DVC point balancing 2022 vs 2021

[mdembko]

Do either of you now have a date for your rescheduled call?
The April 11th date cited by @drusba is rapidly approaching.

Not yet. If I do not hear by the middle of next week, I will call back to get an update.

 

[ford91exploder]

[Cue the counterpoint.]

I’m not disagreeing with this for your benefit, but rather to share with the rest of the community on this thread as to why I’m not okay with this. So please feel free to ignore... and don’t think of a pink elephant.

The only things we can rely on when we enter into any financial arrangement with another party are the terms of that agreement as it has been spelled out in the language used in said agreement. The language clearly states in the POS and again in the Product Understanding Checklist that no points may be raised in use day without that increase being offset elsewhere. It was a concept repeatedly sold by guides and even made its way into marketing materials as a big safety selling point. What it costs for you to travel today will be the same as it will be in 50 years (with the usual caveats). I understand the marketing material is not legally binding, but they do serve to demonstrate the intent on the part of developer to lock owners into a particular cost over the life of the contract.

The problem with any member being okay with the POS, or Product Understanding Checklist being violated, however noble the the asserted intention is, is that it sends the message that Disney does not need to respect the language it laid out to each owner when that owner bought into Disney’s timeshare.

The terms of the contract should not flex based on what any one owner’s comfort level is. Owner A may be comfortable losing an entire year’s worth of points because they trust Disney. Owner B may only be willing to lose 2.3% of a year’s worth of points. While owner C may have a 0% tolerance. While every owner has a right to their opinion, the minimization of Owner C’s assertion of their rights protected by the contract should not be undermined or downplayed. The language in our contracts are the only things we have a right to.

I rail against the resale restrictions because I’m of the opinion that it’s an egregious, anti-owner move by Disney to line their pockets at whatever cost to the ownership, but I will never argue the legalities of it as it clearly states in the contract that monetary value retention is not a reason to buy into Disney.

I also don’t pin the viability of ownership on my ability to rent my points out or trade into the BVTC with my SSR points for the same reasons. I have zero expectations that DME will get my family to the parks, or that APs will be available for me to “save money” on my trips. I enjoy all of those things today, but know they are not protected ownership rights. It’s in the contract I signed and agreed to.

So when Disney violates one of the few protections I do have in the contract that I signed, I’m of the opinion that every owner should care. If they don’t, that’s fine, but it’s a disservice to the ownership as a whole to be comfortable with Disney violating a little bit here or there, because before too long we’re all just a big pot of frogs in a really warm bath that is just slightly less comfortable than the year before.

I'm one of the (former) owners who was ok with giving Disney a little wiggle room but in under 5 years since my last add on the relationship became downright abusive and I finally said ENOUGH and sold, Before 2015 DVC was simply amazing and there were never any major issues.

Post 2017 as things kept getting worse while getting much more expensive I really wanted to just walk away and make a statement but eventually realized that the machine just would not care. So I sold my interest which was a very sad day for us as we truly loved our Disney visits but we could no longer overlook the issues which began to fester in 2015 and became unbearable in 2018.

When I say issues it was things like non-functioning major appliances or plumbing or HVAC not working, Sure in the many years we had one or two instances but they were always fixed with a smile so no biggie. After 2015 - check into a 2BR - refrigerator DOA call desk please fix asap I have garden grocer order coming. No technician groceries arrive they need to be kept by Bell services, I park myself in lobby and tell family to go on without me I ended up sitting in that lobby 8 hours until the refrigerator finally got fixed. As you can imagine I was NOT a happy camper.

And no no one gave us free FP's or any other sort of compensation nor did we ask. Buy why in finagle was that dead refrigerator not caught by QA when they went through the room and pronounced it ready for checkin and why did Disney play the passive aggressive game they knew I had a food order waiting and I might even want to eat some of it but no. I had some fig bars stashed in my pack along with water so my dinner that day was some fig newtons and water. But after 2015 something major broken became a regular theme, Look I dont want 'free' FP's or swag all I want is for everything in the room I paid for to work is all and being a business traveller I'm accustomed to things like this being fixed quickly unless it's something like one time I was out in Chicago and the hotel's satellite antenna got blown over. Well that's not gonna get fixed in a hurry but its mother nature so what can you do except smile and read a book

 

[Tiggerette]

A FYI that the most recent DVC podcast created by the DIS on the topic of Difficult Policies of the DVC includes a quick reference about this issue. It was brought forward by the sponsor, World of DVC, in a delicate way. I found it the most well-informed, concise statement about these concerns on a video publication by the DIS.

