Do people hold back kids in your town?

[castleview]

I also wanted to address castleview's "what's the rush" comment. It isn't that I'm in a rush. Kids when to school at 5 when I entered school 25 years ago, they did when my mom went to school 50+ years ago too. I'm not rushing, I'm on time. I can't imagine having my son home another year even putting him a 5 day a week preschool (which he goes to now). I do a lot of work in his classroom and I know those kids and there is only one (who will be 5 in July) that I think isn't ready yet there are several that are being held back for IMO silly reasons. These aren't kids who are special needs or have motor skills problems they are just being held back so they can get the upper hand which they wouldn't need if everyone was starting on time.

I know you're not rushing. I may be coming at it from a different perspective because of the Dec 31st cutoff date in CT. My outlook is that I wanted my kids to go at five, not four. And from what I've seen, all the kids that are held out here were born after September 1st and would have been four when they were eligible. I don't know anyone who has done it to gain an advantage.

 

[barkley]

I understand your thinking but starting school later is just going to mean that instead of kids being 7 when they start kindergarten they will be 9, they will still hold them back. The other thing to consider is that the human brain works a certain way and there are little time slots for certain types of learning to happen. If kids try some tasks too soon, like reading, they won't be able to do the task. If they try too late, they also won't be able to or will have great difficulty learning certain things. For as much as people think kids "learn" to read, they really don't. Their brains are finally capable of processing that type of information and they can read. They can develop that skill after by practicing but it doesn't matter what you do for a child, you can't "teach" them to read sooner then when their brain is ready. Now the real trick is that time slot is different for all kids.

Also, yes, a child may at 5 and 3 days before a cut off be ready at that time for kindergarten and great, send them. The problem is later in the schooling when all the people that kept their kids back and sent almost 7 year olds to that same kindergarten that your barely 5 year old is attending. Again, you end up with a 13 year old sitting next to a 15 year old and that is a HUGE difference.

i realy want to see where any valid educational theory has been published and proven that shows an individual won't be able to learn or will have greater difficulty in learning certain things by virtue of it being introduced later in life. there are some skills such as mastering a non native language that children are much more adept at doing but elementary learning skills and concepts are in no way less effectivly absorbed and applied if introduced later vs. sooner.

children DO need to be emotionaly, physicaly, and socialy "ready" to learn specific skills and concepts (Piaget-who if a child is NOT in a montessori school is the theoretical model underwhich they are being taught public school or private school wise-calls this "equilibration"-all 3 have to be in place
for effective learning of any task).
but to say a child is not going to learn or will have difficulty learning an educational (vs. physical) task or concept by virtue of delaying it...if they are not exposed to algebra in 5th grade they may be less experinced with it in junior high than a student introduced to it in 3rd but it does not lessen their capacity to achieve the same level of understanding and mastery of it ultimatly.

adults who have not learned (for non learning disability reasons) to read as children and are taught as adults can ultimatly achieve identical reading levels as those that began reading at age 5.

capacity and ability to learn is based on the individuals emotional, physical, social and intellectual capacity.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

I really don't get the big deal about having kids in a classroom that are within a couple years of each other. First, the classroom is a structured, monitored environment. Also, if you don't want your kids dating someone older and driving, etc - then address it as a parent - say no and explain why. They are mixed in with all these other ages at lunch, outside activities, etc - they don't exist in a bubble. Your kid isn't up to par with an older kid - address it and explain it to them that there is no need to feel bad about it- the other kid is simply older.

I purposely have my DD enrolled in outside activities where there are various ages - don't most of us - where is the harm? In one activity, grade and middle school kids meet and Jr. and Sr. High meet - in the end the 2 groups work together. It works incredibly well - the older kids are phenomenal with the younger ones - and everyone benefits. I seek out activities where there are groups of kids not just their age , outside their school district, etc. I think it is a bigger advantage than disadvantage.

Sure it presents some challenges in the school setting - but I don't see the potential disaster that others do?

