DVC at Contemporary

[sjdisneywedding]

The popularity of the All Star Suites and renting DVC points for One and Two Bedroom Villas shows that there IS demand for Villa/Suite type accommodations. And there is GREAT demand for the Contemporary post-refurb, particularly with the steady the stream of convention business.

Im not quite sure I follow your stance here. This is exactly why a mixed use would work

the DVC portion would be sold out quickly and constantly full and the cash suites would have their appeal as well for the reasons you mention above regardless of the price difference between the 2.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Assuming that the "Suites" and the "Villas" are essentially the same type of unit, the problem I see is getting the general public to actually pay CRO prices for the "Suites." We've already seen the impact of DVC's inability to turn our points into cash reservations at the DVC resorts--the point values continue to creep upward and now the $95 fee.

If there's a DVC component at the CR, the public will turn almost exclusively to point rentals to stay there. That's what has happened with cash stays at OKW, SSR, BWV, etc. Disney would have no chance of getting dozens of people per night to pay $500+ via CRO if those same folks can rent for $200 / night.

Suites are similiar to a villa ....but suites don't generally have a kitchen. I have been comparing suite prices to suite prices...not suite to villa prices. There is a difference.

As another poster stated, the general public isn't aware of renting points. I have been going to WDW on a regular basis for years and didn't fully understand DVC until recently. I rented points for my son and his bride after accidently stumbling onto these boards a year ago.

I paid full price for my rooms until then. Ouch!

 

[spiceycat]

We've already seen the impact of DVC's inability to turn our points into cash reservations at the DVC resorts--the point values continue to creep upward and now the $95 fee..

the hotel prices are increasing. So the point value will increase. I haven't seem any great increase there (okay the first year they made it be more to the hotel with tax was an great increase - but that was back in 2002)

the $95 fee is probably more to kept members (like me) who want a night or two at a WDW resort. It certainly won't stop me from staying their 5 nights if I wanted too. but would definitely stop my night or two.

the DVC resort are for DVC members - the WDW hotels are extra. but that is all they are. DVC can do away with them at any time.

If there's a DVC component at the CR, the public will turn almost exclusively to point rentals to stay there. That's what has happened with cash stays at OKW, SSR, BWV, etc. Disney would have no chance of getting dozens of people per night to pay $500+ via CRO if those same folks can rent for $200 / night.

boy this is a BIG assumption. Not many WDW guests understand or know about DCV. of those that do - I would say less than 40% would rent from a DVC member. Some people want security more than a good deal. The more DVC members that cheat these people the harder it will be the rent your points in the first place. CRO will always get more customer than DVC member renting.

the problem with OKW and SSR is the same problem with the old Disney Institute. People don't like that it is not walking or boating distance to a theme park. DTD is nice, but doesn't count.

AKV might not have this problem - because it has it own animals. it is not necessary to go to AK to see the animals.

BWV is always hard to get. maybe you should visit the resort board more often. they are people there that want BWV, BCV and VWL - who can't get them because CRO doesn't have them yet. They won't, in most cases, rent from a DVC member - because they don't trust strangers (and I certainly don't blame them)

 

[nuts]

This is all very interesting speculation...but I think all we have to do is look at what Disney is doing right now to predict what they will do tomorrow. Look at GCV...split use. Yes, DVD wanted all of it, but resorts said no. What I am hearing is that resorts is saying the same thing for the new unit at CR. Each division within Disney has to meet revenue and profit objectives. Resorts is experiencing tremendous booking pressure at CR (and lost revenue because they took the wing out of commission). Yes, DVD does make disney lots of money too. But, resorts owns the land. They are in the drivers seat, and believe they can make money with the wing as well. People seem to forget that Disney is a very large corporation with divisions. Each division is run like a separate company with its own (internal) P&L.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

This is all very interesting speculation...but I think all we have to do is look at what Disney is doing right now to predict what they will do tomorrow. Look at GCV...split use. Yes, DVD wanted all of it, but resorts said no. What I am hearing is that resorts is saying the same thing for the new unit at CR. Each division within Disney has to meet revenue and profit objectives. Resorts is experiencing tremendous booking pressure at CR (and lost revenue because they took the wing out of commission). Yes, DVD does make disney lots of money too. But, resorts owns the land. They are in the drivers seat, and believe they can make money with the wing as well. People seem to forget that Disney is a very large corporation with divisions. Each division is run like a separate company with its own (internal) P&L.

