Explosions and shootings in Paris

[gwynne]

Interesting to see when those religious sprinkles sparkle in the light of day.

I understand some see them primarily as people of great religious fervor.
I see them as hard core gang members and criminals that use religion as it suits them.

 

[eliza61]

I don't think Turkey, France or Germany would allow the footholds like what happens now. I am concerned about the 129 innocents in France or the 2077 Innocents killed on 9/11. How many innocents were killed in the 289 Terrorist attacks this year. If a country wants to provide safe harbor for these terrorists than they risk harm to their infrastructure and their populations. What we are doing now is not working and it's time to turn up the heat.

Ok, and the war in afghanistan was successful? seems to me all bombing has done is made more terrorist. the proof is right there in Paris. we've been drone attacking isis for a while now.
What do you mean turning up the heat? send in troops? drop a nuke? militarily you don't have a bunch of options. dropping a nuke is out, plain and simple. so what's the heat you speak of. I damn sure ain't sending my kid to war.

 

[Patch'sD]

I think we walked out of Afghanistan and Iraq before the job was done. That's what happens when you tell the enemy when you plan on leaving. Sort of like saying when bad guys have guns and bombs, there is nothing you can do.

 

[TLSnell1981]

BREAKING:

Fans are being evacuated. The game between Germany and the Netherlands cancelled.

 

[wilkeliza]

Back to the question of what motivates someone to join ISIS (particularly leaving a 1st World existence to do so), the flip side of that question is, "what terrifies ISIS?". They all seem convinced that their individual demise will only bring Nirvana in the afterlife. So, how do we convince them otherwise?

What terrifies ISIS is people living together peacefully and respecting differences in religion and upbringing. When there is no "us vs them" mentality then ISIS can not survive. They thrive on conflict more specifically Islamophobia. If we could put aside our differences and stand together then ISIS wouldn't so easily be able to say "See they hate us so we must get rid of them. It is them or us." If we didn't so easily give them the fodder for the them or us rhetoric then ISIS would not be as fast growing as it is.

 

[eliza61]

Back to the question of what motivates someone to join ISIS (particularly leaving a 1st World existence to do so), the flip side of that question is, "what terrifies ISIS?". They all seem convinced that their individual demise will only bring Nirvana in the afterlife. So, how do we convince them otherwise?

I don't think anyone really knows Gumbo. And as said as it is to say it may be an issue of they are not afraid. One thing I would like to see is what their support system is.
Remember from your history ( and this is going back) one of the things that made Sherman so successful during the civil war was he purposely went after the "backer uppers" of the south. He said constantly that he wanted to deprive the Confederate of it's support.
Take that idea to ISIS. where are they getting their weapons? how are they accessing internet feeds? how are they being fed, clothe, house

 

[cabanafrau]

Back to the question of what motivates someone to join ISIS (particularly leaving a 1st World existence to do so), the flip side of that question is, "what terrifies ISIS?". They all seem convinced that their individual demise will only bring Nirvana in the afterlife. So, how do we convince them otherwise?

That's one of those questions I think fits the adage, "you can't fix crazy."

 

[eliza61]

I think we walked out of Afghanistan and Iraq before the job was done. That's what happens when you tell the enemy when you plan on leaving. Sort of like saying when bad guys have guns and bombs, there is nothing you can do.

????
Serious question. what job? we were not eradicating terrorism, we were bankrupting our own country, we were losing our own sons lives and no discernible results. How long should we have staid, 10, 20, 30 years? occupy.

 

[cabanafrau]

I understand some see them primarily as people of great religious fervor.
I see them as hard core gang members and criminals that use religion as it suits them.

Exactly what I was referring to. The notion that the "religion demands I be in control over you, murder them, take your home, drive you from your community, rape you, etc." I don't see how that fools anybody.

 

[cabanafrau]

What terrifies ISIS is people living together peacefully and respecting differences in religion and upbringing. When there is no "us vs them" mentality then ISIS can not survive. They thrive on conflict more specifically Islamophobia. If we could put aside our differences and stand together then ISIS wouldn't so easily be able to say "See they hate us so we must get rid of them. It is them or us." If we didn't so easily give them the fodder for the them or us rhetoric then ISIS would not be as fast growing as it is.

Absolutely. More importantly it doesn't give them the platform from which to claim a mandate to subjugate anybody, which is really what their goal is.

 

[NFLDERS]

I haven't visited Toronto in several years, but are you saying that the streets of downtown Toronto aren't peopled by a homeless population anymore? That would be good news.

Post #592 explains her stance better. I didn't think she could be that naive so, I gave her the benefit of doubt.

Edited to add: I do not think anyone should be "Patting their country on the back" ie Universal Health Care in a thread of this nature.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

That's one of those questions I think fits the adage, "you can't fix crazy."

No, you can't fix crazy, but can you exploit it and use it against them?

