ethics of keeping a dog outside

[snarlingcoyote]

I spoke with someone at a rescue league and asked about her dogs...are any of them from homes where they were kept outside? She acted like I told her I want to do scientific experiments on her dogs or sacrafice them in a religious ritual. She actually said to me she would rather leave a dog on death row than have it live outside. That is an exact quote.

I volunteer with an animal rescue group. People like her just. . .
They are HUGE impediments to No Kill movements. They'd rather kill animals than see them go to homes that are less than THEIR ideal of what THEY think an animal would like.

 

[Sarah_Rose]

I have nothing against outdoor dogs, as long as they are properly socialized and taken care of, but I think you will have difficulty getting one (or two) from a shelter or a rescue. I really don't know anything about your area, or the pet situation, but I know that here in Seattle no one would adopt a dog to a family that planned to house it outdoors. The simple fact is that a lot of dogs that are surrendered to shelters are outdoor dogs that are given up because the owner can't take care of them properly, or they were causing a nuisance in their outdoor home. Therefore, even if you did manage to adopt a dog that is used to living outdoors, you will probably get one that is dangerous (because it is not properly socialized, or has become barrier aggressive from being chained or penned up without proper care) or destructive and not a dog that you would want to own. To be clear, I am not at all saying that all outdoor dogs are dangerous; but many outdoor dogs that are dropped off at the shelter are. Our male german shepherd that we adopted was an outdoor dog that was surrendered because he was barking and snarling at strangers, other dogs, and children - this is because he was chained up in his yard and was bored and had become territorial. If we had taken him home and put him in a similar situation, with an outdoor living space, I expect we would have had a similar outcome. However, with extensive training, socialization, and a structured indoor home, he has become a very sweet and well-behaved companion.

We adopted a female german shepherd a week ago and she is on the other extreme. She was clearly someone's baby, and she follows me around the house. If I had taken her home and put her outside, she would be absolutely miserable. She looks like a "guard dog" but she really just wants someone to rub her belly. She gets along very well with our male shepherd, but they are not each other's "pack". Most dogs that are raised solely with humans will never really bond with other dogs as strongly as they bond with humans.

Anyway, my point is that your chances of getting a good outdoor "guard dog" from a shelter or rescue are very slim, even if you can find someone who is willing to adopt to you. In my opinion, you are better off purchasing two puppies (I'd recommend a brother and sister from the same litter - spay and neutering them as soon as you can, of course) from working lines, from a suitable working dog breed. All of my personal experience comes from shepherds, but I know that some lines of dogs are bred for outdoor work and some are bred as pets, and you're better off buying a working dog - it will be happier with its outdoor "job" and will likely be better suited for outdoor life.

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

Pea-as far as your last sentence...please read my post #12, first sentence!

Fur on dogs help against mosquitoes. I use heartworm preventative on my indoor dog...of course I would do it on my outdoor dogs, too!

No coyotes here.

I would never "leave two dogs alone." It's not like we live on some massive acreage...they will have interaction with myself, my daughter and my husband daily. They are not going to turn into crazed attack animals!

I already talked to homeowners insurance (LOL, see my heated thread about trampolines I posted just a few days ago. We are not getting one because homeowners ins will cancel instantly. I also asked about dogs and horses...those are ok.)

When I say "guard dogs" I don't mean vicious dogs, I mean dogs that will alert me to someone coming onto my property, and will hopefully deter anyone from considering it.

Dmickey-I just moved from a gated community in Weston to this area. I love it, it is a little more "rustic" and this is how I grew up...in Miami, on 5 acres with horses and german shepherds. I just don't like that anyone can drive up to your house...and also the neighbors are more spread out so no one really can see what is going on in your driveway/house.

I *do* understand your point about some dogs not wanting to "guard" and really, we would not know that until we get the dogs...and that could be a bummer! On the other hand, you make a good point about barking. that *is* one of my worries! I am a light sleeper and do not want a dog barking because it sees a cat, or a car coming down the street, or a tree branch falling.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Miami Dade Animal Services would, I pormise you. They kill tons of dogs daily. Did you look at the link I posted? Did you see all those dogs availabe? Maybe the little, cute ones will get adopted...but the big, "ugly" ones? Would my set up be worse than death? Really?

