ethics of keeping a dog outside

[Scurvy]

I'm not going to touch the inside dog vs. outside dog debate except to say that I have known some very happy and well adjusted outdoor working dogs. They had a great deal of human interaction on a daily basis, though, and were trained to actually perform a task. Certainly some breeds are more suited to that kind of life than others are.

OP, I wanted to mention a couple of things that I didn't see as I was reading the thread. (I apologize if they were mentioned - I might well have missed them!) These are just things you should consider, if you haven't already. First, in regards to your current dog. You said she is afraid of other dogs, and that she does go outside to use the bathroom. I assume that your dog views your yard as her territory (I saw that you said a neighbor dog comes over occasionally but I assume they interact through the fence). If you get two outside dogs, they will consider the yard to be their territory since that is where they are going to be living. This could cause conflict between your little dog and the big dogs, and it might take quite a bit of work to get them socialized enough that the large dogs don't hurt the little dog. In addition, if your dog is a really nervous type, having these other dogs living in her territory might really increase her stress level, and could cause her to become a bit more jumpy or snappy than she has been.

Also, if you get a horse, are the dogs and horse going to be sharing the same enclosure? Some dogs do not get along with horses. I've known both horses and dogs to suffer serious injuries because the dogs were allowed free run of the paddock where the horses were kept. Some dogs and horses get along great - particularly when the dogs were raised around horses. Others will never get along no matter how hard you try to get them to. It would not be a good idea to just throw the dogs and a horse into the same area and assume that they will get along. You will need to spend quite a bit of time making sure that they can be trusted together before you leave them unattended. Do you have a plan in place for that transition period? What will you do if they are simply not compatible?

If the gate to the driveway will be opened while the dogs are out there, they could run out of your yard each time someone comes or goes. I see that you are intending to train them not to leave the yard. Do you have a plan for how to do that? It will not be easy - dogs can be very impulsive unless they are extremely well trained. Are you willing to chase them down any time that they do escape the yard?

If the dogs don't bark at strangers (and many dogs don't) will that be a problem? Conversely, if they bark at strangers all the time, will that be one? I know some outside dogs in my neighborhood watch everyone while wagging their tails and never utter a sound. Others bark at every leaf that blows by. It's possible to train the dogs to do what your want as far as barking (though it can be very involved), but you definitely can't assume that they'll bark when someone enters your property.

As others have mentioned, your area is very hot and humid. Even a fan system will not make that much of a dent in the summer heat. Some dogs would be fine outside in that weather, but others would not be. You should definitely do your research to find the breeds for whom that weather would be dangerous and avoid getting one of those breeds.

Finally, in regards to the size of your lot. I can't remember now (and I don't want to go back through the thread) if your lot is one acre or if you have one acre for the animals. Either way, I do think that's a nice size for a yard. It is not as large as any horse farms that I've had any experience with, though. My house sits on a lot that is between .75 and 1.0 acre. I can't imagine having enough room to add a pool, a barn, and still have room for a horse. You definitely won't have anywhere near enough room for the horse to graze on. I notice that part of the area you plan to use as a pasture isn't actually yours. Do you have a backup plan for the horse in case the city decides to make use of that area and you are no longer able to use it? I don't know if you have any background with horses, though I understand that there are people with horses around you. If you haven't previously owned or worked with horses, I urge you to seek out people who have more experience with them and have them evaluate your yard and barn to be sure that you have a good setup for a horse. They need more space than most people realize, and they also are quite a bit more work than most people assume.

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

stacy-once again you are lumping me in with people you must have dealt with. I posted this, post 66..


"That is why I am mulling all this over, instead of jumping into it. Any pet we get is a pet for life. I have ALWAYS been that way, which is why I do NOT have a ton of pets. It is a major commitment for me. As long as a dog does not bite, it will be here for life. Did you see where I said I regret focussing on the "guard" aspect? I don't want trained attack dogs...i want big dogs onsite..to be seen and heard."

But I guess I am lying? Or I am 40 years old and do not know myself at all?

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Why do you think so many animals are in shelters? People thinking pet ownership is no big deal and the animal will fit into whatever role the owner deems fit.

The problem isn't that dogs are in shelters. The problem is that most (around 70 to 90% in most places) dogs in shelters are killed.

That is answered in two ways: Programs that are better at getting dogs into the hands of owners (that successfully compete with pet stores and breeders) and better spay-and-neuter programs.