I dont know if I go quite that far. Yes they are separate divisions, yes they are run as independantly as posible, but these are not run quite like separate companies. Their decisions effect each of the groups and there is ultimately someone overseeing them both.

There are decisions which need to fed up the chain, resorts cant simply say "we want it so we got it" same holds true for DVD/DVC

 

[tjkraz]

the hotel prices are increasing. So the point value will increase.

That's not really a valid justification.

Let's say a guest wants to book a CR Garden View room with points. During Regular Season that room currently costs 32 points. Using those 32 points, Disney can pull 4 OKW Studio nights (Adv or Choice Season) to try and rent thru CRO to make back the money.

The CR room, which costs $259 per night today, WILL increase over time. But so will the price they charge for the OKW rooms (currently $279 per night.) Disney shouldn't have to raise the points to increase the revenue earned on these trades.

The biggest justification for point increases is reduced success in renting the rooms thru CRO. Obviously they aren't going to rent 100% of the villas turned over to CRO. Let's say that at one time they averaged 60% success in renting DVC units thru CRO. If that number has since fallen to 50% or 40% or 30% success, DVC will need more and more points for external trades in order to just keep trading at break-even financially.

I don't know that I would agree that "not many" people know about point renting. That may have been true 5-6 years ago. Now just about ever Disney-themed website or guidebook has information on point renting.

I may well be wrong about the cash demand for DVC villas, but my comments are based upon the following facts:

1. Point costs for non-DVC destinations keep going up (see explanation above.)

2. Frequent posts from people asking "why can't I book ___ with my points, but cash guests can get it?"

3. Point renting has never been as mainstream as it is now. Just look at the traffic on the R&T board. I'm not saying that the cash market is non-existent, but I don't see it as being in a growth mode. At least that's my take on dual-use facilities where you can book the same facility with either cash or by renting DVC points.

4. All of the recent Developer's Points incentives. This summer they were giving double Developer's Points for AKV and SSR purchases; someone who bought jus 160 at AKV would get 320 Developer's Points. That's enough to book a Savanna View Studio for SIXTEEN consecutive nights. At a cash rate of about $280, DVC gave away almost $4500 worth of points. That's more than just an incentive--to me it's an acknowledgment that they can't find a more profitable use for the points.

 

[tjkraz]

I dont know if I go quite that far. Yes they are separate divisions, yes they are run as independantly as posible, but these are not run quite like separate companies. Their decisions effect each of the groups and there is ultimately someone overseeing them both.

There are decisions which need to fed up the chain, resorts cant simply say "we want it so we got it" same holds true for DVD/DVC

I'd say the best (or at least most timely) indication of how much say Parks & Resorts has in the decision is the size of the Villas at the Grand Californian. Clearly they can sell more than 50 villas at the GC, yet that's all DVC is getting.

 

[spiceycat]

you kept trying to say that WDW hotel room is the same as DVC studio based on cash.

IT WAS NEVER DONE THAT WAY.

you are part of the DVC program not the WDW program. there was always a big different between the points charged for a WDW resort room and a DVC resort room.

I got some good deals because WDW forget to kept changing the resort side. they always changed the cruise side - but I think they just forget to change the resort side.

since I mentioned here the good deals was getting they changed it the next year. they did add concierge - which we couldn't get before - even when we offer to pay for it at the resort.

no hotel likes the guest to stay just a night or two - but since DVC allows it.

so I am not surprised that now WDW wants $95 to exchange it.

It is an EXCHANGE.

you are guaranteed DVC villa not WDW resort rooms.

you realize that it could be much, much worst - most timeshare have II period. that is it - that is all there is.

no offense but boy you have some strange ideals. If WDW resort guests did not like the DVC resort - then believe me DVC guides would have a hard time selling them (they certainly did in the beginning). but they don't any longer.

 

[tjkraz]

Suites are similiar to a villa ....but suites don't generally have a kitchen. I have been comparing suite prices to suite prices...not suite to villa prices. There is a difference.

Unknown factors which would influence the decision include the size of the units and the amount guests are willing to pay. Disney may well be charging $1000+ per night for a 1500 sq ft "Suite" at another resort. But that doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on the CR if "Suites" there are more in the DVC-villa neighborhood of 700 sq ft.

