ethics of keeping a dog outside

[janey99]

Hmmm, I struggled with posting this, but here goes.

My overall impression is that you think you will pick 2 dogs from a rescue or shelter, know nothing about their background, but somehow they will happily live outside in your "barn," but be well socialized, guard your property by barking, but not actually physically bother people that come on your property. Maybe I'm biased by my many years of having bully-breed dogs, that require a great deal of managing, but it's difficult for me to see how this miracle of animal training will be accomplished with any type of realiability.

DH and I lived many years on an island known for its economic disparities and crime. If someone wants to rob your property and you have outside dogs, they will poison them or slit their throats and break into your property anyway - they already took care of your dogs outside, what do they have to be afraid of? Sounds terrible but it's true. Your best bet is getting a couple of good size family-loyal dogs for INSIDE your house where they will alert you if they hear somebody and you can respond accordingly. Burglars will not usually try to get into a house where the dogs are on the inside - too many unknowns.

Toad comment - we lived with them too. An outdoor dog that behaves the way you want it to is likely to have a high prey drive. How will you train it to stay away from toads, particularly if the dogs are unsupervised on your property a good deal of the time? A dog with a toad can go from fine to convulsing and choking in about 5 minutes. You only have a few minutes to get them to the vet. What happens if on of your outside dogs gets one at night when you're not there to see it?

It seems you will do this regardless of comments from strangers on a website, but I don't think your plan will work out the way you think. You talk about your "one acre property" like it's Walton farm, but I'm sitting on an acre and a half right now (with my dog on the couch next to me, incidentally), and it's nothing more than an average sized yard. You do not have a situation where farm dogs will be ranging happily on your back 40, snuggling in the barn with the cows and horses at night - you have a home where they will be likely hanging around the patio door, dying to come inside, getting into the garbage or running around on the driveway, where a legitimate visitor to your home is likely to run them over.

Jane

 

[disneystacy]

Hmmm, I struggled with posting this, but here goes.

My overall impression is that you think you will pick 2 dogs from a rescue or shelter, know nothing about their background, but somehow they will happily live outside in your "barn," but be well socialized, guard your property by barking, but not actually physically bother people that come on your property. Maybe I'm biased by my many years of having bully-breed dogs, that require a great deal of managing, but it's difficult for me to see how this miracle of animal training will be accomplished with any type of realiability.

DH and I lived many years on an island known for its economic disparities and crime. If someone wants to rob your property and you have outside dogs, they will poison them or slit their throats and break into your property anyway - they already took care of your dogs outside, what do they have to be afraid of? Sounds terrible but it's true. Your best bet is getting a couple of good size family-loyal dogs for INSIDE your house where they will alert you if they hear somebody and you can respond accordingly. Burglars will not usually try to get into a house where the dogs are on the inside - too many unknowns.

Toad comment - we lived with them too. An outdoor dog that behaves the way you want it to is likely to have a high prey drive. How will you train it to stay away from toads, particularly if the dogs are unsupervised on your property a good deal of the time? A dog with a toad can go from fine to convulsing and choking in about 5 minutes. You only have a few minutes to get them to the vet. What happens if on of your outside dogs gets one at night when you're not there to see it?

It seems you will do this regardless of comments from strangers on a website, but I don't think your plan will work out the way you think.

Jane

I agree 100%.

 

[janey99]

I agree 100%.

See my edit at the end, you'll probably agree even more!

Jane

 

[disneystacy]

See my edit at the end, you'll probably agree even more!

Jane

LOL, your right, I must have missed the part where she is only on a acre of property. I was thinking horse farm with acres. Again I agree with you 100% and I think if she does get someone to let her adopt 2 dogs, they will be right back where they came from in a weeks time.

 

[Planogirl]

She can always go to some of the pounds. They are often not so particular.

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

Hey guys! I am checking out of this thread, probably after this post. I want to thank everuone who posted, even those who i don't necessarily agree with. I made a point to say that before, and I am saying it again, since it seems like many posters don't read the whole thread.

jane-huh? You don't think dogs will bark when a stranger comes onto your property? What expectation are you talking about.

ok, so the toads...5 minutes? I have to babysit the dogs when they are outside? They can't be outside for more than 5 minutes at a time?

