as the main problem. We don't consider the fact that we have been able (so far) to catch some of them before they could engage in more terrorism on our soil to be as significant.

Since we are discussing the potential of terrorists being among the refugees and not how effective our law enforcement is, it makes it less relevant to keep using a "not a single attack" argument when trying to make a case that there are "no terrorists posing as refugees". Especially when the "not a single attack" stat morphs into "no refugee in the US has been involved in terrorism" which is not at all true.

I am so glad that you understand the article I cited. I was beginning to think we were in an alternate universe where zero means something different. In the case of the refugee terrorists in Kentucky, I think we can all be glad the the FBI bailed out a faulty refugee policy that allowed these terrorists to enter as refugees and proceed with plans to kill Americans here and abroad. I shudder to think what carnage they would have caused without the FBI.

 

[ford family]

France gun law

In France, to buy a firearm, a hunting licence or a shooting sport license is necessary. All semi-automatic rifles with a capacity greater than 3 rounds, all handguns and all rifles chambered in 'military' calibres, including bolt action, require permits. These are known as B1, B2 and B4 type permits. Firearms are divided into eight categories that determine the regulations that apply to their possession and use. France also sets limits on the number of cartridges that can be kept at home (1000 rounds per gun).
The total number of firearms owned by an individual is also subject to limits (not possible to have more than 12 authorizations/permits on B1, B2 and B4 type firearms).[95] As of September, 2013, France has a capacity limit of 20 rounds for handguns;[96] one needs a permit for category one[clarification needed] semi-automatics that have a capacity greater than 3 rounds. Fully automatic firearms are illegal for civilian ownership.
Guess the terrorists didn't obey the law.

Guess you are cutting and pasting Wikipedia but pretending you wrote it?
Did you start out to be disingenuous and make some obtuse comment about the consequence of gun law in the US and gun law in France?
Isn't plagiarising just dishonest?
Guess that is just like your argument.

ford family

 

[TLSnell1981]

Guess you are cutting and pasting Wikipedia but pretending you wrote it?
Did you start out to be disingenuous and make some obtuse comment about the consequence of gun law in the US and gun law in France?
Isn't plagiarising just dishonest?
Guess that is just like your argument.

ford family

It's obvious, that it was copied and pasted. Doesn't look like PP claimed to be the author....

 

[robinb]

Guess you are cutting and pasting Wikipedia but pretending you wrote it?
Did you start out to be disingenuous and make some obtuse comment about the consequence of gun law in the US and gun law in France?
Isn't plagiarising just dishonest?
Guess that is just like your argument.

ford family

It's from World Net Daily. Enough said.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

France gun law

In France, to buy a firearm, a hunting licence or a shooting sport license is necessary. All semi-automatic rifles with a capacity greater than 3 rounds, all handguns and all rifles chambered in 'military' calibres, including bolt action, require permits. These are known as B1, B2 and B4 type permits. Firearms are divided into eight categories that determine the regulations that apply to their possession and use. France also sets limits on the number of cartridges that can be kept at home (1000 rounds per gun).
The total number of firearms owned by an individual is also subject to limits (not possible to have more than 12 authorizations/permits on B1, B2 and B4 type firearms).[95] As of September, 2013, France has a capacity limit of 20 rounds for handguns;[96] one needs a permit for category one[clarification needed] semi-automatics that have a capacity greater than 3 rounds. Fully automatic firearms are illegal for civilian ownership.
Guess the terrorists didn't obey the law.

I find it interesting that there are special restrictions on rifles chambered in "military calibres". Typical of the kind of law written by someone who knows ZERO about firearms.

The typical deer hunting rifle caliber is double the power of the AK47, and 2.5 times the power of the M16/M4.

 

[manning]

I find it interesting that there are special restrictions on rifles chambered in "military calibres". Typical of the kind of law written by someone who knows ZERO about firearms.

The typical deer hunting rifle caliber is double the power of the AK47, and 2.5 times the power of the M16/M4.

But they are not automatics

 

[mom2rtk]

France just confirmed Abaaoud was one of the dead in yesterday's raid.

I hope they keep up the pressure though.

 

[Jon84]

France just confirmed Abaaoud was one of the dead in yesterday's raid.

I hope they keep up the pressure though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34867615

Good news.

 

[CPanther95]

Didn't realize that they suspected Abaaoud of being the guy who planned the train attack that was thwarted by passengers recently.

Is he the same guy in the picture they were showing of the guy that got away from the Paris attacks - or is that guy still on the loose?

 

[Jon84]

Is he the same guy in the picture they were showing of the guy that got away from the Paris attacks - or is that guy still on the loose?

That guy is still out there they think. Unless there are more than 2 dead, in which case he could be dead also