I applaud World of DVC for speaking to concerns about point totals required and point reallocation for each resort. It's only about 10-15 seconds long, but that mention means a lot to me as an owner. I felt like, finally, others who are in the business of DVC ownership are raising these topics of concern instead of brushing it under the 'they couldn't do that, so they must not be doing it' rug," which was the viewpoint in prior podcasts.

I thought others who have been participating in this thread would want to hear the podcast for themselves. Cheers!

 

[Red Dog Run]

Just want to say: I have no freaking idea what most of what is being said means. LOL! Where is the thread for "Dummies," ugg, "Newbies" Gonna have to pay attention to this jargon.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Just want to say: I have no freaking idea what most of what is being said means. LOL! Where is the thread for "Dummies," ugg, "Newbies" Gonna have to pay attention to this jargon.

Basically you have (for example- not real numbers), 1 million points per year for a resort. Like each and every stay for every night adds up to1 million per year. Why? Because they sold one million points. And everyone gets an allotment every year. Dvc is now acting like there are 1.2 million points and every night in every different kind of room costs a bit more- but only at certain times of year. The have literally made up points they never sold. It is like the government just manufacturing money. Your money is instantly worth less. So now, your points are worth less. It is minuscule, but it is significant because it is illegal as per the dvc contract and because they could start compounding it. You used to be able to book 7 days in a studio at thanksgiving with your points. Now you can only book 6.

 

[Red Dog Run]

Basically you have (for example- not real numbers), 1 million points per year for a resort. Like each and every stay for every night adds up to1 million per year. Why? Because they sold one million points. And everyone gets an allotment every year. Dvc is now acting like there are 1.2 million points and every night in every different kind of room costs a bit more- but only at certain times of year. The have literally made up points they never sold. It is like the government just manufacturing money. Your money is instantly worth less. So now, your points are worth less. It is minuscule, but it is significant because it is illegal as per the dvc contract and because they could start compounding it. You used to be able to book 7 days in a studio at thanksgiving with your points. Now you can only book 6.

Thank you for your explanation. You made it very easy to understand. This is sad. Seems like everything has to be second-guessed and fact checked now. The reputation is what drove me to purchase. I don't think they need to tarnish it.

 

[JOLT]

Basically you have (for example- not real numbers), 1 million points per year for a resort. Like each and every stay for every night adds up to1 million per year. Why? Because they sold one million points. And everyone gets an allotment every year. Dvc is now acting like there are 1.2 million points and every night in every different kind of room costs a bit more- but only at certain times of year. The have literally made up points they never sold. It is like the government just manufacturing money. Your money is instantly worth less. So now, your points are worth less. It is minuscule, but it is significant because it is illegal as per the dvc contract and because they could start compounding it. You used to be able to book 7 days in a studio at thanksgiving with your points. Now you can only book 6.

Its more like 1million and now there are 1.06million this year. there isnt a year it will be 20% increase.

DVC split the days Easter can fall on into 2 seasons. Since they can never have a year cost less points that what they sold they had to pick the date that used the least amount of points as their "base" calendar. This means when Easter falls on a cheaper season the total points for that year will increase because Easter week is a premium week that cost the most points. When Easter falls on a more expensive season that it will fall back closer to the total points sold.

While this is not technically illegal this does question if DVC made the season's in the best interest of the members.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

Its more like 1million and now there are 1.06million this year. there isnt a year it will be 20% increase.

DVC split the days Easter can fall on into 2 seasons. Since they can never have a year cost less points that what they sold they had to pick the date that used the least amount of points as their "base" calendar. This means when Easter falls on a cheaper season the total points for that year will increase because Easter week is a premium week that cost the most points. When Easter falls on a more expensive season that it will fall back closer to the total points sold.

While this is not technically illegal this does question if DVC made the season's in the best interest of the members.

Yes it is illegal. They are allowed to move points around, but they are not allowed to create more points. Period.

 

[JOLT]

Yes it is illegal. They are allowed to move points around, but they are not allowed to create more points. Period.

There has been point fluctuations for all of dvcs life based on holidays and weekends. Its now inflated more because of easter.

They didn't "raise points" its all based on where the easter week premium lands.

Could they switch back to 5 seasons? Yes. Could they readjust the seasons every year based on easter? Probably. Does mid to late April have less demand than March so it makes sense to put it in a different season? Yes.

I called and voiced my concerns and feel they were taken with a grain of salt. I personally don't belive what they did is 100% in the best interest of its members. I also think there is a lot of behind the scenes legal things we do not know about with what dvc can and can't do based on timeshare law.

 

[New Mouse]

There has been point fluctuations for all of dvcs life based on holidays and weekends. Its now inflated more because of easter.

They didn't "raise points" its all based on where the easter week premium lands.

