Duggars make 17!

[cardaway]

Exactly. She reminds me of someone who loves being pregnant, loves the newborn, but then doesn't enjoy the child anymore and pretty much just hands it off to someone else to care for.

I wouldn't go that far. In fact I do think this is some kind of religious belief issue, which IMO is perfectly acceaptable if the parents get appopriate help to care for the kids. I could care less what religion they follow as long as the kids don't become full time parents.

The tax issue still bugs me as well. In todays economy property taxes are a huge burden on those that own property, especially the amount they have. It no longer makes sense IMO to allow churches (and especially homes being twisted into churches) to reap all the benefits and profits of owning property and not have to share in the tax burden.

 

[mom2mek]

I AM a stay-at-home mom, so NO, I am not cheapening what we do. I also have an MFA and a limited free-lance career that I love that I have voluntarily put on the back burner so I could be home and raise my children. I want my girls to have the same choices I had - to do or be whatever they want (as long as it is legal!). My entire point was that I sincerely doubt those girls are being encouraged to follow their dreams. In fact, they are being taught to be just like their mother. So while I agree that many parents push their children toward football or cheerleading or whatever for their own purposes, the Duggars are doing the same. It isn't bad or wrong for any child to aspire to being a parent or homemaker. It is bad or wrong to tell a girl that she should aspire to nothing else because that is her lot in life.

Great - good for you!

When you say you agree that many parents push their children toward football or cheerleading or whatever for their own purposes and the Duggars are doing the same - that was exactly my point! We all strive for our children to do well but we all tend to push them in a direction we like. That seems to be what they are doing which is very normal. I don't think that they are being told not to aspire to anything other than a wife and mother, because many of the girls have aspirations to be teachers, nurses, and midwives and a lot of them are too young to even know what they would want to do, but will not only learn from their mother (who did work outside the home for many years before having a family), but also from their older siblings' success - either inside the home or outside!

 

[barkley]

I've watched the Duggar specials. They get time to act like kids too but they also work more as a family. My daughter is 5 years older than my son. She helps me often with him. Is that abuse or being part of a family? Is it only abuse because you have more than 1 child helping their siblings and around the house?

My sister is 14 years younger than me. I often helped and had chores. I babysat, I changed diapers, I fed her, I played with her. I didn't do anything those kids aren't doing. There are just more of them.

but was it your parent's expectation that you would, once your sister was weaned, be her primary caregiver? if that was the case it would have been you seeking a babysitter rather than from time to time being one. your daughter helps YOU-she does not take total care of your child and have to seek out help FROM you.

i know when dh and i decided to have children we discussed both times if we felt/belived that both jointly and individualy we could handle the demands (financial, emotional physical) and provide the love, support and nurturing we felt a child deserved/required. we never took into consideration weather we could expect or rely on any support (emotional, financial or physical) other than from ourselves. we also considered weather if something tragic occured wherein one of us was removed from the family-if we could individualy continue on. until we felt comfortable and assured that we could-we did not choose to bring a child into the world. when we did-we chose to stop at 2.

with the duggars they openly state that the only way their family works is because the expectation is that once a baby is weaned an older sib takes over the primary care and rearing of the child. to me that is not being a parent. a parent is one who nurtures and raises a child-and the duggars don't appear to me to do either. michelle simply has a child, acts as the wet nurse and as soon as it is weaned leaves the nurturing and raising to another child who has no choice but to become a parent with no role model of how to parent in the first place.

 

[1rockinmamato2]

Are you kidding? I mean really, "she doesn't enjoy the child anymore"? Come on! She loves those children, anyone can see that. She loves having babies, don't get me wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with that either - I loved having babies as well. I watched one of the shows where one of the littler ones (4 or 5 maybe) made her a homemade "pop-up" card and was so proud of it - she was as proud of it as him and praises and encourages her children all the time - we could all learn from that. I'm not saying everyone should do what they have done, but "just hands it off to someone else to care for" - that's a little ridiculous and mean and grossly inaccurate. They appear to be a family who values being together and working together and have a wonderful spirit about life and family!