Honestly, some of these "humane" groups would much rather kill, kill, kill animals than let them go to any home that they do not feel is "perfect".

If we treated kids like this, we'd kill off 90% of our kids.

I think your set up is fine. I'd reccomend going to another shelter. They're not all the same. If you need to, go to another state. Try Craig's List and the classifieds on petfinder.com You're saving 2 dogs from death! I think they'd much rather have a nice cool barn to live in and room to frolic and some nice people to play with than a needle full of things to make them stop breathing or a gas chamber.

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

I have nothing against outdoor dogs, as long as they are properly socialized and taken care of, but I think you will have difficulty getting one (or two) from a shelter or a rescue. I really don't know anything about your area, or the pet situation, but I know that here in Seattle no one would adopt a dog to a family that planned to house it outdoors. The simple fact is that a lot of dogs that are surrendered to shelters are outdoor dogs that are given up because the owner can't take care of them properly, or they were causing a nuisance in their outdoor home. Therefore, even if you did manage to adopt a dog that is used to living outdoors, you will probably get one that is dangerous (because it is not properly socialized, or has become barrier aggressive from being chained or penned up without proper care) or destructive and not a dog that you would want to own. To be clear, I am not at all saying that all outdoor dogs are dangerous; but many outdoor dogs that are dropped off at the shelter are. Our male german shepherd that we adopted was an outdoor dog that was surrendered because he was barking and snarling at strangers, other dogs, and children - this is because he was chained up in his yard and was bored and had become territorial. If we had taken him home and put him in a similar situation, with an outdoor living space, I expect we would have had a similar outcome. However, with extensive training, socialization, and a structured indoor home, he has become a very sweet and well-behaved companion.

We adopted a female german shepherd a week ago and she is on the other extreme. She was clearly someone's baby, and she follows me around the house. If I had taken her home and put her outside, she would be absolutely miserable. She looks like a "guard dog" but she really just wants someone to rub her belly. She gets along very well with our male shepherd, but they are not each other's "pack". Most dogs that are raised solely with humans will never really bond with other dogs as strongly as they bond with humans.

Anyway, my point is that your chances of getting a good outdoor "guard dog" from a shelter or rescue are very slim, even if you can find someone who is willing to adopt to you. In my opinion, you are better off purchasing two puppies (I'd recommend a brother and sister from the same litter - spay and neutering them as soon as you can, of course) from working lines, from a suitable working dog breed. All of my personal experience comes from shepherds, but I know that some lines of dogs are bred for outdoor work and some are bred as pets, and you're better off buying a working dog - it will be happier with its outdoor "job" and will likely be better suited for outdoor life.

See...it is funny...I REFUSE to purchase a pet. I do not agree with breeding more dogs when there is an glut of them at the shelter. I will not encourage or condone that by purchasing an animal.

snarlingcoyote-yes, this was a rescue group. I know at the county
animal services (that is the link I posted) they pretty much ask no questions...which is also sad to me. I think there is a happy medium somewhere!

 

[Sarah_Rose]

Owning German Shepherds my whole life these are some of the issues I've had to think through as well. It's been a big challenge for me keeping them friendly and reliable so they don't bite. Realistically, they know the difference between friend and foe because we have a great relationship that we've worked on for countless hours; they know we're in charge and they take their cues from us. That reciprocity comes from being together most of the time.

Just had to respond to this with a . Man, Shepherds, eh? I would never own another breed, but they really make you think. Before adopting my two shepherds, I never thought that being a "fair, strong, and reliable alpha female" would be on my daily to-do list!

 

[maxiesmom]

I think it would be hard to find dogs that you can say for sure will 100% love being outside all of the time, and be great guard dogs. What will you do with them if they don't end up being great guard dogs? Or if they decide that they want to be in the house with your family?

It also sounds to me like you have made up your mind on what you are going to do, so I don't know why you posted.

 

[Sarah_Rose]

See...it is funny...I REFUSE to purchase a pet. I do not agree with breeding more dogs when there is an glut of them at the shelter. I will not encourage or condone that by purchasing an animal.

I commend that. I also refuse to purchase a pet. However, I do respect that there are situations where purchasing an animal that fits your needs is a necessity. You wouldn't adopt a pitbull mix from a shelter, no matter how deserving the animal is, if you're looking for a sheepdog for your farm. I'm not sure you're going to find the dog that you're looking for at any shelter.