That issue aside, I still don't see reason to automatically conclude that pricing would follow a set formula. If Disney has determined that deluxe multi-room suites are a growth industry, yet demand caps-out at a certain level, they will price the unit accordingly. Most DVC One Bedroom Villas are about twice the size of a Studio or a standard guest room, yet they aren't priced at 2x the Studio rate.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

I'd say the best (or at least most timely) indication of how much say Parks & Resorts has in the decision is the size of the Villas at the Grand Californian. Clearly they can sell more than 50 villas at the GC, yet that's all DVC is getting.

I dont disagree with the fact that resorts may have more pull than dvc

BUT, it doesnt mean dvc has zero pull. They are getting those 50 units after all at GC, Im sure resorts tried to push for all the rooms for themselves.

As with any business or company its a balancing act. Rarely does one division win outright over anyone with an all or nothing conclusion. Which points to the possibility that it will be shared

 

[spiceycat]

I'd say the best (or at least most timely) indication of how much say Parks & Resorts has in the decision is the size of the Villas at the Grand Californian. Clearly they can sell more than 50 villas at the GC, yet that's all DVC is getting.

you don't know what went into that.

there are probably other timeshares in the areas - that have a long track record. So that means much more competition.

and lets face it DL is not WDW. You can walk into DL without having to stay on property at DL.

if the 50 villa sell out in record time - then I can definitely see more DVC going up. but can't blame Disney for wanting proof before a bigger commitment. You may not have known - but when OKW was going up it was build in sections (like SSR). So if the guides had problem selling - it would have been a much, much smaller resort than it is.

also remember they are also building in Hawaii - that is also a big risk takers considering how poorly VB and HH did compared to the WDW ones.

compare the early days of DVC to the one in Cal - because from their point of view it is. (okay my opinion)

also remember that both VB & HH would be much bigger today - if they did not have a problem with sales.

 

[tjkraz]

I'll assume this was intended for me...

you kept trying to say that WDW hotel room is the same as DVC studio based on cash.

IT WAS NEVER DONE THAT WAY.

you are part of the DVC program not the WDW program. there was always a big different between the points charged for a WDW resort room and a DVC resort room.

I got some good deals because WDW forget to kept changing the resort side. they always changed the cruise side - but I think they just forget to change the resort side.

since I mentioned here the good deals was getting they changed it the next year. they did add concierge - which we couldn't get before - even when we offer to pay for it at the resort.

I am fully cognizant of the differences between DVC and non-DVC and why one costs much more than the other. What I disagree with is the suggestion that the DVC points increase simply because the prices of the non-DVC destinations go up.

As I tried to illustrate, yes, the cost for a CR room go up. But so do the prices that Disney charges for DVC villas thru CRO. When we trade out, DVC takes our points and uses them to set aside rooms that are given to CRO to sell. Even though the CR room rate is going up yearly, so is the rate of the OKW Studio thru CRO.

DVC shouldn't have to charge more points in 2008 (or 2009, 2010, etc.) just because prices increase. Prices are going up on both sides of the equation.

no hotel likes the guest to stay just a night or two - but since DVC allows it.

so I am not surprised that now WDW wants $95 to exchange it.

It is an EXCHANGE.

you are guaranteed DVC villa not WDW resort rooms.

you realize that it could be much, much worst - most timeshare have II period. that is it - that is all there is.

I don't think I actually mentioned the $95 fee. I assume that's an administrative fee and doesn't really figure into the economics of balancing outside trades.

no offense but boy you have some strange ideals. If WDW resort guests did not like the DVC resort - then believe me DVC guides would have a hard time selling them (they certainly did in the beginning). but they don't any longer.

I never implied that people did not like DVC resorts. What I DO question is the viability of a mixed-use ("Suites" and "Villas") facility at the CR. If cash guests can pay $500 per night to Disney vs $200 per night to a renter for the exact same room, it's going to impact demand.

With resorts like BCV and BWV being only 200-400 rooms each to begin with, Disney only has...what...maybe 5-10 rooms per night at each to sell to cash guests. By comparison, if you've got 200 DVC CR rooms available for use (or rental by non-members), is Disney going to be able to sell 100+ rooms per night thru CRO for 3-4 times the price???

