DVC at Contemporary

[tor]

The story I've heard repeated...from multiple sources...is that the new structure was on-track to be DVC until the Contemporary refurb drove demand thru the roof. DVC does have a very important place in the Disney landscape, but cash rooms are more profitable assuming you can keep them filled with guests.

Factor in the popularity of the All star suites (guests wanting larger accommodations), work permits that actually use the phrase "Contemporary Suites", and the prime location adjacent to the MK. Suddenly it doesn't seem quite so far-fetched that Disney may try to keep these rooms for cash guests.

Yes, people can book DVC rooms via CRO. The problem is that they can also rent DVC points for pennies on the dollar and get the same room. If Disney kept DVC completely out of the CR, anyone wanting to stay there wouldn't have the option of turning to third-party renters. Of course, the volume of guests willing to pay $500-600 per night (during low seasons) for MK-view suites remains to be seen.

It probably will be DVC, but to this point I've yet to see a rock-solid argument either way that takes all factors into account. Of course, I didn't think Disney would spend over $100 million on land alone to build in Hawaii, so what do I know.

Another thing to consider is that if they keep it as cash and it doesn't work out they can always turn around and sell it to us DVCers who have know problems grabbing up the crumbs like in AKV they couldn't rent them so they turned it to DVC and all of a sudden you have people that would knife each other in the back to be on some stupid quilt or blanket thing.

 

[spiceycat]

With regard to the term "Suites", does anyone know what these would look like?

I'm wondering if they would be constructed to the same specifications as DVC villas?

If the new construction turns out to be mixed use or even all cash rooms, a rebalance of cash vs. DVC would be much simpler if the rooms were identical and could be easily converted - unlike AKL which required extensive remodeling to turn cash rooms into DVC (though I understand those rooms were originaly built without any conversion in mind).

Just curious if anyone has any insight into what type of a balance they might try to strike between cash "suites" and DVC?

well a Disney suite now does have a small refrigerator and I think a mircowave - no washer or dryer, no full kitchen (although this does have exceptions)

they generally have a more upscale interior and more room for sleeping.

that say I happen to love AKV - it is probably the nicest design for a studio that I have seem.

and yes, also think that Disney knows it needs more upscale suites. as long as they say sold out at the Polyn, GF and I think even the CR - that says to me at least part of the building may be suites.

on the other hand DVC villa will sell - sell out in a short time and the money can go on to other projects.

in the suites it will take Disney several long years to get their money out of it. the economy does not look good for the next several years. for that reason would definitely say DVC.

 

[keishashadow]

Each guide can maintain their own lists of members who are interested in various new resorts - official or not. My guide has listed me as one of the people to call. They are sales people, and it would make sense for them to do this. This doesn't, in any way, confirm CRV.

my guide got back to me & stated re CRV - that:

"...while it would be a great additon to the DVC family, no announcement has officially been made..."

and

"...no unofficial early call lists...members traditionally are offered pre-sales via a post card announcement..."

I told him not to worry about the postcard

 

[Tink-n-Belle]

If Disney is offering a DVC at the Grand Californian why wouln't they offer it at the Contemporary?? I think they may offer both suites and DVC-- but then again they offer DVC to everyone now anyways-- maybe they will give CRO more of a percentage of the rooms at the Contemporary to use.

The nice thing with DVC is that they have guaranteed revenue-- And Disney knows that tourism can change in a minute and that at least with DVC they know that they will get the money no matter what because of our dues. I think DVC @the Contemporary is a very smart move for Disney!!

And another thing to consider, if Disney wanted to add more rooms for Cash why are they letting 3rd parties build hotels on Disney land? Why would they let another resort compete with the Disney Resorts for Cash?

I guess only time will tell--but in the meantime- I'm saving and dreaming!!

 

[tjkraz]

If Disney is offering a DVC at the Grand Californian why wouln't they offer it at the Contemporary?? I think they may offer both suites and DVC-- but then again they offer DVC to everyone now anyways-- maybe they will give CRO more of a percentage of the rooms at the Contemporary to use.

I don't see where the Grand Californian provides any forshadowing as to what's happening at the Contemporary. With just 50 rooms, the GC is little more than Disney testing the waters out west. Meanwhile you can't swing a bat in Florida without hitting a DVC.

The nice thing with DVC is that they have guaranteed revenue-- And Disney knows that tourism can change in a minute and that at least with DVC they know that they will get the money no matter what because of our dues. I think DVC @the Contemporary is a very smart move for Disney!!

The big benefit to DVC is clearly that it makes the parks somewhat recession-proof. But as I pointed out there is a lot more money to be made in cash rooms...assuming you can keep them full.