From the responses on this thread, I'm beginning to think that there are a third and a fourth obstacle: the anthropomorphization of dogs and cats and a belief that a dead animal is better than an animal in a less than perfect situation.

 

[Planogirl]

Our neighbors have a large dog that rarely goes out. They are gone a lot so we can hear a constant muffled barking coming from the house. That dog looks out the front window and seems to bark at everyone and everything almost continually until they come home.

Is this dog better off? I'm grateful that the dog isn't barking outside but if the point to keeping them inside is to get more human interaction I don't see how a situation like this works.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

I'll say it again: I grew up on a farm, and the HAPPIEST DOGS I've ever seen -- happier than my dog, and she has a pretty comfortable life (except that she has some serious aging issues, and I can't do a thing about that) -- are working farm dogs. Those dogs get genuine joy from herding things. Doesn't even matter what they herd. They'll herd one toddler.

Or ducks. I know people who've gotten their Border Collie ducks to herd. Fun to watch AND their BC was a happy, happy dog.

 

[Planogirl]

Or ducks. I know people who've gotten their Border Collie ducks to herd. Fun to watch AND their BC was a happy, happy dog.

When my aunt lived out in the woods, she kept finding abandoned cats. She had a shepherd mix who just delighted in herding those cats as long as they would tolerate it. One hiss and she would leave them alone.

She was a sweet dog. Whenever you drove up she would for some reason bring everyone a leaf.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

I wasn't.

I was asking the question of people who advocate No Kill At All Costs - to illustrate my point about rescue workers and dealing with tough cases nobody wants to think about, and to show that these issues aren't always black and white/cut and dry, like some would have you believe.

We don't advocate No Kill at All Costs. We just don't advocate killing 90% of the animals that come through shelters when it is a PROVEN FACT that this can be eliminated. At MOST, I'd say that 10% may need to be euthanized - not because they're not perfect, or the shelter is crowded, or they're scared or don't pass a test, but because they're just in that bad a shape.

And I'm sorry, but having two dogs in a pretty decent set up outside can't be compared to throwing your dog off a building.

Also, you'd be surprised what groups I work with. One group I work with has an all cat all inside policy. I've got no problems with that. If the people want barn cats, we send them to the TNR folks, who are happy to plump up their barns with feral kitties! If people want an indoor outdoor cat, we send them on to a sister organization that doesn't have our restrictions. In our region, our research suggests that if we can TNR 90% of the ferals and continue to ensure that all animals adopted by shelters/humane/rescue are spayed/neutered, we can completely eliminate the overpopulation problem in cats, so there's no point in changing our policies of indoor cats only, as the biggest problem isn't coming from that source. (Although, when we get all the ferals fixed, we'll be out of business - 95% of our kitties come from feral mommas!)

However, our sister dog organizations don't have the same requirements.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

She was a sweet dog. Whenever you drove up she would for some reason bring everyone a leaf.

I love that! I've known a few dogs like her. Sweet to the core!

 

[snarlingcoyote]

I don't want trained attack dogs...i want big dogs onsite..to be seen and heard."

DH calls our "spoiled mess" a 4-legged security system. He says it makes him feel better when he goes on business knowing that I'm perfectly safe in my own home. Of course, she's now a "senior" dog, and when she goes, it'll just be the BC. The only thing dangerous about the BC is her bark - it's so high pitched, it might pierce your eardrums.

 

[houstonbch]

I love dogs and dogs have been a part of my family since I was a small child and we got our first mutt who lived inside, but would go into our back yard when she wanted. After she passed away, my family adopted a golden retriever and black labrador from the pound (both outside dogs). This was when we lived in the country and those dogs would escape from our yard and attack the neighbors chickens so we had to find them a more suitable home. I later found a basset hound with puppies ready for a home and I brought home a new friend (also an indoor/outdoor dog).

Some dogs like to be outside, some like to be inside. It depends on the dog. Dogs that stay outside are not offended or depressed about not being indoors. I think when people attempt to humanize animals by trying to attach our emotions to them do a huge diservice to them. Leaving a dog in a kennel all day I find to be much harder on a dog (rarely do I see a dog excited about going into his cage).

To answer your question, there is nothing wrong with a dog living outdoors (assuming you provide them with shelter, proper fencing to keep them safely inside your yard, and fresh food and water). There are many breeds that would be excellent outdoor dogs and who will guard your property out of instinct - they will protect their family and territory. You can even find some very imposing dogs that will intimidate even the bravest of intruders, yet in reality are the sweetest most gentle dogs around. My basset hound was like that; she was short and gentle but had a deep bark and it was very intimidating to visitors to hear a deep bark, but would not see the dog since they were looking for a big dog and not my short little angel.