If I had to handicap my feelings toward the new CR building at this point, it would go something like this:

All DVC - 2:1
All suites - 5:1
Less than 50% DVC with the rest suites - 8:1
More than 50% DVC with the rest suites - 15:1

That's just my two-cents...

 

[TLSnell1981]

Unknown factors which would influence the decision include the size of the units and the amount guests are willing to pay. Disney may well be charging $1000+ per night for a 1500 sq ft "Suite" at another resort. But that doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on the CR if "Suites" there are more in the DVC-villa neighborhood of 700 sq ft.

That issue aside, I still don't see reason to automatically conclude that pricing would follow a set formula. If Disney has determined that deluxe multi-room suites are a growth industry, yet demand caps-out at a certain level, they will price the unit accordingly. Most DVC One Bedroom Villas are about twice the size of a Studio or a standard guest room, yet they aren't priced at 2x the Studio rate.

I not concluding that will be the pricing used....just speculating. I was using the Poly as an example because it is another deluxe MK resort. I am more familiar with their prices.

 

[spiceycat]

ully cognizant of the differences between DVC and non-DVC and why one costs much more than the other. What I disagree with is the suggestion that the DVC points increase simply because the prices of the non-DVC destinations go up.

As I tried to illustrate, yes, the cost for a CR room go up. But so do the prices that Disney charges for DVC villas thru CRO. When we trade out, DVC takes our points and uses them to set aside rooms that are given to CRO to sell. Even though the CR room rate is going up yearly, so is the rate of the OKW Studio thru CRO.

DVC shouldn't have to charge more points in 2008 (or 2009, 2010, etc.) just because prices increase. Prices are going up on both sides of the equation.

DVC wants you to stay in DVC not WDW resorts.

there is and has always been a penalty for trading to the WDW resorts.

again you are comparing DVC to WDW - you can't do that.

WDW resorts are NOT part of DVC. DVC each and every year has to renew the contracts with all outside parties. including the wdw resorts. WDW sets up the point value it will take for trade.

plus you are not counting the CRO cut - I think someone say it 50% of the room rate. Since the CRO has to rent these DVC rooms out. they get a big cut of the money. (like all sales people do)

do not even consider the price non-dvc member pay to stay at a DVC resort. It has nothing to do with it. It is not even considered. What is important is what the WDW resorts will take for their resort - that is all that counts.

You act like DVC is making the WDW resorts go up each year because they are punishing us. DVC does not set the point value for non-DVC.

if you wanted the same - you should have joined when DVC was new. then it was the same from 1991 to 2002.

 

[tjkraz]

You act like DVC is making the WDW resorts go up each year because they are punishing us.

Not at all. What I suspect is that CRO is experiencing less success in selling DVC rooms on a cash basis. If they used to rent (hypothetical) 60% of all rooms turned over to CRO and now it's down to 40%, then obviously they need to raise the points for trading out.

And if that success level is decreasing, point renters would be the #1 reason why, IMO.

We actually DO know that Disney is struggling to sell its DVC rooms at cash prices. Over the summer they changed the name of the resort category from "Disney Vacation Club Resorts" to "Disney Deluxe Villa Resorts" citing confusion among cash-paying guests. Whether a name change alone is enough to fix the problem remains to be seen.

 

[DVC Mike]

Interesting speculation from anyone... but I'm just going to wait and see what is announced. Of course, I'm hoping that at least part of it will be DVC, and if it turns out to be just that, then I'm calling my guide and adding on!

 

[Plutofan]

Not at all. What I suspect is that CRO is experiencing less success in selling DVC rooms on a cash basis. If they used to rent (hypothetical) 60% of all rooms turned over to CRO and now it's down to 40%, then obviously they need to raise the points for trading out.

And if that success level is decreasing, point renters would be the #1 reason why, IMO.

We actually DO know that Disney is struggling to sell its DVC rooms at cash prices. Over the summer they changed the name of the resort category from "Disney Vacation Club Resorts" to "Disney Deluxe Villa Resorts" citing confusion among cash-paying guests. Whether a name change alone is enough to fix the problem remains to be seen.

Also if you add in that SSR is now part of the land cruise options, Disney visa special cash rates at SSR and OKW, upgrades from Pop Century to SSR and OKW that tells me that Disney is probably getting more point inventory through trades than they can handle. To me that may be one of the problems that Disney did not anticipate by building a large resort like SSR instead of building several smaller resorts that have different theming. Cash rooms at several smaller resorts would probably sell easier than one big resort just because people would like to try it out. Just a thought..

