DVCNews November Direct Sales

[Genie+]

I am not real sure what has made the dues what they are

I think the dues are the result of low average points per night for what nearly amounts to 2 units and occupancy 6. That’s alot of cost to be distributed on the small 21pt/nt average.

Housekeeping has a larger area to clean than a studio, plus can’t just walk down a hall. They are carting stuff outside unit to unit. Same thing for maintenance, there’s more to maintain and sprawling nature decreases efficiency. Occupancy 6 has more to chip in more for pools, transpo, etc.

Look at the low dues cost of Poly and VGF - both currently under $8pp. But they also have a higher than average points per night per unit size, and that helps distribute the cost over more points. Lower impact.

 

[tx911]

Exactly.

Best time time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. Second best time is today. Might not apply to DVC but I am going to apply it anyway.

Unless you were buying 100 points at Riviera on December 12th, at which time the best time to buy was yesterday

 

[DVCsloth]

I tend to think Disney has overcomplicated the system, not just DVC but Disney in general. I buy where I want to stay so home resort priority is very important to me. Disney transportation is also important. I think all of the DVC resorts have pros and cons for park access unless Epcot and HS are the most important park for you. I already have my required number eligible points for membership extras and I'm eligible for FR season pass. As far as buying anything direct, that is very doubtful for me. I'm ok with trying my luck at 7 months if I want to try any of the resorts. I always book our trip at 11 months and sometimes check right at 7 months to see what's available. So, I suspect that Disney may have shut out quite a bit of current owners that would buy direct but won't even consider it anymore. If I were a brand-new buyer, I would buy enough points direct to be eligible membership extras at a newer resort after some decent research.

 

[tidefan]

I think the dues are the result of low average points per night for what nearly amounts to 2 units and occupancy 6. That’s alot of cost to be distributed on the small 21pt/nt average.

Housekeeping has a larger area to clean than a studio, plus can’t just walk down a hall. They are carting stuff outside unit to unit. Same thing for maintenance, there’s more to maintain and sprawling nature decreases efficiency. Occupancy 6 has more to chip in more for pools, transpo, etc.

Look at the low dues cost of Poly and VGF - both currently under $8pp. But they also have a higher than average points per night per unit size, and that helps distribute the cost over more points. Lower impact.

That may be part of it, however, size wise, the Cabins aren’t much bigger than PVB Longhouse Studios. Part of it probably is though that the only reason housekeeping is there is due to the Cabins (there is no need at the campsites, other than the comfort stations). I was wondering if the structures aren’t 50 years structures and there is a larger reserve charge?

 

[Genie+]

That may be part of it, however, size wise, the Cabins aren’t much bigger than PVB Longhouse Studios. Part of it probably is though that the only reason housekeeping is there is due to the Cabins (there is no need at the campsites, other than the comfort stations). I was wondering if the structures aren’t 50 years structures and there is a larger reserve charge?

It’s kinda looks like a 1-2 punch though… lower average points per night per unit already increases distribution of costs, and then if any of those costs are also higher than typical (like for a more sprawling layout), it’s a compounded affect. Capital Reserves is also pretty large gap too, so yeah that looks to be a part of it too.

Poly
Operating Expenses $5.15 (housekeeping $1.60; transpo $.62)
Capital Reserves $1.06

VGF
Operating Expenses $5.18 (housekeeping $1.60; transpo $.64)
Capital Reserves $.93

Vs

Cabins at the Fort:
Operating Expenses $8.45 (housekeeping $2.67; transpo $1.73)
Capital Reserves $1.66

OKW
Operating Expenses $7.22 (housekeeping $2.30; transpo $1.28)
Capital Reserves $2.07

The first 2 have higher than average points per night, the second 2 are lower than average.

The first 2 have interior hallways, the second 2 do not. Housekeeping can’t just push a cart down the hall. At OKW they have to enter every unit from outside, and have to bring supplies up and down the outside stairs for all the second floor units.

https://www.dvcfieldguide.com/2025-annual-dues-details

 

[tidefan]

Hmmm. It's not just Housekeeping that is a good percentage higher either. Transportation dues (I guess the interior buses?) jump out, but so does Administration and Front Desk ($1.1766 vs. .6957) and Insurance (.38 vs .21), though the insurance cost makes some sense.

The problem here is that they were going to have an issue either way. Either keep the point chart respectable and have high dues, or keep the dues respectable and have high point charts. The former is the way they went, I would suspect that if they went with the latter, not only would you still not have people buying in (as the costs would be the same as since dues x points = total cost, you'd still be paying the same total cost, for instance, 100 points at $12 pp for $1,200 in MF or make them cost 150 points at $8.00 pp for the same $1,200 in MF)

So, there's the dilemma, make people buy 100 points and have outrageous dues, or keep the dues down and have outrageous point costs. This doesn't even take into account the aspect that restrictions here are probably hurting this property (as a niche property) more than others as well as the ambiguity of the trust aspects of the POS may keep people from pulling the trigger as well.