Getting a couple dogs is a great idea since they are pack animals. Best of luck and bless you for wanting to adopt a dog. So many animals deserve homes instead of cages

 

[manning]

Guard dogs are great.... a couple pounds of meat and they become ***** cats.

A security system....can be overcome but more difficult.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Guard dogs are great.... a couple pounds of meat and they become ***** cats.

You haven't met my GSD. Raw meat? Puh! She'd still be all over you with intent to dismember.

Pizza or a burger from McDough, however. . .she'd invite you in and tell you where we keep the good stuff.

Fortunately, most burglars would go with stereotype! Thank you Mythbusters!

 

[manning]

You haven't met my GSD. Raw meat? Puh! She'd still be all over you with intent to dismember.

Pizza or a burger from McDough, however. . .she'd invite you in and tell you where we keep the good stuff.

Fortunately, most burglars would go with stereotype! Thank you Mythbusters!

It's the side course you give in it. After a short nap he will regain his vigor.

 

[disneystacy]

stacy-once again you are lumping me in with people you must have dealt with. I posted this, post 66..


"That is why I am mulling all this over, instead of jumping into it. Any pet we get is a pet for life. I have ALWAYS been that way, which is why I do NOT have a ton of pets. It is a major commitment for me. As long as a dog does not bite, it will be here for life. Did you see where I said I regret focussing on the "guard" aspect? I don't want trained attack dogs...i want big dogs onsite..to be seen and heard."

But I guess I am lying? Or I am 40 years old and do not know myself at all?

Look, you are going to do what you are going to do, if you adopted 2 puppies of a working breed and had them professional trained to guard your home(they do not have to be trained to attack), I would have NO issue. I believe that you will take care of them (food, medical care, whatnot) BUT you are not talking about doing that. You are talking about going to the pound to "rescue" 2 dogs and you have a laundry list of behaviors both dogs need to possess to do what you need them to do.
Just the basics of not eating your CHi is a big one.
If it doesn't work out what are you going to do with them? I have asked you this over and over? It took weeks to find out certain behaviors with my shelter dog and months to overcome them (somewhat).
I understand you want big dogs to be seen and heard, but do your neighbors? A acre is not large enough to sheild neighbors from barking dogs.

I am only asking what any reputable dog rescue would ask, what is to become of the dogs if it doesn't work out?

 

[disneystacy]

The problem isn't that dogs are in shelters. The problem is that most (around 70 to 90% in most places) dogs in shelters are killed.

That is answered in two ways: Programs that are better at getting dogs into the hands of owners (that successfully compete with pet stores and breeders) and better spay-and-neuter programs.

From the responses on this thread, I'm beginning to think that there are a third and a fourth obstacle: the anthropomorphization of dogs and cats and a belief that a dead animal is better than an animal in a less than perfect situation.

Dogs in shelters are killed because of irresponsible pet owners. Period.
They have no clue what they are getting into and do not spay and neuter.
Tons of people think animals are disposible. If it doesn't work out we will just get rid of them. Animals are a lifetime commitment.
Rescue workers want the best home for these animals because they don't want to see them back in the shelters. They know the warning signs of people who will not be serious owners and that have unrealistic expectations.
In a perfect world everyone who buys and adopts a pet will keep the pet for its lifetime, but thats not the case, thus the reasons shelters are full.
Giving the dogs to every tom,dick and harry that wants one would not be a wise decision as even more dogs would be put to sleep, abused and neglected.
Like I have said before I WORKED for a rescue group and as a vet tech dealt with the local pounds. Not everyone who wants to adopt has bad intentions, they are always good at first, they just don't realize the responsiblily until its too late.

 

[BeachGirlFLA]

It's not the acre that isn't big enough for the dogs.......... it's a house, a barn, 2 horses, a swimming pool, etc. Just seems like a lot of stuff on a small lot. But hey, we live on .14 acres in the 'city' so I'm jealous.

I agree with the others that say it will be hard to find rescue dogs for this particular situation. Dogs that this is a "fit" for. Most dogs want to be with their people........ I have to DRIVE our weimaraner outside unless we go out with her. She is attached to us.

I have to do the same with the dog in my avatar but the other dog (a Weimeraner/Lab mix) would very happily spend all his time outside if we'd let him.