 

[LilyWDW]

I think it would be hard to find dogs that you can say for sure will 100% love being outside all of the time, and be great guard dogs. What will you do with them if they don't end up being great guard dogs? Or if they decide that they want to be in the house with your family?

It also sounds to me like you have made up your mind on what you are going to do, so I don't know why you posted.

I was going to post close to this. You won't know how the dog will take to being outside all the time. I have two yellow labs, they are actually half brother and sister. The female could sit out in the yard all day and night without a care. The male can't stand the thought of being away from my side more then 15 mins. They were raised the same way, in the same conditions. He is only 2 years younger then her.

What are you going to do if you have a dog that just DOESN'T want to be outside all the time?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Pea-as far as your last sentence...please read my post #12, first sentence!

Got it. Missed it, sorry. Still think it's your best bet.

Fur on dogs help against mosquitoes.

What I see with my dog when outside is they go right for the snout, or legs area where they can get their stingers right into the skin. I hate, hate, hate being bitten by mosquitos myself, and I feel sorry for any animal that's subjected to bites (by them, or anything else) continuously.

When I say "guard dogs" I don't mean vicious dogs, I mean dogs that will alert me to someone coming onto my property, and will hopefully deter anyone from considering it.

I guess that's my point. You don't mean viscious dogs, but that's often what you get when you leave them outside. Maybe you'll be ok if you really do work with them daily over the long haul and still make them part of your family even though they're kept outside.

I agree with whoever said you might wind up with dogs that aren't protective at all. And if you get breeds that are known to be protective, you're playing with dynamite. JMO.

Good luck.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Just had to respond to this with a . Man, Shepherds, eh? I would never own another breed, but they really make you think. Before adopting my two shepherds, I never thought that being a "fair, strong, and reliable alpha female" would be on my daily to-do list!

Absolutely!

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

LOL, Sarah...that is funny!

maxie-awww...why are you saying that? Yes, I am responding to people who do not think I should do it with my arguments why I think I *should*....but I agree when people make good points (like the barking, and whether they will be good gurard dogs or just want to hang out in the barn) and also I said that I appreciate opinions of those who think I should not.

So you think a big mixed breed dog should be euthanized rather than live in the set up I described? Really?

Sarah-I kind of regret making the "guard dog" thing a big part of the issue. I want dogs on the property to possibly deter a criminal, and to bark if someone comes onto the property. But I also want PETS that live a good life with food, shelter, vet care and LOVE. I don't need a certain breed...although I will admit to loving shepherds! A shepherd mix will do just fine.

Anyway, there is no need for me to purchase a specific breed.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I think it would be hard to find dogs that you can say for sure will 100% love being outside all of the time, and be great guard dogs. What will you do with them if they don't end up being great guard dogs? Or if they decide that they want to be in the house with your family?

Excellent questions.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

See...it is funny...I REFUSE to purchase a pet. I do not agree with breeding more dogs when there is an glut of them at the shelter. I will not encourage or condone that by purchasing an animal.

snarlingcoyote-yes, this was a rescue group. I know at the county
animal services (that is the link I posted) they pretty much ask no questions...which is also sad to me. I think there is a happy medium somewhere!

Yeppers. Gotta love me some of my fellow rescuers. Some of 'em do more harm than good, IMHO.

I don't share the hatred of breeders. Intentional breeders, even of the "backyard" variety aren't the lion's share of problems with overpopulation, to be honest. Although they're not the best of all circumstances, they're NOT the cause of killing in shelters, really. And if shelters/rescues/humane groups would COMPETE with them, they could be driven out of business. (It's. . .well, it's kinda' complicated, once you get into the logistics of it.) But anyway, yeah. I'm a wee bit passionate on the topic of No Kill and what does or does not work/help/hinder that movement.

But I reccomend rescues. . .you get really unique, lovely animals that need love and a home and in most places, you're saving a life!

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

I was going to post close to this. You won't know how the dog will take to being outside all the time. I have two yellow labs, they are actually half brother and sister. The female could sit out in the yard all day and night without a care. The male can't stand the thought of being away from my side more then 15 mins. They were raised the same way, in the same conditions. He is only 2 years younger then her.