 

[golfgal]

i realy want to see where any valid educational theory has been published and proven that shows an individual won't be able to learn or will have greater difficulty in learning certain things by virtue of it being introduced later in life. there are some skills such as mastering a non native language that children are much more adept at doing but elementary learning skills and concepts are in no way less effectivly absorbed and applied if introduced later vs. sooner.

children DO need to be emotionaly, physicaly, and socialy "ready" to learn specific skills and concepts (Piaget-who if a child is NOT in a montessori school is the theoretical model underwhich they are being taught public school or private school wise-calls this "equilibration"-all 3 have to be in place
for effective learning of any task).
but to say a child is not going to learn or will have difficulty learning an educational (vs. physical) task or concept by virtue of delaying it...if they are not exposed to algebra in 5th grade they may be less experinced with it in junior high than a student introduced to it in 3rd but it does not lessen their capacity to achieve the same level of understanding and mastery of it ultimatly.

adults who have not learned (for non learning disability reasons) to read as children and are taught as adults can ultimatly achieve identical reading levels as those that began reading at age 5.

capacity and ability to learn is based on the individuals emotional, physical, social and intellectual capacity.

You can look this up in pretty much every education textbook. Yes, SOME adults are able to learn to read later on in life and achieve mastery level, but not all and probably not most. They certainly can read enough to do well but they don't get to the level they WOULD have achieved had they started reading around the age of 6, give or take a year or so. Your algebra example is one where exposing them to it in 5th grade is ok, but you can't expect mastery of that then, their brains aren't typically ready for that. Try to teach a 40 year old algebra with no prior exposure and it will be more difficult, especially if they don't have the math foundation to support learning algebra. It isn't that they can't learn, it is that it will be more difficult for them to learn.

 

[RadioNate]

I know you're not rushing. I may be coming at it from a different perspective because of the Dec 31st cutoff date in CT. My outlook is that I wanted my kids to go at five, not four. And from what I've seen, all the kids that are held out here were born after September 1st and would have been four when they were eligible. I don't know anyone who has done it to gain an advantage.

I do agree that a Dec 31 cut of is too late and if I had a child that was going to be 5 after school started I would strongly consider holding them back.

Like I said before here the problem is kids being well over 6 before starting kindergarten. In DS's class there will be 2 girls who will turn 7 in Nov and Dec of the kindergarten year and several more that will turn 7 before the school year is up in June.

I wouldn't have such a problem if these were kids that were turning 6 shortly after the school year started but 7 seems way to old for kindergarten.

 

[mum4jenn]

I wish this would work in reverse as well. Our cutoff date is sept 1st and dd's birthday is Sept 6th. She is always the oldest in her class and lots of kids think she was held back. She was ready for school and I wish they would have made an exception since it was just 5 days. She is in gifted classes and has always been mature for her age.

 

[golfgal]

I really don't get the big deal about having kids in a classroom that are within a couple years of each other. First, the classroom is a structured, monitored environment. Also, if you don't want your kids dating someone older and driving, etc - then address it as a parent - say no and explain why. They are mixed in with all these other ages at lunch, outside activities, etc - they don't exist in a bubble. Your kid isn't up to par with an older kid - address it and explain it to them that there is no need to feel bad about it- the other kid is simply older.

I purposely have my DD enrolled in outside activities where there are various ages - don't most of us - where is the harm? In one activity, grade and middle school kids meet and Jr. and Sr. High meet - in the end the 2 groups work together. It works incredibly well - the older kids are phenomenal with the younger ones - and everyone benefits. I seek out activities where there are groups of kids not just their age , outside their school district, etc. I think it is a bigger advantage than disadvantage.

Sure it presents some challenges in the school setting - but I don't see the potential disaster that others do?

I agree that activities where kids of all ages mix have it's benefits but then you run into the SOCIAL issues. Would you let your 14 year old go out with 18 year olds on a regular basis? Ok, your 14 year old is the ONLY one not going on these. You say she can't go, she has no friends. Your 13 year old needs to be home by 9:00 on week nights but your 18 year old can stay out until 11:00 (or what ever times) do you let your 13 year old stay out with the 18 year old? An older child is generally more able to handle certain social situations and by exposing a younger child to that situation before they are able to handle it isn't a good thing.

Our cross country team practices 7-12th grade together. I think that is wonderful. The younger kids have some great role models in this program. I would NOT however let my 7th grader hang out with the 12th graders on a regular basis, outside of practice. You are just asking for trouble.

