Double FP for resort guests with seperate tickets.

[delmar411]

What I _think_ has happened is that when Disney de-coupled the ticket media and the entitlements to allow for multiple "devices" (tickets/cards/bands) to essentially link to the same entitlements, they also decoupled it in the Fastpass system - but only partially.

When you enter the park that day, whether you use your band, AP or KTTW card, it registers that you are in the park for all devices. However, when you get a Fastpass, it is only registering which particular device was used to get it, not on the common profile. So the KTTW card and the ticket media seemingly can both get FP on separate exclusion tracks.

At least, that's my theory.

I'll test it when I have a chance and look at the ticket codes to see what they might show. I had thought to being my previous KTTW card (still shown in my profile) so see how far it extends, but forgot. I will, however, have two sets of KTTW cards this trip.

I wonder if it requires that the person have an MDX profile for all this to be linked together.

It certainly seems like a "fixable" problem, depending on how much effort they want to put into it, vs. how long it will be expected to remain.

It's not a problem nor a glitch. And in the follow up surveys from ppl's stays WDW asks specifically if you used both together and other questions.

 

[preemiemama]

It's not a problem nor a glitch. And in the follow up surveys from ppl's stays WDW asks specifically if you used both together and other questions.

Are you proposing that it could be another test for the magicband system? They want to see how people use FP+ and if they would use both systems together?

I think the theory up to now has been that it was a glitch as doconeill stated. This would be an interesting new thought, though...

 

[doconeill]

It's not a problem nor a glitch. And in the follow up surveys from ppl's stays WDW asks specifically if you used both together and other questions.

I'm not sure I understand...you are saying that being able to get regular Fastpasses with multiple cards without restriction is what they want? I seriously doubt that.

Did the survey ask if they used both their AP and their KTTW card to get Fastpasses? I thought it was about using MagicBands and KTTW cards. That's something completely different. I'm NOT talking about using a KTTW card to get Fastpasses in addition to FP+...I'm talking about being able to get a FP with my AP, AND my KTTW card, and not have to wait for the "two hour" rule between them.

 

[delmar411]

I'm not sure I understand...you are saying that being able to get regular Fastpasses with multiple cards without restriction is what they want? I seriously doubt that.

Did the survey ask if they used both their AP and their KTTW card to get Fastpasses? I thought it was about using MagicBands and KTTW cards. That's something completely different. I'm NOT talking about using a KTTW card to get Fastpasses in addition to FP+...I'm talking about being able to get a FP with my AP, AND my KTTW card, and not have to wait for the "two hour" rule between them.

Ah I see. They were asking about KTTW cards and MB. Not the AP (or any other physical ticket) FP use.

The same coding that is allowing the KTTW cards to work is the coding that is allowing physical tickets to work as well.

 

[delmar411]

Are you proposing that it could be another test for the magicband system? They want to see how people use FP+ and if they would use both systems together?

I think the theory up to now has been that it was a glitch as doconeill stated. This would be an interesting new thought, though...

It's never been my theory that this was a glitch and I stated that as such. I stated that it was a programming change and done specifically to allow the MB testers to use whatever they wanted. Seems I was correct. The survey asked in multiple ways if the 3 FP limit was good enough or if you used KTTW to supplement or used them together in the same park, different parks, etc. The questions were worded in a way that they really wanted to trip you up and get you to click 3 is good enough. LOL

 

[CL4P TR4P]

Regardless as to if this double dipping is right or wrong, Disney policy or not, it is essentially, at it's core, ruining the way that FP is designed to work.

If you are double dipping you are basically making the FPs run out faster, so if a popular ride was going be out around 4 PM it will now be out sooner, maybe 1 PM, which means that the regular line is going to back up later in the afternoon/evening. So, while you might get two rides quickly in the morning/early afternoon you are basically shooting yourself in the foot for the rest of the day...

.. but what do any of you care, you already rode the ride 6 times with your multiple Corban Dallas multipasses.

 

[brettb]

It's not a problem nor a glitch. And in the follow up surveys from ppl's stays WDW asks specifically if you used both together and other questions.

I don't think the use of tickets OR KTTW (to get FP) with MagicBands (FP+) is what some are considering a problem or glitch, it's the use of tickets AND KTTW to get double FPs.

The RFID in the KTTW card should provide a backup method of identifying the guest to the MagicBands for anything "Mickey-to-Mickey." There may be some poor software design that forced them to decouple the KTTW from the associated ticket media but I find it hard to believe that they designed the test deliberately to allow independent FP pulls with tickets and KTTW.