Pea-well, the novelty has not worn off on my small dog. Why would it wear off on my big dogs?

Sooo...when I get a horse or horses...will the mosquitoes bother them? Will they turn wild because they live outside? What if they (horses) decide they want to live inside with our family?

Yes, I will explain...my GF got held up in her driveway, with her baby in her arms. The guy blocked her in and accosted her. Would dogs have helped...maybe, maybe not. I would love to give some dogs a great home on the off chance that they might also help *me* in some instances. Barking may alert neighbors...or just the site of them may deter someone. Does that make sense, or would you like further explanation?

LOL C.Ann!

Hahah, maxie...I am an exchanger now...you now know this about me? WOW. I won't purchase a dog because I don't want to support the breeding industry, but somehow I am a dog exchanger...you really make up some crazy crap.

That is why I am mulling all this over, instead of jumping into it. Any pet we get is a pet for life. I have ALWAYS been that way, which is why I do NOT have a ton of pets. It is a major commitment for me. As long as a dog does not bite, it will be here for life. Did you see where I said I regret focussing on the "guard" aspect? I don't want trained attack dogs...i want big dogs onsite..to be seen and heard.

what if they want to decide to live in the house with our family? Hmmm...what if my DD decides she wants chocolate every night for dinner? What if my dog decides he doesn't want his nails trimmed?

anyway...thanks again to everyone. I may check in tomorrow.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Does that make sense, or would you like further explanation?

Never mind. I'm not sure why you're being sarcastic when I'm trying to help you. Signing off as well...

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

LOL, Stacey-read my comment to maxie, about my pet ownership history.

jane-Well, here in SoFla, an acre is a pretty big deal. And anyway, that is precisely my point..I do not have this huge lot of acreage that dogs are going to disappear, become wild, have no human contact. But I also want it known that I do not have the usual postage stamp sized yard that most people who live here do. It is not like the dog is going to have a small square of grass to exist on.

So...insulting my pride in my home and yard to make your point? You are a class act. Amazing that someone who has never met me, never seen my home or yard, knows all about my driveway/garbage/visitors.

 

[kinntj]

I guess I don't get how the dogs will help someone in the driveway if they are in a fenced area where they are suppose to be. Barking dogs aren't going to deter someone from the scenario which you are describing.

I don't think dogs are a great idea for what you want them for. I know you said that being with you is better than being in a shelter or killed. I hope you're getting the dogs because you want pets and not just for the reasons of barking and deterring criminals.

 

[disneystacy]

Hey guys! I am checking out of this thread, probably after this post. I want to thank everuone who posted, even those who i don't necessarily agree with. I made a point to say that before, and I am saying it again, since it seems like many posters don't read the whole thread.

jane-huh? You don't think dogs will bark when a stranger comes onto your property? What expectation are you talking about.

ok, so the toads...5 minutes? I have to babysit the dogs when they are outside? They can't be outside for more than 5 minutes at a time?

Pea-well, the novelty has not worn off on my small dog. Why would it wear off on my big dogs?

Sooo...when I get a horse or horses...will the mosquitoes bother them? Will they turn wild because they live outside? What if they (horses) decide they want to live inside with our family?

Yes, I will explain...my GF got held up in her driveway, with her baby in her arms. The guy blocked her in and accosted her. Would dogs have helped...maybe, maybe not. I would love to give some dogs a great home on the off chance that they might also help *me* in some instances. Barking may alert neighbors...or just the site of them may deter someone. Does that make sense, or would you like further explanation?

LOL C.Ann!

Hahah, maxie...I am an exchanger now...you now know this about me? WOW. I won't purchase a dog because I don't want to support the breeding industry, but somehow I am a dog exchanger...you really make up some crazy crap.

That is why I am mulling all this over, instead of jumping into it. Any pet we get is a pet for life. I have ALWAYS been that way, which is why I do NOT have a ton of pets. It is a major commitment for me. As long as a dog does not bite, it will be here for life. Did you see where I said I regret focussing on the "guard" aspect? I don't want trained attack dogs...i want big dogs onsite..to be seen and heard.

what if they want to decide to live in the house with our family? Hmmm...what if my DD decides she wants chocolate every night for dinner? What if my dog decides he doesn't want his nails trimmed?

anyway...thanks again to everyone. I may check in tomorrow.