I think that they were going to have sales issues either way they went on this one, however, with the path they took, at least while the Cabins are a sales nightmare, from a 7-month booking standpoint, they are extremely popular with existing members (and, looking at the fact that breakage income credit is higher at CFW, they are also doing well renting these for cash). Also, remember that in the POS, they specifically outline the right to rebalance points among the trust, so if they added Lakeshore Lodge to the trust, not only could they add in the existing CFW cabins, they can rebalance the points among the cabins and the Lodge units as they see fit according to the Trust POS. Too much uncertainty, I think for many people.

In the end, I think that what you're seeing mostly with CFW is Fixed Week sales in uber-popular weeks around Halloween, 4th of July, and perhaps Christmas/New Year's. These are typically times where they close the Fort down to external traffic. Also, the Fixed Week, I suppose, would insulate you from any shenanigans they could pull by rebalancing the point chart.

It's too bad, because we would actually love to have points at the Fort, but we already have 700 direct points, and we are flexible enough in when we go that it just makes way more sense to take our chances at the 7 month window than to purchase direct.

 

[The Jackal]

VDH sales are pretty low. SSR sold around 50% of what VDH sold. Hmmmm DVC. I think you messed something up at VDH.

 

[AstroBlasters]

VDH sales are pretty low. SSR sold around 50% of what VDH sold. Hmmmm DVC. I think you messed something up at VDH.

It’s just a different market than WDW because of % of park goers who are locals & good neighbor hotels like Westin, JW Marriott, Marriott Theme Park, etc that are close.

They also went aggressive on the ppp, the point chart, and the resale restrictions given what they knew the dues and TOT were going to be.

 

[maui22]

Here is what I have for December PVB sales data.
376 deed, 61,246 points.

As you can see 12/2 total was high because the county was off from Thanksgiving through the end of the month. Rest of the month has been slower.

12/2	117 deeds/ 19,018 points	FW 39 Studio SV FW 49 Studio SV
12/3	25 / 3600
12/4	23 / 3061
12/5	2 / 225
12/6	20 / 2925
12/9	41 / 7940
12/10	20 / 3400
12/11	8 / 1211
12/12	11 / 1950
12/13	13 / 2025
12/16	29 / 4216	FW 51 Studio SV
12/17	20 / 3060
12/18	5 / 1250
12/19	13 / 2035
12/20	9 / 1750
12/23	21 / 3600

 

[maui22]

Some other fun tidbits. Delayed closings do factor into when deeds are showing up. So take the following with salt, lime, and tequila.

Really need to wait 4 months (basing it on what our tour guide would allow 45 days delay for first payment, then two more payments 30 days apart). Thats 75 days, plus Disney and county delays, meaning a contract could in October may not show up until January.

Palm tree dates:

• 1066 deed have October palm tree dates
• 405 deeds have November dates
• 51 so far have December dates
• 2 we’re missing palm tree dates, but one would definitely be October and the other would be either October or November but I can’t say for certain.

 

[maui22]

Use year breakdown for PVB points since October.

• Feb - 200 deeds 30,454 points
• Mar - 113 deeds 16,402 points
• Apr - 145 deeds 19,421 points
• Jun - 388 deeds 66,521 points
• Aug - 131 deeds 18,662 points
• Sep - 119 deeds 17,343 points
• Oct - 155 deeds 20,303 points
• Dec - 273 deeds 35,413 points

 

[maui22]

NOTE: fixed a mistake I had in the December 31 data (now that county proofed their records). Total is reduced by 10 points. Data below reflects my correction.

Slight drop in totals for December, despite Thanksgiving holiday resulting in several days of deeds showing up December 2.

520 deeds with 83,366 points.

December 31 county deeds were the first ones with a palm tree date of 12/17/24 or later. 12/17/24 was the opening day (packed resort with lots of tours that week).

12/2	117 deeds/ 19,018 points	FW 39 Studio SV FW 49 Studio SV
12/3	25 / 3600
12/4	23 / 3061
12/5	2 / 225
12/6	20 / 2925
12/9	41 / 7940
12/10	20 / 3400
12/11	8 / 1211
12/12	11 / 1950
12/13	13 / 2025
12/16	29 / 4216	FW 51 Studio SV
12/17	20 / 3060
12/18	5 / 1250
12/19	13 / 2035
12/20	9 / 1750
12/23	21 / 3600
12/26	42 / 6926
12/27	26 / 3820
12/30	26 / 3809	FW 36 Studio SV
12/31	50 / 7565

Quick note: in the deeds on 1/2, there are two FW 43 1BR TPV deeds. Because of how few are declared, these may be the only two allowed for this week until future declarations. The palm tree dates were 11/28 and 12/1. They were purchased by the same family. (Same base contract number, but the extensions were .009 and .010).