 

[nanienamou]

Post #592 explains her stance better. I didn't think she could be that naive so, I gave her the benefit of doubt.

Yes. Thank you. English is my second language, so I'm aware that I'm not always communicating accurately. Of course you can't eradicate homelessness, it would really be naive to say so. What I'm saying is that we are some of the most fortunate people of the world. Especially here, we have social programs, health care, education, welfare, etc. It's not perfect, but it's still exceptional. We have the possibility and the resources to help these refugees and we should. I'm saying that the benefits in helping these refugees largely outweigh the risks.

 

[cabanafrau]

No, you can't fix crazy, but can you exploit it and use it against them?

It's funny you should ask. I tried and failed to come up with the words to express a fantasy I have about taking these dirtbags into captivity one at a time and subjecting them to a brainwashing system of psychological warfare where each and every one of their repugnant "beliefs" is turned on its head, starting with the premise that the supreme being is female and society is matriarchal and governed that way. I have literally daydreamed about the slackjawed look on their faces as they are forced to live an existence where all evidence and everything they experience 24/7 tells them that is truth and reality, sort of like the concept of the movie The Truman Show where Jim Carrey's character lives in a reality that only he is unaware is fabricated for a television audience.

 

[ChloroformSdxn]

Don't put words in my mouth or tell me what I am saying. I believe in helping fellow citizens of MY country first. When everyone in MY country goes to sleep in a warm bed in a safe home with a full tummy, then we have enough left over to give to others. Until then, I am a firm believer in 'charity begins at home'.

Except it's not a matter of lack of resources that's keeping Americans from being fed or housed. The exact same arguments were made against Jewish immigration as well. I went to highschool with several refugees coming out of the former Yugoslavia (we had a comprehensive ESL program.) All of them have gone on to be contributing, tax-paying members of our country.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005182

 

[Geoff_M]

...but stomping their feet like children and refusing to help doesn't actually prevent the Federal government from moving these refugees into states.

In the case of our state, with the quotes I provided above, what was unreasonable or constituted "childish" behavior in your opinion???

 

[gwynne]

Except it's not a matter of lack of resources that's keeping Americans from being fed or housed. The exact same arguments were made against Jewish immigration as well. I went to highschool with several refugees coming out of the former Yugoslavia (we had a comprehensive ESL program.) All of them have gone on to be contributing, tax-paying members of our country.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005182

Well said. The issues of refugees and hard core homeless are not the same at all.

It's not easy to be a refugee. You have to have a certain degree of initiative and self preservation to get through or survive the process. Many refugees had jobs before, and will use those or similar skills again. Others will work a period of time at unskilled jobs while getting their certifications for their actual profession in order in their new home.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Well said. The issues of refugees and hard core homeless are not the same at all.

It's not easy to be a refugee. You have to have a certain degree of initiative and self preservation to get through (survive) the process. Many refugees had jobs before, and will use those or similar skills again. Others will work a period of time at unskilled jobs while getting their certifications for their actual profession in order.

True. Many refugees have financial means, unlike most, if not all homeless.

 

[luvsJack]

you ever wonder why? because if any plan to help those less fortunate come into play, we here the screaming about "I don't want to pay for it" or "they (insert whatever group we are currently afraid of) will harm us.

I have never heard "the homeless veterans/families/children will harm us" that doesn't even make sense???? These homeless are our citizens. They are here in this country. How are they going to harm us? Do you really think all those not wanting to pay for our own people to be fed are going to want to feed the Syrian refugees? If they can be ignored for one, why not the other?

 

[Geoff_M]

Obviously you are being sarcastic as no one is that uninformed. In order to receive refugee status in the US, an applicant must do the following (from and Economist article)....
Refugees apply for resettlement at American embassies or through the United Nations. If they pass that first hurdle, they are screened by outposts of the Department of State all over the world. They undergo investigations of their biography and identity; FBI biometric checks of their fingerprints and photographs; in-person interviews by Department of Homeland Security officers; medical screenings as well as investigations by the National Counter-terrorism Centre and by American and international intelligence agencies. The process may take as long as three years, sometimes longer. No other person entering America is subjected to such a level of scrutiny.

I believe that's the "normal" process... but that can be abbreviated cases of a humanitarian crisis (which the Syrian crisis, I think would qualify). For example, here's a story about a family from Haiti that was given "temporary status" in the US only a couple of weeks after an earthquake destroyed their home. I doubt the normal process where followed in that case. It's worth asking if any "short cuts" were taken, or are being taken, with the Syrians that we will take in.

If ISIS wants to come to the US to cause harm, all they need to do is secure a tourist visa and they are in the country. It is really, really easy to enter the US. Attempting to come in in order to do harm via refugee status is absurd.

I'm not sure how true that is post-9/11. You also cannot just "show up" with no documentation for a tourist or student visa, unlike someone plucked off a leaky boat in the Mediterranean and given refugee status.