Right now Disney is filling more Florida hotel rooms than it ever has. They've also reduced their inventory in a number of ways--combining rooms at the All-Stars to create suites, turning several hundred AKL rooms into DVC and demolishing the CR's North Garden Wing.

I'm sure Disney has done many studys and surveys and has a decent idea of whether people would line-up to pay $500+ per night for a suite with a Magic Kingdom view. If the numbers are there, the CR will be a lot more profitable as suites rather than a one-time cash grab.

Also consider that since SSR was first offered, DVC sales have more than doubled. If nothing else that demonstrates that Disney can build DVC's just about anywhere on property and people will buy. Why turn such a prime piece of real estate over to DVC when there are other options available?

And another thing to consider, if Disney wanted to add more rooms for Cash why are they letting 3rd parties build hotels on Disney land? Why would they let another resort compete with the Disney Resorts for Cash?

There are two projects going on right now:

1. Four Seasons - This is Disney's acknowledgement that they don't want to spend the money necessary for a true Four Star (or is it Five Star?) hotel experience. They tried with the Grand Floridian, but could never get it to a level that appeals to the truly elite. Four Seasons will fill that void.

2. Western Way Expansion - While this project is physically on Disney property, it will be marketed as off-site. It's nothing more than Disney turning a profit on unused land. It will basically be another variation on the resorts east of Downtown Disney. Guests will rely on the individual hotel operators for transportation, and they'll actually pass thru a "main gate" welcoming them to Walt Disney World between their hotel and the parks. This project was designed to earn Disney some income while it's true competition is the Holiday Inn's and Motel Sixes.

 

[spiceycat]

2. Western Way Expansion - While this project is physically on Disney property, it will be marketed as off-site. It's nothing more than Disney turning a profit on unused land. It will basically be another variation on the resorts east of Downtown Disney. Guests will rely on the individual hotel operators for transportation, and they'll actually pass thru a "main gate" welcoming them to Walt Disney World between their hotel and the parks. This project was designed to earn Disney some income while it's true competition is the Holiday Inn's and Motel Sixes.

sorry but this time you are wrong. the big sign is right off on 429. It is up and it would be a BIG MESS to move. besides they are on Disney property just like DD - just not disney owned.

haven't heard about the transportation - Dolphin and Swan used Disney, DD uses mears.

 

[tjkraz]

sorry but this time you are wrong. the big sign is right off on 429. It is up and it would be a BIG MESS to move. besides they are on Disney property just like DD - just not disney owned.

haven't heard about the transportation - Dolphin and Swan used Disney, DD uses mears.

I'm just going by the statements issued when the project was announced. It was described as "...a mixed-use tourist commercial district just outside Disney's gateway entrance."

Regardless, as long as they aren't branded "Disney", as is the case with the DTD hotels, I don't see them as being any direct competition to the 20+ Disney resorts. Many people appear willing to pay the premium rates for "on-site", even though there are similar options 1/2 mile away. They want the cute room keys, Disney busses, package delivery, Dining Plan, and so on.

Others would rather pay less to stay non-Disney, and that's the competition for the Western Way development.

 

[Tink-n-Belle]

I don't see where the Grand Californian provides any forshadowing as to what's happening at the Contemporary. With just 50 rooms, the GC is little more than Disney testing the waters out west. Meanwhile you can't swing a bat in Florida without hitting a DVC.

The foreshadowing is that the GC is prime property too, right outside the parks. If they are putting a DVC on prime property in California then why not Florida. In addition, even though the Contemporary is on "prime property", the Mk is not everyone's favorite park. The contemporary will attract those that like the Mk, but not everyone. If I had to choose the best prime property it would be where the BW is today. Its walking distant to 2 parks and they put up a DVC there.

And again, why are they allowing so much building by other companies-- its only competition. Why would they put up suites (they will also have a bay view)at the contemporary when someone could stay 1/2 mile away in a 5 star hotel. It just doesn't make sense.

And according to the financial stock report DVC is a bright spot in the company. Disney may be able to make more money on CASH REssie, but with DVC they don't have to attract us- we are already coming to Disney. When I was young, how many tv commercial about Disney were there. Now its every other commercial --and if they fill up every hotel room -why do they offer free dining. Basically it cost money to fill those rooms- whereas DVC rooms are pretty much full without the additional expense. And how many people come as a result of DVc'ers. And if DVC doubled its sales with SSR then why wouldn't the offer the Contemporary- so they could double them again and have 200,000 repeat families coming to Disney every year!

 

[tjkraz]

The foreshadowing is that the GC is prime property too, right outside the parks. If they are putting a DVC on prime property in California then why not Florida.

At Disneyland you could make that argument (right outside the parks) for every proposed location. It's just not that big.