 

[spiceycat]

Not at all. What I suspect is that CRO is experiencing less success in selling DVC rooms on a cash basis. If they used to rent (hypothetical) 60% of all rooms turned over to CRO and now it's down to 40%, then obviously they need to raise the points for trading out.

And if that success level is decreasing, point renters would be the #1 reason why, IMO.

We actually DO know that Disney is struggling to sell its DVC rooms at cash prices. Over the summer they changed the name of the resort category from "Disney Vacation Club Resorts" to "Disney Deluxe Villa Resorts" citing confusion among cash-paying guests. Whether a name change alone is enough to fix the problem remains to be seen.

boy you are making some big assumptions.

first of all WDW (since it started changing it 2002) has each and every year raised the points needed. That is not a change. the new points are the rack rate on Sun-thurs with taxes. NO DISCOUNT.

secondly if what you say happens go read your contract. Disney can stop trading out to WDW resorts. It has the right to do that. and in your situation would.

the Sept thing was a way to introduce more WDW guests to DVC that haven't been - notice the 1-bedroom offer - plus to help Pop which did overbook. I really doubt they would do it again. Just because so many DVC members were upset over it. Other timeshares do this time and time again. Westgate offers it 1-bedroom for $29 a night. Even the Marriott will offer a discount price to get you to stay there and hopefully buy.

Disney changing names is not strange. before 2007 - it was called home away from home and included FW cabins. in 2007 they called it DVC - but then couldn't include FW cabins. I think (don't know) this is just a way to put FW cabins back with the DVC resorts.

not because CRO is having trouble booking DVC resorts. go look on the WDW resort board then tell me that CRO is having trouble booking DVC resorts.

now the sales prices that Disney sometimes has for OKW and SSR - are just another sales approach. they won't make you attend the sales pitch - but if someone wants to they are very glad to do it.

OKW and SSR have the same problem that DI did before - the area does not have a theme park within walking or boating distance. DI stayed so empty that Disney gave the entire resort to DVC. because CRO couldn't - no matter what they tried - book enough of this resort for Disney to make a profit on it.

 

[MaryD73]

Also if you add in that SSR is now part of the land cruise options, Disney visa special cash rates at SSR and OKW, upgrades from Pop Century to SSR and OKW that tells me that Disney is probably getting more point inventory through trades than they can handle.

I am going to speculate from a corporate perspective here. All of this stems from the fact that until SSR sells there virtunually no chance of them being at capacity except at peak times - therefore have extra rooms.

1) They cut a deal with DCL/CRO to reduce the cost somewhere in the process of transferring points for cruises. i.e. instead of paying the DCL line X for a DVC members, they pay x-y plus access to z number of rooms at a discount rate.

2) Again DVC had the extra rooms and CRO knew they can always sell Pop at full value with or without free dining. So they internally negotiated for x rooms and moved some people over there 'upgrading them' but really releasing more rack rate rooms. Found out that when people stayed there they realized what DVC was and purchased. So now there are more short term incentives to see if they can recreate the process.

These are just theories. Sorry off topic. Still waiting for CRV!

 

[Tinkerdreams]

If there's a DVC component at the CR, the public will turn almost exclusively to point rentals to stay there. That's what has happened with cash stays at OKW, SSR, BWV, etc. Disney would have no chance of getting dozens of people per night to pay $500+ via CRO if those same folks can rent for $200 / night.

I'm somewhat surprised that Disney has not "taken over" the renting of points - similar to what they do when they exercise ROFR. If they are having difficultly competing with CRO sales versus the DVC renter they should have 3 options for DVC owners - Bank, Borrow and Rent. The rent part can be a decision to "sell" Disney the points you want to rent for $10/point. Disney could then "rent" these points to the general public for let's say $20 - $25 per point.

Several issues can be "resolved" with this.

1. Renters and rentees no longer have to worry about trust since renters will book with Disney.

2. Potential renters would not have to search for the needed number of points since Disney would collect them from DVC members through this additional option. (This does not guarentee that each DVC resort has an unlimited number of points)

3. Disney rents these points which they've already sold to the DVC member and makes an additional profit.

4. Disney controls the value of the rooms and the people renting these points still get a reasonable deal.