The same goes with my 5th graders hanging out on a regular basis with a 1st grader or whatever, they are just too far apart physically and mentally for that to be a good thing over time.

Hang out at a middle school some day and observe the 15 year old 8th graders with the 10 year old 5th graders and tell me that is a good thing.

 

[RadioNate]

I wish this would work in reverse as well. Our cutoff date is sept 1st and dd's birthday is Sept 6th. She is always the oldest in her class and lots of kids think she was held back. She was ready for school and I wish they would have made an exception since it was just 5 days. She is in gifted classes and has always been mature for her age.

They made an exception for my SIL who's birthday was 9/3. While we are night and day different she was stellar in school. She graduated HS with 2 years of college credit under her belt. She currently takes 19 credit hours in college (6 classes), works 3 jobs, has a boyfriend and active social life. While I need a nap thinking about all she does she is thriving.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

golfgal:

I don't follow you - in the classroom there would not be the ranges in age you are talking about - we are only talking about one to two years here.

As far as meeting in activities - no they wouldn't be doing social activities together at those age ranges (well, depends on the social activity - in the activity my DD does they do get together socially, but supervised by adults)- but they would have others their own age to do those things with - I don't get the comment about the 14 year old being left out?

Sorry not following your line of thought here and how it applies to the one to two year (maybe very rarely three) range that comes from holding kids back.

Sorry.

 

[daisyduck123]

My DD11 will graduate 8th grade middle school at the age of 12 next year.
I know she will be with much older kids in high school next year but that is something we will just have to face. I'm sure she'll be more than fine.

 

[Pam]

This post got weirded out - but I ws trying to quote, I believe, golfgal, about whether you would want your barely 14 yr. old DD to date someone sitting beside her in class who was already driving.

My response: My DH and I did not permit our barely 14 yr. old DD to date.

 

[barkley]

golfgal:

I don't follow you - in the classroom there would not be the ranges in age you are talking about - we are only talking about one to two years here.

As far as meeting in activities - no they wouldn't be doing social activities together at those age ranges (well, depends on the social activity - in the activity my DD does they do get together socially, but supervised by adults)- but they would have others their own age to do those things with - I don't get the comment about the 14 year old being left out?

Sorry not following your line of thought here and how it applies to the one to two year (maybe very rarely three) range that comes from holding kids back.

Sorry.

i as well can't follow on the learning theory-you used it to support not keeping kids back, not waiting till they are a bit older to start school-then when i question it you use the example of a 5th grader learning algebra vs. a 40 year old (adult learning and childhood learning are completly different and can't be used to compare with a 1 or 2 year delay in concept introduction).

Not to argue here. don't want to get into a debate.

my question is WHERE DO THOSE OF YOU LIVE WHERE IT IS ROUTINE FOR A CHILD TO WAIT UNTIL AGE 7 TO ENTER KINDERGARTEN? (it seems to be the overwhelming taboo in this thread).

all states in the u.s. are subject to federal department of education regulations-and the law is that a child age six MUST ATTEND SCHOOL-in absence of school attendance or verification of approved and sanctioned homeschooling the child/parent is a mandatory referal to social services. in california a parent failing to send a 6 year old to school is subject to prosecution for child neglect (and oversight by child welfare to ensure enrollment and attendance) until such order is court vacated.

if you are seeing kids held back until age 7 for kindergarten ASK YOUR SCHOOLS AND SOCIAL SERVICE AGENCIES WHY THEY ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Some do that here.

Compulsory age is not until when the student turns 6 by September 1st. So while Kindergarten is offered and the traditional age is 5...a parent can get away with holding back there start so that they will be more mature when they start school and perhaps do better academically.

YMMV depending on the state. Some states compulsory age is 5--so unless the child is held back, they cannot legally choose to do this.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

all states in the u.s. are subject to federal department of education regulations-and the law is that a child age six MUST ATTEND SCHOOL-in absence of school attendance or verification of approved and sanctioned homeschooling the child/parent is a mandatory referal to social services. in california a parent failing to send a 6 year old to school is subject to prosecution for child neglect (and oversight by child welfare to ensure enrollment and attendance) until such order is court vacated.

if you are seeing kids held back until age 7 for kindergarten ASK YOUR SCHOOLS AND SOCIAL SERVICE AGENCIES WHY THEY ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW.