Side note: I had a cast member at ToT tell me that I wasn't supposed to use my MagicBand/FP+ and the regular FPs. But he really couldn't maintain logical consistency.

"So what am I supposed to do if I used my FP+ in another park?"

"Well, then it's OK. And we're passing that feedback along. But it's not fair to regular guests, they can only get one FP."

(Thought, not said Dude. I can get way more than three fastpasses in a day. And definitely more than once for a given attraction. Do you seriously want me to cripple my vacation for your half-baked test?

There are pros and cons to both FP and FP+. But that app.....

 

[delmar411]

I don't think the use of tickets OR KTTW (to get FP) with MagicBands (FP+) is what some are considering a problem or glitch, it's the use of tickets AND KTTW to get double FPs.

The RFID in the KTTW card should provide a backup method of identifying the guest to the MagicBands for anything "Mickey-to-Mickey." There may be some poor software design that forced them to decouple the KTTW from the associated ticket media but I find it hard to believe that they designed the test deliberately to allow independent FP pulls with tickets and KTTW.

Side note: I had a cast member at ToT tell me that I wasn't supposed to use my MagicBand/FP+ and the regular FPs. But he really couldn't maintain logical consistency.

"So what am I supposed to do if I used my FP+ in another park?"

"Well, then it's OK. And we're passing that feedback along. But it's not fair to regular guests, they can only get one FP."

(Thought, not said Dude. I can get way more than three fastpasses in a day. And definitely more than once for a given attraction. Do you seriously want me to cripple my vacation for your half-baked test?

There are pros and cons to both FP and FP+. But that app.....

The ability to pull FP with ticket media that are linked to MBs is an unintended consequence of disabling the coding that would block the KTTW. There isn't a separate coding string to make the system reject the ticket media. It's the same reason expired KTTW cards work. It is all the same coding string and Disney simply doesn't care because they are taking the gamble that most ppl won't know or be 'afraid' to double/triple dip. And the reality is the majority don't even know and won't even try if they have been told different. The IT department has plenty of work to do with MM+ and isn't going to spend any time changing coding on an old system that is going away in the next few years.

I get that it isn't fair. That's right, it is not fair. But it is what it is. I'm happy to share... If anyone is in the parks when I am, find me and I'll get you FPs. Sound better? LOL

And I agree, the app is a mess. And ppl want them messing with legacy FP coding?? EEK!

 

[brettb]

Regardless as to if this double dipping is right or wrong, Disney policy or not, it is essentially, at it's core, ruining the way that FP is designed to work.

If you are double dipping you are basically making the FPs run out faster, so if a popular ride was going be out around 4 PM it will now be out sooner, maybe 1 PM, which means that the regular line is going to back up later in the afternoon/evening. So, while you might get two rides quickly in the morning/early afternoon you are basically shooting yourself in the foot for the rest of the day...

.. but what do any of you care, you already rode the ride 6 times with your multiple Corban Dallas multipasses.

I don't think Disney is concerned with FP being "ruined" during the testing. Those machines will be gone during rollout - problem solved. Does it stink for right now? Sure, but given the state of the MDX app, I think Disney has bigger issues to deal with.

As for FP in general, I noticed a few things:

1) Standby wait times were HIGH relative to the number of people in the standby queue. Toy Story Mania was posted as 80 minutes when not even half the indoor queue was full; a guest who got off around the time we did said she waited 90 minutes. I suspect that the ratio of standby to FP may have been lowered.

2) I saw many back-ups at the FastPass returns - much long pre-merge queues on the FP side (and guests remarking that the standby queue looked so much shorter). Post-merge, however, it seemed like they were were deliberately maintaining a shorter queue. At TSM, they didn't let the post-merge line back up on to the ascending stairs. At ToT, the lines in the boiler rooms seems much shorter/faster than I recall.

Also, at least at one attraction (I will not name), the CMs were collecting paper FPs long before the merge/FP+ mods. This could invite abuse: Show your paper FP to the CM at the FP return. Point to your MagicBand to the collecting CM. Tell the CM at the merge/FP+ point (if you leave your MB on or they notice it) that you had paper fastpasses that were already collected. Lather, rinse, repeat for an hour. What's silly about them doing this is that the paper FPs are much faster to validate/collect than the MBs. I don't see the point to collecting the paper FPs in advance of the merge. I think this contributes to the backups at the FP return point and at the merge/FP+ point. The backups don't matter too much at the merge point so long as the post-merge line is sufficient to allow efficient loading but at the entry point, there were substantial lines out into thoroughfares.