What are you going to do if you have a dog that just DOESN'T want to be outside all the time?

but if that's all it know...and there is no other choice...how will it know any better?

Pea-ok, security system is great...but what about in my yard? The guy blocked my friend in (did you see that post?) and she could not back out. Again, I know dogs are not a cure all for crime, but I am thinking it could help!

I am just surprised you think that dogs outside=vicious.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

I think it would be hard to find dogs that you can say for sure will 100% love being outside all of the time, and be great guard dogs. What will you do with them if they don't end up being great guard dogs? Or if they decide that they want to be in the house with your family?

Well, at a well-run shelter/humane/rescue the staff would have taken the time to know which dogs like to alert the whole world to the appearance of a stranger and which dogs think the inside is totally "meh" and guide the OP to a pair of friendly dogs who will bark at the mailman, the garbage collector and strange people in their yard and who would prefer never having to darken the doorway of a house again.

They would steer OP away from dogs that want to be couch potatoes. That's just one of the things that a good humane/rescue/shelter DOES.

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

thank you, snarling...I will keep you updated.

 

[maxiesmom]

Well, at a well-run shelter/humane/rescue the staff would have taken the time to know which dogs like to alert the whole world to the appearance of a stranger and which dogs think the inside is totally "meh" and guide the OP to a pair of friendly dogs who will bark at the mailman, the garbage collector and strange people in their yard and who would prefer never having to darken the doorway of a house again.

They would steer OP away from dogs that want to be couch potatoes. That's just one of the things that a good humane/rescue/shelter DOES.

But they cannot guarantee anything when it comes to a dogs temperment. I would like to know what the OP would do if she gets dogs and they turn out not to be exactly how she wants them to be. It sounds to me like she wants the dogs to do a job, period. If they don't perform that job will the be exchanged, and will she keep exchanging them until she gets dogs that will do the job to her standard? I think if you adopt dogs you adopt them for life. And I hate to think what would happen if the OP got dogs just to do a job, and then didn't perform it to her liking.

 

[C.Ann]

There is only a risk of having "unsocialized dogs" if the owners don't pay any attention to them or not allow them to be around other dogs. Dogs that live indoors can become aggressive also.

There's a "risk" with any type of dog.. My dad's dogs were hunting dogs.. I've personally never known anyone to keep their hunting dogs in the house.. They were well cared for; loved; and trained to hunt for animals - not people.. However, they would certainly bark like crazy and let us know when someone came on the property..

C.Ann-But can I let them on my trampoline?

heehee, J/K...we are not getting a trampoline now, anyway. Just wanted to poke at ya a bit! Thanks for the opinion (on both threads!)

No - keep them off the trampoline!!!!!

LOL.. "Poke" away.. I enjoy the fact that just because we disagreed on one subject it doesn't necessarily mean we have to see each other as "evil" and snarl (no pun intended) at each other on different threads or subjects.... Different subject, different opinion!

We have an animal pet rescue group here that actually advertises "this is an outdoor dog", so I don't think all animal shelters have the attitude of the one you had the misfortune of dealing with..

Good luck with your decision.. (And don't try to sneak the trampoline in later..

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I am just surprised you think that dogs outside=vicious

That's a little too black and white for me.

I explained in my posts why dogs left outside to their own devices *often* learn to lead themselves and that can lead to behavior that's acceptable in the dog world, but not in the people world. I know you said you'll be out there with them, but it seems to me that even though you might spend some time with them, realistically, they'll be alone out there most of the time. Maybe I'm wrong, and if that's the case, great. Only you can truly know the answer to this. Just be honest with yourselves. For many unfortunate dogs, the novelty wears off pretty quickly, especially when unwanted behaviors start.

ok, security system is great...but what about in my yard? The guy blocked my friend in (did you see that post?) and she could not back out. Again, I know dogs are not a cure all for crime, but I am thinking it could help!

I didn't see that post. I'm not sure how having the dogs would help, would you explain? I am a big believer in having dogs as a deterrent to crime. Noise from dogs can make ill intentioned people go elsewhere. But this can be the case with any dog, even your little guy.

Truly not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to help you think it through. Whatever you decide is your business.