Could they switch back to 5 seasons? Yes. Could they readjust the seasons every year based on easter? Probably. Does mid to late April have less demand than March so it makes sense to put it in a different season? Yes.

I called and voiced my concerns and feel they were taken with a grain of salt. I personally don't belive what they did is 100% in the best interest of its members. I also think there is a lot of behind the scenes legal things we do not know about with what dvc can and can't do based on timeshare law.

No, it was illegal plain and simple. There is 0 they can do behind the scenes that we dont know about, which is why we have a contractual agreement that spells out what can and cannot be done.

What they did cannot be done. Seasons have 0 to with the actual issue, they are just what dvc is using to justify their actions. There are 364/5 days which need a point value assigned to them. The seasons just provide an easy point of reference, but at the end of the day, one night can be 1 point and another within the same season can be 50. If the 1 point night were raised to 2, that means that 50 point night would have to go to 49 within that season or in a different season.

It is that simple, they just dont want us to think it is anymore.

I say "anymore" because even if the contract were somehow in their favor, they have spent 30 plus years heavily advertising the exact concept above. At that point their marketing methods would take precedent over any technicality in the contract.

 

[Gf77]

ㅤ

 

[Sandisw]

You are using these terms “premium weeks” and “seasons” as if they are real things and not things made up by Disney. Then you’re saying that justifies why they have to raise the points, but only on years these “premium weeks” fall between “seasons”. My understanding is they can’t ever raise total points for any reason whatsoever. Am I wrong? If I am, I apologize and the debate rages on.

They can not raise total points sold ever. They based that on seasons and a calendar that included only 365 days and the least number of Friday/Saturday’s in the high demand time to come up with that total.

Any calendar year that moves Easter to a different week or we have a leap year or more weekend days will give the chart more total points.

The debate about its legality is whether the change to 7 season, the fluctuations of Easter between 3 seasons now, instead of 2...which is impacting the larger fluctuations than previous years..there has always been some.. is allowed.

According to DVC management, the chart for 2023 will not be adjusted other than for Easter changes and weekend differences and based on that it should come back down to a normal level of fluctuation.

 

[mlayman7]

I did just watch the most recent DVC show and was curious when it was mentioned where this would lead. You can tell that they, World of DVC, knew this was a bigger issue than most members understand. Unfortunately, like this thread has shown, if you spend the time to look at the contracts and are able to understand them, it has taken me much longer than the average person would, then you can clearly tell that what they did in no way can help members, in no way follows that contract where they cannot create new seasons. They cannot add more points onto a yearly point chart. They tried doing this years ago and backed off and reverted those point charts to original ones because they were met with resistance. This time everything was hidden underneath season changes and done with so many other issues going on (pandemic, no communication with what to do with expiring points, closures, etc) that it has been mostly overlooked. I understand this is a small change but everyone who owns DVC, your percentage of ownership that you bought is not less. That 0.0045% interest in BWV you own is now probably worth 0.00448% (percentages are arbitrary). To some, no big deal, but what they tried to do years ago, that percentage would have been 0.0040% and despite what DVC management is trying to say to get you to conform, if they can get away with this, why wouldn't they do it again.. This only benefits DVC, no way reducing your DVC ownership interest can benefit any owner. This could be an entire episode on the show but it would be very clearly difficult to understand because not many owners/potential owners have read this entire thread or are interested in all these numbers or legalese speak. Hopefully them mentioning this will spark some new discussion regarding everything.

 

[Gf77]

ㅤ

 

[Gf77]

ㅤ

 

[ford91exploder]

Perfect explanation, I understand there is more nuance to it than I originally thought. So it’s more of a “we put an inch in the contract and we’re now taking a mile” instead of being so black and white. Thank you.

No there was no inch in the contract the number of points at a resort are a fixed immutable number.

However with the ‘seasons’ points have been inflating by about 0.2 % per year these are points that Disney has created out of thin air which make your points worth that much less every year.

the way it was supposed to work was yea a studio at Christmas or Thanksgiving could cost say 40 points but that same studio was say 15 points in the middle of January or end of August
But the number of points to rent the studio for an entire year was a fixed immutable number. Except for leap years where there was one extra day but even thats easy because you base calculations on the fact that a ‘normal’ year is 364.75 days long. or you write the contract so Disney gets an extra day every leap year.



Eventually some big law firm shark dept is going to smell blood in the water and DVC is gonna have a huge class action that I suspect they will lose, Or they will settle for some huge amount because they will not want to undergo discovery.

of course the members are gonna have to pay for defending the indefensible....

 

[Bing Showei]

Any calendar year that moves Easter to a different week or we have a leap year or more weekend days will give the chart more total points.