I'm sorry you took my post the wrong way. I know she loves her children very much. I didn't mean to imply that she doesn't. But, the fact remains that she does assign the infant a sibling "buddy" to care for and look after the child after that time.

All I'm saying is that I've witnessed many women personally who love the pregnancy more than they do the parenting and that's what I see in Michelle.

I know she loves her children. I'd love 18 children too if I had that many. But, I wouldn't know them like I know the two I have now.

During our infertility struggles, I'd always planned on having at least three children. Now, I'm thinking two is good for a while.

 

[Crankyshank]

I am pro choice and because I am pro choice, I do not care how many children or abortions you have so long as they are all loved, cared for, and you can afford them without public assistance.

What I take issue with in regards to the Duggar family is their tax exempt status, and the fact they are so newsworthy. One is unfair to the taxpayers and the other is unfair to the children (it makes them into practically circus freaks imho)

 

[mom2mek]

. I know she loves her children. I'd love 18 children too if I had that many. But, I wouldn't know them like I know the two I have now.

.


Yes, with each child you feel like you have given them less of yourself. I know that with #2 I felt guilty both about not having as much time for my son (like I did before his sister came along) and also guilt for not having as much time with the baby as I had had with my son when he was a newborn. I'm sure everyone feels this way - and I would venture to guess that Michelle does too! It didn't stop me from having my third child, because I soon realized that your heart just grows bigger and bigger with each child and you will always have room for more if needed. Children helping Mommy by being a "buddy" to a younger child still does not replace Mommy and I've seen times with the Duggars when a group of them are going to the grocery store with Daddy and a little one wants to go and can't and Michelle is the one comforting and soothing his tears - not his buddy! Come on people, she has a lot of love in her heart! It's not all black and white!

 

[freckles and boo]

Great - good for you!

When you say you agree that many parents push their children toward football or cheerleading or whatever for their own purposes and the Duggars are doing the same - that was exactly my point! We all strive for our children to do well but we all tend to push them in a direction we like. That seems to be what they are doing which is very normal. I don't think that they are being told not to aspire to anything other than a wife and mother, because many of the girls have aspirations to be teachers, nurses, and midwives and a lot of them are too young to even know what they would want to do, but will not only learn from their mother (who did work outside the home for many years before having a family), but also from their older siblings' success - either inside the home or outside!

I really don't recall how many daughters are in this family, but what if one, just one, of them said to her parents "Mom, Dad, one day I want to go to college and study archeology. I am so fascinated by ancient people and cultures!" Do you honestly think, first of all, she would even dare express that sentiment knowing that her parents are leading her toward traditionally female dominated careers? Second, do you think they would say "Honey, you are so smart! We think you would make a great archeologist! Let's starting looking into what you should do to make that happen. You will have to study hard, you know!"?

I just don't get the impression that her dreams would be nurtured. Maybe I am wrong. I hope I am.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I am pro choice and because I am pro choice, I do not care how many children or abortions you have so long as they are all loved, cared for, and you can afford them without public assistance.

What I take issue with in regards to the Duggar family is their tax exempt status, and the fact they are so newsworthy. One is unfair to the taxpayers and the other is unfair to the children (it makes them into practically circus freaks imho)

That's where I fall. I don't care how many kids someone has or doesn't have, I don't care who marries who, I don't care who worships where or whether they worship at all. As far as I'm concerned, all of the above are personal decisions and people have a right to make their own choices and deal with any consequences.

The tax exempt status is galling, but they must have figured out a way to do it legally, if maybe not ethically. I can see Cardaway's point about no property taxes being essentially the same as public assistance. I'd love to get rid of my property taxes!

The newsworthy part is pretty much encapsulated in this thread. People seem to be very interested in commenting about how this family lives and how they raise their kids.