 

[Mary Anne]

I was part of the FP+ trial last week and I admit that we did double dip (actually triple) with FP+, room key AND annual pass. We also passed some of those paper fast passes along to guests enterering the parks as we were leaving and the paper fastpasses were still good.

Very interesting today, I received an e mail survey from Disney regarding the fast pass system. The specifically asked if we were able to get both fastpass+ and the regular fastpasses and did we use both. Another question was if just the fastpass+ 3 were enough or if we needed more. It seems to me that Disney KNEW people would double dip, wanted to know the ease of it and wanted to know how many fastpasses would truly be needed when it was officially rolled out. They also asked if we park hopped. This is a testing period.

For the record my gut feeling is 3 FP's are not enough; if it was me and I did tell them is that 5 for park #1 that you visit in a day and at least 2 or 3 in Park #2. Park hopping cost more; those that hop should get an extra opportunity to get more fast passes.

I also found the my disney experience app on an ipad worked the best then those on a laptop or phone.

 

[doconeill]

It's never been my theory that this was a glitch and I stated that as such. I stated that it was a programming change and done specifically to allow the MB testers to use whatever they wanted. Seems I was correct. The survey asked in multiple ways if the 3 FP limit was good enough or if you used KTTW to supplement or used them together in the same park, different parks, etc. The questions were worded in a way that they really wanted to trip you up and get you to click 3 is good enough. LOL

Right...but this thread was about being able to use a KTTW card AND a separate ticket, not a MagicBand.

What appears to be the "glitch" is that they are treated independently by the Fastpass system - i.e. I can get a Fastpass for Space Mountain with my KTTW card, and then get one with my AP...even though I can only enter the park with my AP, and getting with one doesn't result in me having to wait to get another FP with the other card.

In fact, weren't you one of the testers that said this was possible?

As you say in a later post, it was an "unintended consequence" of how they did it...basically, a glitch or bug.

I think if they DON'T fix it, it will be telling about the expected lifetime of the existing system.

 

[delmar411]

Right...but this thread was about being able to use a KTTW card AND a separate ticket, not a MagicBand.

What appears to be the "glitch" is that they are treated independently by the Fastpass system - i.e. I can get a Fastpass for Space Mountain with my KTTW card, and then get one with my AP...even though I can only enter the park with my AP, and getting with one doesn't result in me having to wait to get another FP with the other card.

In fact, weren't you one of the testers that said this was possible?

As you say in a later post, it was an "unintended consequence" of how they did it...basically, a glitch or bug.

I think if they DON'T fix it, it will be telling about the expected lifetime of the existing system.

Yes I said it was possible and it is. It is not a glitch. Unintended consequences do not equal glitches. Glitches are errors in programming. The system works as intended, they would just like us to not know how the system works.

Is there a way to see from the FPs pulled if the system differentiates between KTTW and a ticket? Because I have a lot of FP sitting around here to look at.

 

[doconeill]

Yes I said it was possible and it is. It is not a glitch. Unintended consequences do not equal glitches. Glitches are errors in programming. The system works as intended, they would just like us to not know how the system works.

I guess it depends on intent. I don't think they intended for multi-dipping in this way...but as said, it may be a consequence of taking a shortcut in the programming.

Is there a way to see from the FPs pulled if the system differentiates between KTTW and a ticket? Because I have a lot of FP sitting around here to look at.

At the bottom of a Fastpass is the ticket ID of the ticket used to pull it, along with the time it was pulled. However, I actually can't say for sure how it has looked since the RFID card introduction...I didn't think to look on my last trip.

 

[ArwenMarie]

I don't think there was intent for all of this double-dipping, but they obviously knew about it and didn't publicize it. To me it seems that the old FP system and the new FP are completely separate. So there was really no way to turn off the old system without turning it off for everyone. Which makes for a completely flawed test in terms of surveys IMO, but what's the difference at this point I guess.

 

[delmar411]

I guess it depends on intent. I don't think they intended for multi-dipping in this way...but as said, it may be a consequence of taking a shortcut in the programming.

At the bottom of a Fastpass is the ticket ID of the ticket used to pull it, along with the time it was pulled. However, I actually can't say for sure how it has looked since the RFID card introduction...I didn't think to look on my last trip.

Yes, I see what you are talking about and it is there still.