Taking the position that the increase we are seeing is simply a move in the Easter week is akin to insisting that pushing someone off the train platform didn’t kill them, it was the oncoming Downtown Express train that killed them.

Disney manufactured a system by which "seasonal shifts" no longer reflect what was intended and identified when the developers sold the resort. We're not talking about more weekends because of Easter or leap days. Such a comparison needs to cease as it attempts to redefine the original intent of the contract language when the developers sold the underlying points on.

Let's assume, as you have accepted and perpetuated on these boards the legality of over and over again on previous posts, that Disney can create new seasons, if such a change materially changes the total number of points required to book the resort in a given year, then it violates the one-to-one use right to use night ratio. It's pretty straightforward, and in violation of Florida timeshare law.

Let's be clear, the seasonal change in Easter did not affect the influx of point, Disney's manufactured seasons and the behavior of resort days surrounding Easter is what is causing the increase in points and devaluation of ownership.

For 30 years, we did not see this sort of shift. Why is this change suddenly ok?

When Disney finally addresses the issues around the point inflation in the 2022 point charts later this year, the membership needs to be cognizant of how Disney chooses to frame the narrative.

In 2019, the point charts were completely legal. The charts were within Management’s fiduciary obligation to address demand. The changes were supported by proprietary data that conveniently, members were not privy to. The issue was not a hyper-inflated lock-off premium that betrayed the responsibilities of a fiduciary, nor was it an issue that the changes defied what every owner recognized to be in direct contradiction with the real-world demand surrounding 1BRs; instead, it was simply a PR failure on Disney’s part to appropriately “message” the point chart changes which caused undue “confusion” among the membership.

This year will be no different. Previous posters have outlined how management has already laid down the groundwork:

Disney is just adjusting for demand; the deviation in points is the equivalent of a rounding error; the changes are simply due to holiday fluctuations which naturally occur in any given calendar year.

All of this reasoning/justification will mirror 2019, and like in 2019, it tells an incomplete story and distorts what actually transpired.

Finally, the point can not be emphasized enough that as members, we have a responsibility to monitor these things and hold Disney accountable to the agreement we entered into when we bought our timeshare. For those who reached out feel like they weren't listened to, I would discourage this thinking and encourage patience. I would also ask that you remember the part you played in communicating to management, as there undoubtedly will be occasion to do so again in the future.

 

[New Mouse]

They can not raise total points sold ever. They based that on seasons and a calendar that included only 365 days and the least number of Friday/Saturday’s in the high demand time to come up with that total.

Any calendar year that moves Easter to a different week or we have a leap year or more weekend days will give the chart more total points.

The debate about its legality is whether the change to 7 season, the fluctuations of Easter between 3 seasons now, instead of 2...which is impacting the larger fluctuations than previous years..there has always been some.. is allowed.

According to DVC management, the chart for 2023 will not be adjusted other than for Easter changes and weekend differences and based on that it should come back down to a normal level of fluctuation.

Let me ask you this since you have spoken with them and were content with their answer.

Why has every sales guide since 1992 pitched that if one night goes up, the points must go down accordingly elsewhere...

Was every sales guide and member of DVC leadership, including the presidents just unaware of the product they created? Its really odd that this is all coming out now some 39 years later.

 

[New Mouse]

Id also argue that it doesnt even matter if there are more weekend nights in a calendar year as the number of points per room sold was a set # that had nothing to do with flucuating weekends or holidays. There are x amount of points per room, with the only flucuation allowed being a leap year, period, full stop.

Its 364/5 days. If they want a weekend or Easter to be 1 point it can be, if they want a Wednesday in January to be 50 points it can be as long as the usage data validates that.

 

[Sandisw]

Let me ask you this since you have spoken with them and were content with their answer.

Why has every sales guide since 1992 pitched that if one night goes up, the points must go down accordingly elsewhere...

Was every sales guide and member of DVC leadership, including the presidents just unaware of the product they created? Its really odd that this is all coming out now some 39 years later.

When I bought the product and read all the documents, a lot more recently, I was told up and down but that seasonal changes and weekends and such could impact that chart year to year but overall, number of points at the resort don’t change. So, if my summer night was 20 points, it could become 22, but if that happened, I’d see another night go down to that 20.

Basically, if I could do 5 nights a year for 100 points, I would always be able to find dates that would allow me to visit 5 nights for 100 points...it just may not be the same time I was currently traveling.

Now did they mean number of points sold would not change or points in the chart? I can’t say because I didn’t ask that at that time.

It is why years with a leap year made sense to me to see more points in the charts...there was an extra day..and attributed it to the notion of changes based on the calendar.