 

[barkley]

I really don't recall how many daughters are in this family, but what if one, just one, of them said to her parents "Mom, Dad, one day I want to go to college and study archeology. I am so fascinated by ancient people and cultures!" Do you honestly think, first of all, she would even dare express that sentiment knowing that her parents are leading her toward traditionally female dominated careers? Second, do you think they would say "Honey, you are so smart! We think you would make a great archeologist! Let's starting looking into what you should do to make that happen. You will have to study hard, you know!"?

I just don't get the impression that her dreams would be nurtured. Maybe I am wrong. I hope I am.

we have family with similar 'values' who raised their daughters and talked a good talk about how they could go on to do anything they wanted, encouraged them to be top students so they could achieve their personal goals. all the while steadily modeling to them that a woman's place was in certain careers, moreso that the ultimate career of a woman was to marry, have children and support her husband's career. when the eldest reached college age her desires were put aside for a 'bit more training in what you will need as a wife and mother, then you can study what you want' (went to some biblical school for 2 years), when she returned then it was 'why don't you take a break and help grandma', now she's almost 30-unmarried and has horrendous self esteem issues (won't go to college because she's much older than the average freshman, afraid to date because she's much older than the dating crowd in the church they belong to, socialy isolated because all her former friends are all married and only do 'family' things ). her little sister graduated a year ago-top grades, already to enter a top notch physical therapy program-a month before she's ready to start we learn that she's waiting 'a couple of years' and going off to the same biblical study program

funny thing is the son started college right out of highschool-parents were adamant he had to pursue his career goals and start living 'his own life'.

 

[mom2mek]

I really don't recall how many daughters are in this family, but what if one, just one, of them said to her parents "Mom, Dad, one day I want to go to college and study archeology. I am so fascinated by ancient people and cultures!" Do you honestly think, first of all, she would even dare express that sentiment knowing that her parents are leading her toward traditionally female dominated careers? Second, do you think they would say "Honey, you are so smart! We think you would make a great archeologist! Let's starting looking into what you should do to make that happen. You will have to study hard, you know!"?

I just don't get the impression that her dreams would be nurtured. Maybe I am wrong. I hope I am.

I do feel that her dreams would be encouraged. I think the parents both came from families that encouraged them to go out in the world and follow their dreams and to find their calling, so I think they would do the same for their children. I guess we just have very different impressions of this family!

 

[Mkrop]

Are you kidding? I mean really, "she doesn't enjoy the child anymore"? Come on! She loves those children, anyone can see that. She loves having babies, don't get me wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with that either - I loved having babies as well. I watched one of the shows where one of the littler ones (4 or 5 maybe) made her a homemade "pop-up" card and was so proud of it - she was as proud of it as him and praises and encourages her children all the time - we could all learn from that. I'm not saying everyone should do what they have done, but "just hands it off to someone else to care for" - that's a little ridiculous and mean and grossly inaccurate. They appear to be a family who values being together and working together and have a wonderful spirit about life and family!

But this is your take on it and that is ok but I dont see here like that at all. I dont see her as some totally uncaring mother either but I certainly dont think she is the end all of all mothers.

I also am a SAHM and what I would want for my kids is to have choices, these kids dont seem to get to pursue their own goals. I dont feel like she is representative of me at all!

I also helped take care of my brothers as I was 10 and 14 years older but I always felt there was a balance between chores and play that I just dont feel here, yeah I know they get to go on outings but there is just something too task oriented about this group.

I dont know what the proper number is for families, I do think that is up to the individuals involved, whether that is an only child or a big family but there needs to be some balance in the family and I just dont get that when I watch these shows, I feel these kids are too sheltered, and I dont mean from MTV or vidoe games, I mean life!