7 of the 19 deeds that showed up on 1/2 county data have palm tree dates of 10/3-10/8. Just another example of why judging sales data from the county data for a single month isn't accurate. If you want to judge sales for a period, you really need to track the palm tree dates (and need to wait until 4 months after the month ends).

Here's data based on palm tree dates (so far, data for October shouldn't be judged until possibly the end of February because 45-day delay for first payment, thirty days for second payment, additional 30 days for third payment, then there is roughly 10-17 days between Disney finishing and county recording the deed).

• October showing 1087 deeds with 151,321 points.
• November 446 deeds with 74,929 points.
• December 153 deeds with 23,736 points.
• Two deeds have no palm tree date.
  • One was 150 points and should be added to the October information because it was recorded by the county in October (only month Island Tower sales were active).
  • Other may have been October or November. It was only 50 points, so it wouldn't change the data much.

Overall, I do think sales are slowing. October was the rush to buy. Lag until resort opens. Purely a guess based on our experience, I think Island Tower sales may pickup now that the resort was open. They were overbooking actual tours via the Poly GCH during the first week. People we heard talking were definitely in love with this resort.

I didn't track Riviera sales, but I think they December data may come close to PVB. Seemed like the number of contracts was a lot closer in December than October-December. Riviera's data did include some September palm tree dates (not sure if it was just a few or not because I didn't track these only glanced occassionally).

We were at Riviera 13th-15th (guides were giving tours), moved to PVB longhouse 15th-17th (guides were not busy), Island Tower (17th-20th) and they were overbooking tours. New products drawing interest, which has happened at every resort except CFW.

The timing of the current incentives expiring seems to match when the Island Tower initial hype is likely to die off. Then it's back to reality of five active resorts for sale (Aulani, Riviera, VDH, CFW, and PVB). Which resort(s) will Disney decide need incentives to meet Disney's internal goals?

 

[maui22]

I fixed a mistake in my December 31 data. I had one deed with 10 more points than it actually had. Post above reflects the correction.

Interesting seeing the January deeds data.

Someone bought two 650 point contracts (Palm Tree date of 12/18, which was the day after Island Tower opened). Guessing that means someone was very happy with the resort after seeing it (possibly spending a night there).

In the January data, 1/2-1/7, I believe 36 of the 122 deeds have a palm tree date from October. That's 29.5%, so delayed closings are a big part of monthly deeds data (at least at PVB Island Tower).

 

[BrianLo]

In the January data, 1/2-1/7, I believe 36 of the 122 deeds have a palm tree date from October. That's 29.5%, so delayed closings are a big part of monthly deeds data (at least at PVB Island Tower).

I imagine that will go away after we pass the member sales window. We saw a lot of VDH “normalize”, contracts getting bigger, less splitting that @ehh tracks.

 

[maui22]

Disney has updated the wording on the FW contracts. I see they are now officially using "Resort View" as opposed to the "Standard View" wording.

It's going to take some time for this old dog to get used to.

 

[Genie+]

Disney has updated the wording on the FW contracts. I see they are now officially using "Resort View" as opposed to the "Standard View" wording.

It's going to take some time for this old dog to get used to.

Across DVC and cash they changed view/booking categories. Resort has replaced Standard across the board. Preferred has replaced things like Lake or Water, etc.

Honestly I don’t like it.

 

[DougEMG]

Across DVC and cash they changed view/booking categories. Resort has replaced Standard across the board. Preferred has replaced things like Lake or Water, etc.

Honestly I don’t like it.

I don't like it either. I think it is a way to stop complaints (and rate rooms high than they should be) on views that don't match what they were rated at. Much harder to complain about "Preferred" as that doesn't mean anything compare to "Lake".

 

[Mai Ku Tiki]

PIT TPV can be very disappointing to owners willing to pay the points for it AND Longhouse Moorea LAKE View is no longer guaranteed?

 

[MarkNC2Disney]

I don't like it either. I think it is a way to stop complaints (and rate rooms high than they should be) on views that don't match what they were rated at. Much harder to complain about "Preferred" as that doesn't mean anything compare to "Lake".

Yup, don’t like it at all. I want the opposite - I wish it were an option to pay more for 3rd floor Moorea, etc.

Easy solution for me though — I don’t need as many points because I’ll stay at the bottom tier view and not play Disney’s little game of Hokey Pokey.