 

[WillAustin]

Today we were able to use FP+ with our magicbands and also get paper FPs with our APs, KTTW room keys, and our KTTW room keys from the previous part of our split stay.

 

[patrickpiteo]

Today we were able to use FP+ with our magicbands and also get paper FPs with our APs, KTTW room keys, and our KTTW room keys from the previous part of our split stay.

Congrats You hit the FP ++++++ jackpot LOL

 

[WillAustin]

Congrats You hit the FP ++++++ jackpot LOL

Definitely.

We had some issues with our magicbands so far but the rest has been great.

 

[brettb]

Yes I said it was possible and it is. It is not a glitch. Unintended consequences do not equal glitches. Glitches are errors in programming. The system works as intended, they would just like us to not know how the system works.

I'm not sure you can say that a system is working "as intended" when the business logic (or lack thereof) has "unintended consequences." I don't think this behavior was desired (or desirable). They may have made a conscious decision to implement the test this way because they lacked the resources (time, staff, money) to do it "right." Or they may have discovered the "unintended consequences" during testing and didn't choose (or have the resources) to correct this discovered bug. I'm not sure we can know the sequence of events. In their decision process, they may or may not have considered how much the internetz would get the word out. If they did, they may or may not have accurately assessed how much impact this would have on their testing. Disboards is a bit of a bubble They may very well have known this information would blow up here but that we really wouldn't mess up their numbers too badly. (I really have no idea.)

I don't think there was intent for all of this double-dipping, but they obviously knew about it and didn't publicize it. To me it seems that the old FP system and the new FP are completely separate. So there was really no way to turn off the old system without turning it off for everyone. Which makes for a completely flawed test in terms of surveys IMO, but what's the difference at this point I guess.

I don't think they had choice about FP/FP+ double dipping. Like I said in a previous post, 3 FP+s in a single park would have crippled my vacation (compared to past years with only FP.) If it was truly either-or, I would have used FP+ for my day of arrival to book evening FP+s and that likely would have been the end of it for me.

FP/FP double-dipping, as others have pointed out, is a different issue.

And as for a flawed test, it really depends on what they're testing. If they (thnk) they were testing the system as a whole as a reasonable facsimile of the final product including the app, standby-to-FP(+) ratios, capacity management, etc. you are correct that the test was flawed. As for capacity management, it really depends on how many guests exploited the FP/FP double-dipping; it may have been inconsequential.

But I think they can probably get a lot of good data about individual elements of the system:

Are people willing to wear the bands all day in hot, humid August? (I was surprised by how *not* uncomfortable it was.)

Are the POS readers working well at restaurant tables and cash registers? (Side note: Put two magnetic reader heads in the freaking credit card readers.) How about at the security shacks? (The guard at Yacht Club was very excited to scan my band to see my dinner reservation; a day or so later, the guard at the Contemporary told me they had just taken them all way right before we got there.)

How do the bands work at the FP returns? (They're slower than paper for parties of 2-3 or more.) At the merge points? (Slower there, too, but a back-up there doesn't necessarily affect load efficiency and doesn't create long lines into thoroughfares, something I saw a lot of last week.)

What's the utilization rate of FP+ reservations? Here, the crappy app gets in the way. We missed quite a few. Our plans changed and the app was dysfunctional to the point that we couldn't reschedule on the go. As the tests get larger, they may be able to determine reasonable "overbooking" levels.

Do guests like booking in advance? 30 or 60 days in advance? (I don't - a week or so would probably be my preference.)

Do more people do room charges when they have a band than they do with only a KTTW card? Do people using bands spend more than people using KTTW cards or other forms of payment?

Perhaps my *favorite* use of the band was to open the gate at AKL. It beats digging for my KTTW card from my back pocket. Most of the time I had to remove the band to reach the reader, though. The bands are capable of being read from a distance; ideally the gate readers would read a band at 12-18 inches. And it would be fan-freaking-tastic if they would operate through a closed car window during a thunderstorm.

 

[doconeill]

Perhaps my *favorite* use of the band was to open the gate at AKL. It beats digging for my KTTW card from my back pocket. Most of the time I had to remove the band to reach the reader, though. The bands are capable of being read from a distance; ideally the gate readers would read a band at 12-18 inches. And it would be fan-freaking-tastic if they would operate through a closed car window during a thunderstorm.

Distance at which it can be read is a factor of the antenna configuration and the size/strength of the magnetic field at the reader. Most applications like this they don't make the field too strong, so it requires practically touching the reader.