How do you plan on keeping these dogs from leaving your property? How do you plan on protecting them from wild animals? How will you stop the dogs from barking from hours on end from bordom? How will you handle neighbor complaints? How do you plan on keeping other animals out of food dishes left outside?

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

*banging head against wall*

How many times do I have to repeat myself? I am not going to post "post numbers" anymore...but have you read the entire thread? Where I say that first and foremost I want pets, that may also bark when they see a stranger??? I have typed it multiple times.

My yard is totally fenced in, included the driveway. You don't think I would keep dogs penned up...do you? No way, that would be abusive!!!

Pea-I apologize...i should not have been snotty to you. I really did not know how else to explain it, so I was frustrated. Come back tomorrow!

 

[janey99]

jane-huh? You don't think dogs will bark when a stranger comes onto your property? What expectation are you talking about.

ok, so the toads...5 minutes? I have to babysit the dogs when they are outside? They can't be outside for more than 5 minutes at a time?

.

You miss my point. Someone who thinks there is something worth robbing on your property will dispatch your dogs without a second thought. They will case your habits, watch carefully for the easiest way to get to your dogs (because, you are clearly not talking about trained security dogs here who will ignore poisoned meat or behave in other predictable ways when a stranger threatens them), and subdue them, probably before they have a chance to bark. This is true even of yard dogs who bark their heads off all day long.

OK, so the toads, perhaps toads on our island are different, but yes, five minutes. They come out at dusk and are out all night til dawn, precisely when your "patrol dogs" will be unsupervised in your yard. They hop around. They are enticing. Your dogs are bored because they are yard dogs. They pounce and mouth. They get the toxin in their mouths. They mouth some more and the toxin spreads down their throats, where it causes increased saliva production which begins choking the dog, at the same time that it causes the dog to convulse. You have about 5 minutes the wrestle your siezing dog who is covered with slippery saliva and mud (yes, there is enough saliva to leave him in a puddle of mud) into the car and to the vets where they can treat it with charcoal lavage. I speak from experience. Yes, five minutes. About the time it takes to make your dawn cup of coffee and look out the kitchen window after you let the dog out to pee.

As I mentioned, you'll do what you want anyway. No need to get stroppy with all the people who don't agree with you.

Jane

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

How do you plan on keeping these dogs from leaving your property? How do you plan on protecting them from wild animals? How will you stop the dogs from barking from hours on end from bordom? How will you handle neighbor complaints? How do you plan on keeping other animals out of food dishes left outside?

ok, my last post was for kinntj.

Now I will ask YOU...did YOU read the entire thread?

who leaves food dishes outside? I feed my dog twice a day. Put the food down, pick it up when she is done.

What wild animals? I mean, this has already been covered on this thread...but go ahead...tell me what wild animals?

I also said earlier, in yet another post, that somone made a good point about incessant barking. I will absolutely need to make sure that is not an issue. That is why i would like dogs (PLURAL) from somewhere that the dogs' history is known.

How do people protect their horses from wild animals? What am I going to do with my mini horse...kepp her garaged? Keep her inside? Oh, no, cuz that would be cruel, right?

aaack...I really need to go to sleep, but this thread keeps sucking me in...the comments and questions are just too easy to answer, I cannot ignore them.

 

[disneystacy]

LOL, Stacey-read my comment to maxie, about my pet ownership history.

jane-Well, here in SoFla, an acre is a pretty big deal. And anyway, that is precisely my point..I do not have this huge lot of acreage that dogs are going to disappear, become wild, have no human contact. But I also want it known that I do not have the usual postage stamp sized yard that most people who live here do. It is not like the dog is going to have a small square of grass to exist on.

So...insulting my pride in my home and yard to make your point? You are a class act. Amazing that someone who has never met me, never seen my home or yard, knows all about my driveway/garbage/visitors.