 

[spima3]

with the duggars they openly state that the only way their family works is because the expectation is that once a baby is weaned an older sib takes over the primary care and rearing of the child. to me that is not being a parent. a parent is one who nurtures and raises a child-and the duggars don't appear to me to do either. michelle simply has a child, acts as the wet nurse and as soon as it is weaned leaves the nurturing and raising to another child who has no choice but to become a parent with no role model of how to parent in the first place.

I think they expect a lot of the everyday care to fall to an older sibling, but she doesn't just write them off to this degree, and they appear to be very loving and nurturing, from what I've seen. In any family, and especially a large one, the only way for it to work is for everyone to work together. I am not my childrens' maid and the older they get, the more I expect them to assist the family.

Quite frankly, you could consider full time working parents as fitting into this above description as well. The working parents are gone all day and have someone else taking care of their childrens' needs for most of the day, yet I think most people would consider that perfectly ok, because the children are still being "raised" by their parents w/ their values. Seems to me, much the same is going on here, but many here don't share the Duggars values, so therefore, don't like the way they are doing it.

lori

 

[chobie]

FYI-I consider myself pro-choice. It is a woman's choice whether or not to have 1 child, 17 children, 1 abortion or 17 abortions. My personal morality does not matter, whether or not I would make the same choices does not matter. Reproductive rights means more than the right to end a pregnancy.

I find it inconsistent with the pro choice position when women are criticized for having too many kids. It's her choice.

It's not inconsistent. Pro-choice has nothing to do with agreeing with the choice; only insisting on the legal right to make that choice. As a pro-choice person I support her legal right to do this, but I personally find it repugnant.

I also find it repugnant when women have multiple abortions because they did not bother to use birth control. I still think they should have the legal right to do this, but I don't agree with the choice.

That is what pro-choice is about--the legal right to make a choice. Nothing more-nothing less.

 

[flipturngirl]

OMG I can not believe that this is happening. I wonder if the older kids in the family would go missing later on in life. I mean they are what 16 or 17 years old and have had siblings every year of their lifes. I thought that they were stopping at 15 or something but 17 WOW! How can they do it? If I were the top kid I would probably be hightailing it out of there. Even though they probably do not have a job and do not have any money I would be finding a way out. I am sorry but I think that it is just sick what they are doing to the kids. Also showing it on TV that makes it worse. I know a kid who has that many brothers and sisters.. They come from a country where it was needed but he doesn't make a big deal out of it, he is completley normal, he went to public school, he has a job, he has friends, he graduated from school. Wow I goes the lime light has gotten to them.

 

[chobie]

I wouldn't count them out yet on that one. When they do stop having their own children, I feel like they are the type of people to take on additional foster/adopted children. Many people do once they have surpassed their bodies' ability to have biological children, and the Duggars seem like the type to do that! In the meantime, I have 3 of my own - should I have stopped at one and then just adopted some unwanted children instead? My point is, what's the minimum # of biological children a couple should produce? I didn't realize there was one, unless you can't support them. And no, I don't consider their tax breaks as unlawful - either way you slice it there's still a lot of money managing going on in that home! $0.39 taco night at their local mexican restaurant, major bulk shopping, buying at auction, purchasing all clothing at a thrift store that benefits the homeless in NW ARkansas. Yes they have sponsors that donate things, but their motto with purchases is "buy used and save the difference." It was just recently that they moved into that big house (they built themselves and it took like 3 years to do) - before that they lived in a small 1900 sf house (I think) and made do with it so that they could save money. If we could all take that advice maybe we could be going to WDW more often! Which reminds me, I need to get back to looking at things that make me happy - back to real WDW stuff!

If they ever do adopt a hard to place child, I will be the first to applaud them. I'm not holding my breath.

There is no minimum. Have as many kids as you want. Just don't expect me, and others, to be impressed.

 

[Mkrop]

Seems to me, much the same is going on here, but many here don't share the Duggars values, so therefore, don't like the way they are doing it.

lori

What are their values exactly?