In addition, even though the Contemporary is on "prime property", the Mk is not everyone's favorite park. The contemporary will attract those that like the Mk, but not everyone. If I had to choose the best prime property it would be where the BW is today. Its walking distant to 2 parks and they put up a DVC there.

I don't know about you but I think I've lost sight of where this discussion is even going.

Let me just say this:

I do believe that there will be SOME DVC component at the CR. That said, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that it also may not happen...or at the very least, that it will be much smaller that some people may wish. The Grand Californian certainly falls into the latter category.

Unless I've been mislead by multiple sources, it's a reality that there was a change-of-heart among Disney management in the last 18 months. That land was earmarked for DVC development for many years, only to have the Parks and Resorts people start to have second thoughts when they saw how popular the CR has become among cash guests post-refurb.

Remember that Disney is a major corporation with a lot of ambitious department heads and unit VPs. You often have to throw the greater good out the window and realize that it still comes down to individuals trying to protect their own turf. If the Resorts unit can come up with numbers which suggest significant profit via cash Suites at the CR, it doesn't necessarily matter what Jim Lewis wants or what Four Seasons is doing across the way.

We could go 'round in circles all day pitching different arguments, and all of them may have a logical foundation. But as I said I don't see any rock-solid concensus in either direction. Both cash rooms and DVC are very important to the economy of Walt Disney World. We'll all find out together which unit won this particular battle.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Rooms at MK resorts are sky high, suites are even worse. Do they really attract that many people to the high dollar suites? You have the villas for less money if you want the space...and as stated there is a Four Seasons being built for those who want a 5 star hotel.

 

[tjkraz]

Rooms at MK resorts are sky high...

Yet the CR is running at peak occupancy since the tower rooms were refurbished.

...suites are even worse. Do they really attract that many people to the high dollar suites?

Only Disney is in a position to render judgement there. However the suites they built at the All-Stars have been an unqualified success. If things go according to plan they'll start work on the other half of Pop Century as all suites in the next 1-2 years.

You have the villas for less money if you want the space...

But let's not forget that DVC isn't right for everyone. Disney regularly fills 30,000+ guest cash rooms on a nightly basis. Compared to the 2-3,000 DVC villas and it's clear the cash guests are still driving the machine.

...and as stated there is a Four Seasons being built for those who want a 5 star hotel.

Most Four Seasons accommodations are still traditional hotel rooms. And Four Seasons isn't positioned to provide things like 5 min walking access to the Magic Kingdom, monorail access to Epcot or a balcony view of Cindarella Castle.

I don't see Four Seasons as a threat to development at the Contemporary any moreso than it's a threat to the BoardWalk, Beach Club or Polynesian. Four Seasons appeals to a different type of customer altogether.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Most Four Seasons accommodations are still traditional hotel rooms. And Four Seasons isn't positioned to provide things like 5 min walking access to the Magic Kingdom, monorail access to Epcot or a balcony view of Cindarella Castle.

I don't see Four Seasons as a threat to development at the Contemporary any moreso than it's a threat to the BoardWalk, Beach Club or Polynesian. Four Seasons appeals to a different type of customer altogether.

I don't know how different the customer will actually be in that price range. There aren't many that will be able to pay thousands of dollars a night...which is what the CR suites will run. BW, BC are less expensive and different lodging than Four Seasons.

I don't think the demand for suites at CR will be that high. I'm still betting that CR will be mixed use. It makes too much sense.

 

[spiceycat]

Rooms at MK resorts are sky high, suites are even worse. Do they really attract that many people to the high dollar suites? You have the villas for less money if you want the space...and as stated there is a Four Seasons being built for those who want a 5 star hotel.

they do attract alot to high dollar ones - enough that some people don't get what they want. lots of times because of this - those people elect to go somewhere instead of WDW.

so WDW definitely needs more upscale suites than it has now. remember there are more millionaries today than since the 20's. Of course I will never be one of those.....oh maybe if I win the lottery.

 

[tjkraz]

I don't know how different the customer will actually be in that price range. There aren't many that will be able to pay thousands of dollars a night...which is what the CR suites will run.

I don't see any reason why Disney would have to charge THAT much. A One-Bedroom at the Beach Club starts at $425 per night. That's exactly the sort of pricing and accommodation I would envision...if they intend to offer the rooms as suites.

Making it a mixed-use facility makes sense...until you start to examine the impact of point renting. If someone can rent points for $150-200 vs Disney's $425 cash price, they will never sell the cash rooms. And the difficulty of selling DVC rooms to cash customers is getting more and more apparent daily (the new $95 fee, DVC using its points in "Developer's Points" incentives rather than as a medium to rent the rooms .)