Sorry, I don't need to read the history, I am a former vet tech and animal rescue worker and would never place a pet in your home in the scenerio you are describing. I can almost guarentee you will never find the happy win win you desire. Dogs that will be content to live outside, bark only when strangers approach, but not harm them in any way, never want to come in and not bark at your chihuahua through the doors day and night is a dream.

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

You miss my point. Someone who thinks there is something worth robbing on your property will dispatch your dogs without a second thought. They will case your habits, watch carefully for the easiest way to get to your dogs (because, you are clearly not talking about trained security dogs here who will ignore poisoned meat or behave in other predictable ways when a stranger threatens them), and subdue them, probably before they have a chance to bark. This is true even of yard dogs who bark their heads off all day long.

OK, so the toads, perhaps toads on our island are different, but yes, five minutes. They come out at dusk and are out all night til dawn, precisely when your "patrol dogs" will be unsupervised in your yard. They hop around. They are enticing. Your dogs are bored because they are yard dogs. They pounce and mouth. They get the toxin in their mouths. They mouth some more and the toxin spreads down their throats, where it causes increased saliva production which begins choking the dog, at the same time that it causes the dog to convulse. You have about 5 minutes the wrestle your siezing dog who is covered with slippery saliva and mud (yes, there is enough saliva to leave him in a puddle of mud) into the car and to the vets where they can treat it with charcoal lavage. I speak from experience. Yes, five minutes. About the time it takes to make your dawn cup of coffee and look out the kitchen window after you let the dog out to pee.

As I mentioned, you'll do what you want anyway. No need to get stroppy with all the people who don't agree with you.

Jane

Stroppy? Aren't you the one making fun of my yard? ahahaha, how dare I have only a measly acre. hahahaha....

So everyone here only lets there dog outside for 4.5 minutes? Suuuure....

I am a native south floridian ...I know all about Bufo toads, which is why I mentioned them...again, in a previous post that you must not have read.

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

BTW, Jane, no one will go to all that trouble to rob my pitiful little house, I assure you. It would be a lot easier to move onto the next pitiful little house.

 

[barneynshorty]

Here's a few things to think about that may help you make the best choice for your family.

Do you have a fence or other device to keep the dogs contained when outside? This would prevent them from running away, bothering neighbors, getting hit by cars, etc.

Will you have a means to put the dogs away when you have visitors/guests?

Is it possible for the dogs to be outside during the daytime, but inside at night? Possibly in a crate?

Can you buy one of those plastic kiddie pools for the dogs to get soaked in during the hot summers?

Can you feed the dogs inside somewhere? It really would help to control pests outside.

Hope these questions help you out and are asked with the best of intentions.

 

[Hillbeans]

Where my DH is from (Central/western PA) bigger dogs seem to be outside more and many do live outside, or in kennels/barns. It seemed to be the exception where dogs were inside more than they were outside.

I don't have a problem with dogs being outside, in fact ours loves being outside, but she enjoys being inside too. I do let her out most nice days during the day while i'm at work and she sleeps inside most nights, except for a few nights this past summer when she wanted to stay outside. She has a nice large kennel with an Igloo, grass to do her business, and we give her plenty of fresh water.

 

[quentina]

I would never have an outside pet. I feel that it is to easy to forget about them as they are out of sight.

This is just my opinion. I feel that dogs are part of the family and need to be part of the family in the home.

Won't your little dog bark if someone comes around? I have a chiuahua and a golden retriever. They both bark if anything unusual happens

 

[wildernesslodgelover]

Thank you hillbeans.

barney-not saying this in a snotty way...but have you read the whole thread? They will have access to a swimming pool (inground pool...oh, I better not brag, jane will not like that!) and a barn that has a fan system (not just fans set up, a cooling system that is just shy of A/C, IMHO.

Yes, we can put the dogs away when we have guests...but I truly want dogs that can just hang out with everyone...I have never been a fan of putting an animal away just because it bothers someone...unless we have a small child visiting that is scared.

Having them outside at night time is the most important part to me. But they will still have access to the barn/pool/covered patio.

Are entire property is fenced, with that fencing that goes into the ground...you know what I mean? I don't know the exact name. The rolling gate will stay closed unless people are entering or exiting. the dogs will indeed need to be trained to stay in when the gates open and close. Obviously this is something we have already considered.

Thanks.