 

[grlpwrd]

Another poster mentioned that kids should have chores, and it is true to a certain extent. But as someone who had a nanny until I was 5, not because DM worked, but she just wanted to do other things besides take care of me, then move back to the States and then be 5 years old and make your own cereal and own sandwiches just so DM wouldn't have to get up and do it for me and as soon as I could learn how to clean, do that to, not help but be a maid. I am glad DM had a tubal, because I would have had to take care of that kid too.
Guess what I do now? I take care of myself, DD and DM-since DF isnt here to do things for her. I don't believe in having children so they will be your maids or have siblings to take care of the other kids just because you CHOSE to have another kid, helping out is one thing, but come on. You made, you take care of them.

Hi, T.! (This gal is a good friend of mine...please check your email! lol) I didn't know that about you.... the things I learn on the DIS. (You know how I am in real life - I am joking with you!) Now it all makes sense because you are such a strong, independent woman!

My great grandmother had 13 kids with 3 different men (she outlived them and they were of different ethnicities which was common in Hawaii back then). The older kids were in charge of the younger one's. They didn't do it the way the Duggars do, but there were expectations. I think this is a throwback of it and some people can't fathom it nowadays. They seem like such an anomaly.

I do not like how the girls are subjected and forced to do traditional "woman's" work, though. It is unsettling. Maybe it's because we are so used to women's rights, feminism, etc. that it seems so outrageous. It also seems like they all aren't having a childhood. I am more upset about it in that way than anything else.

Oh, and I don't think they are ever going to adopt either. They believe in the quiverfull (sp?) movement.

 

[chobie]

That's where I fall. I don't care how many kids someone has or doesn't have, I don't care who marries who, I don't care who worships where or whether they worship at all. As far as I'm concerned, all of the above are personal decisions and people have a right to make their own choices and deal with any consequences.

The tax exempt status is galling, but they must have figured out a way to do it legally, if maybe not ethically. I can see Cardaway's point about no property taxes being essentially the same as public assistance. I'd love to get rid of my property taxes!

The newsworthy part is pretty much encapsulated in this thread. People seem to be very interested in commenting about how this family lives and how they raise their kids.

People comment on them because they have chosen to pimp the children on tv. They are not just some private family who has chosen to have a lot of kids; they are media *****s.

 

[swea_pea1]

I'm one of 8 (1 that died before I was born, so lived with 6 siblings) so I'm not against large families at all. My entire family, all brothers, sisters, wives, husbands, grandchildren - go on vacation together every year. We love each other's company!

I'm second to the youngest, and I can tell you that while my older siblings did help both around the house and with the kids, they were not our primary caregivers. I had plenty of alone time (as did my siblings) with my parents, even when they were simultaneously handling the trials of teens in the house. Mom stayed home with us and on the weekends, Dad would take us to the zoo, or the aviary, or wherever to give her some alone time. About the only time my older siblings would babysit was when my parents would go on a "date night".

We had chores - a family with 9 people living in the house (with one bathroom ) has to divvy up the duties to make it work. But no way were my sister and I doing the laundry for the entire family at any age. When we'd get ready for vacation, my sister and I would be helping mom fold the laundry and get it packed but that was the only time I can remember getting anywhere near my brother's underwear!

I think that's the main difference in this family. I grew up in a large family and can guarantee you that had my mom not hit menopause, she'd have kept having them. But we were kids, not parents. In our family though, kids actually left the home. By the time I was going to kindergarten, my oldest brother was in college.

There is a way to raise large families without making the older siblings parent. And even without all the duties that the Duggars relegate to their kids, the children can still grow up to be close, happy, and productive.

 

[Heidict]

What are their values exactly?

I would say that their values are raising their childing in a home that lives it's life according to the bible and God. That family is important and that is the responsibilty of everyone in the family to help out, including chores and helping younger siblings. Eating a healthy meal, staying healthy, schooling, music.