Right now I'm leaning more toward the all-or-nothing approach--either it's all DVC or none of it is DVC. That is, assuming they aren't putting any standard guest rooms in the building. Suites + Villas is the one approach that I really think is difficult to justify.

 

[TLSnell1981]

I don't see any reason why Disney would have to charge THAT much. A One-Bedroom at the Beach Club starts at $425 per night. That's exactly the sort of pricing and accommodation I would envision...if they intend to offer the rooms as suites.

Making it a mixed-use facility makes sense...until you start to examine the impact of point renting. If someone can rent points for $150-200 vs Disney's $425 cash price, they will never sell the cash rooms. And the difficulty of selling DVC rooms to cash customers is getting more and more apparent daily (the new $95 fee, DVC using its points in "Developer's Points" incentives rather than as a medium to rent the rooms .)

Right now I'm leaning more toward the all-or-nothing approach--either it's all DVC or none of it is DVC. That is, assuming they aren't putting any standard guest rooms in the building. Suites + Villas is the one approach that I really think is difficult to justify.

"Suites" at most hotels run approx. 2-3 times the price of a regular room. I haven't priced a suite a WDW lately....I remember them being astronomical...before DVC we rented Villas for this reason(our family wouldn't fit in one room....it was that or two rooms.) I tried to find rates for suites and used the Poly for an example. The site must have old rates because it showed the low season rate at $274 and Disney's site uses $370, for a regular room, garden view. They gave suite rates between $575-$1600.(the googled site)

You could easily look at these suites being well over $1k during any season other than low season.

 

[tjkraz]

"Suites" at most hotels run approx. 2-3 times the price of a regular room. I haven't priced a suite a WDW lately....I remember them being astronomical...before DVC we rented Villas for this reason(our family wouldn't fit in one room....it was that or two rooms.) I tried to find rates for suites and used the Poly for an example. The site must have old rates because it showed the low season rate at $274 and Disney's site uses $370, for a regular room, garden view. They gave suite rates between $575-$1600.(the googled site)

You could easily look at these suites being well over $1k during any season other than low season.

I don't really understand why you're making assumptions regarding rates for similar rooms at the CR. The DVC Villas ARE Suites for all intents and purposes and the rates are public knowledge.

Sure the rates are well over $1000 per night for a two-bedroom villa during peak season, but the rates wouldn't be that high if there was zero demand.

The popularity of the All Star Suites and renting DVC points for One and Two Bedroom Villas shows that there IS demand for Villa/Suite type accommodations. And there is GREAT demand for the Contemporary post-refurb, particularly with the steady the stream of convention business.

 

[DisneyRN51207]

Rooms at MK resorts are sky high, suites are even worse. Do they really attract that many people to the high dollar suites? You have the villas for less money if you want the space...and as stated there is a Four Seasons being built for those who want a 5 star hotel.

If I didn't have DVC and was going to go less frequently, we'd probably be willing to fork out the best possible vacation that we could afford. Disney's magical anywhere, BUT I remember our honeymoon, we splurged for Deluxe (WL) and swore we'd never go back to the All-Stars where we stayed while we were in college. If we had the money, we'd definitely would have gone for a MK view CR room.

 

[spiceycat]

Suites + Villas is the one approach that I really think is difficult to justify.

Why?

disney is trying to make the DVC resorts be better than the deluxe resorts - so why not DVC villa and suites together?

 

[tjkraz]

Why?

disney is trying to make the DVC resorts be better than the deluxe resorts - so why not DVC villa and suites together?

Assuming that the "Suites" and the "Villas" are essentially the same type of unit, the problem I see is getting the general public to actually pay CRO prices for the "Suites." We've already seen the impact of DVC's inability to turn our points into cash reservations at the DVC resorts--the point values continue to creep upward and now the $95 fee.

If there's a DVC component at the CR, the public will turn almost exclusively to point rentals to stay there. That's what has happened with cash stays at OKW, SSR, BWV, etc. Disney would have no chance of getting dozens of people per night to pay $500+ via CRO if those same folks can rent for $200 / night.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

If there's a DVC component at the CR, the public will turn almost exclusively to point rentals to stay there. That's what has happened with cash stays at OKW, SSR, BWV, etc. Disney would have no chance of getting dozens of people per night to pay $500+ via CRO if those same folks can rent for $200 / night.

somewhat maybe, but you are dealing with renting which not everyone is willing or wanting to do, you are dealing with availability of DVC rooms, if the DVC rooms are all rented out people will not have a choice except to go through CRO for the suite rooms

and you are still dealing with DVC itself, as popular as it is not everyone out there knows about it, cares about it, or whats to learn about it. so those folks have no idea what points are let alone how to rent them.

I would also think there would be other ways to slightly distguish the two types to entice the CRo ressies.