Techincally this is not 100% accurate. Some states can and do mandate by age 5 kids must attend school.

And the ages/cutoff dates vary by state. So in one state--you could be violating the law, but if you lived in another state, you would not. And then if you transfer states--you usually stay on the same trajectory as usually it is difficult to just skip a grade.

Example:

In my state the cutoff is Sep 1st.


In Florida--K is not required--but the school will not allow a student to go straight into 1st grade if they don't have the appropriate skills.

So if your child turns 6 on September 2nd or later--legally, they do not yet have to be in school and legally, you could wait until the following year before enrolling them in school.

But generally, if you are going the traditional education route---a 7yo, absent any limitations that make it necessary, should not be in Kindergarten.

 

[RadioNate]

Because I brought up the 7 year olds I will clarify. DS has 2 girls in his preschool class. One turned 6 in Nov 05 the other in Dec 05. I have both party invitations that say 6th birthday. Both these girls were 5 at the 9/1 cut off date. They will be 6 at next years 9/1 cut off date and when they enter kindergarten next Aug. They will turn 7, approximately 3 months into their kindergarten year. Whereas my DS will turn 6 in May of his kindergarten year so for 5 months there will be a 2 year age difference.

 

[4greatboys]

if you are seeing kids held back until age 7 for kindergarten ASK YOUR SCHOOLS AND SOCIAL SERVICE AGENCIES WHY THEY ARE NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW.

In Texas children are not required to go to school until the age of 7.



I am one who is holding my kids back. I had a 1 ds Who has a birthday Sept 2, our cutoff date he is Sept 1. He has done very well in school and I feel the extra year of maturity helped him quite a bit
Next ds is a May baby. He went to preschool and started K at 5. He did great that year. But the next year you could definately see the maturity issues. School has been more of a struggle for him. Not totally due to when he started but being a young 5 I dont think helped the issue.

Last 2 sons are 5 (feb b-day) and 3 (April birthday). Both will go to preschool and start K at 6.

 

[jodifla]

Florida has the Sept. 1 cutoff date, and my friends whose boys had summer birthdays sent them to kindergarten on time. Last year they were in 2nd grade, and had to be held back. They were OK academically, but too far behind socially.

My son has a Dec. 1 birthday, which is the cutoff date for Michigan, where we are now. I think 4 is too young for kindergarten, so we'll send him to a junior kindergarten next year.

 

[disneymom3]

my question is all states in the u.s. are subject to federal department of education regulations-and the law is that a child age six MUST ATTEND SCHOOL-in absence of school attendance or verification of approved and sanctioned homeschooling the child/parent is a mandatory referal to social services. in california a parent failing to send a 6 year old to school is subject to prosecution for child neglect (and oversight by child welfare to ensure enrollment and attendance) until such order is court vacated..

OT first but, I am quite sure that mandatory attendance laws are set by the individual state not be federal law as you will note that the vast majority of educational laws are at the state level. MN mandatory attendance is 7 to 16.

Golfgal, it is quite common here too--in another area of MN--to hold kids back for quite awhile. I don't really get it either especially as it really doesn't seem to be based on the particular child's maturity level nearly as much as becuase it is becoming "accepted" practice. I can see those summer birthdays for some kids, but the ones who are so much older, it seems odd.

 

[Bichon Barb]

Just a thought--if everyone followed their district's rules and put their children in k-garten when they were supposed to, instead of trying to give their children an advantage or head start or whatever you want to call it, we wouldn't have these age and maturity discrepancies. (Excluding kids with physical and psychological issues of course.)

 

[RadioNate]

Just a thought--if everyone followed their district's rules and put their children in k-garten when they were supposed to, instead of trying to give their children an advantage or head start or whatever you want to call it, we wouldn't have these age and maturity discrepancies. (Excluding kids with physical and psychological issues of course.)

Ok you pretty much you said what I've been strugging to say in 9 posts in like what 3 lines?