Do people hold back kids in your town?

[RadioNate]

Talk to the teachers in middle school and high school. You might be surprised at the difference in opinion.

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My mom's best friend is a Jr high teacher. I've talked to her pleanty as well as all my mom's teachers friends (my mom was a teacher for 34 years) and they all say send him 'on time.'

I just don't know why people can't do what they are supposed to do. If everyone wasn't so wrapped up in giving their kid an advantage over the other kids we wouldn't be in the situation.

I get that SOME kids need more time. I think my DS may need more time. But I think he may need more time because every one else is holding their kids back. He's fine with his peers but since everyone wants the advantage they are holding their kids back now my kid is a year younger and not keeping up socially.

As for Jr high teachers. Yep I talk to them. I hear about the Jr high kids they have driving, having sex, pregnant....

I can't believe that golfgal and I are the only ones that I terribly frustrated by this pratice. (ETA: and Deb and MareDVC and April and Lindsay )

I have a smart kid, who's 4, he reads, does basic math and socially on par with kids that are turing 5 before the deadline this year. Of course 1/2 his class is already 5 and will be turing 6 before the deadline. Is he socially behind those kids, a bit yes.

So I can hold him back to the tune of $500 a month for part time preschool then he will be 'ahead' or I can send him on time and risk life long educational and social damage. Oh great.

No one wants their kid to be the youngest but it has to happen to someone.

If a kid truely needs to be held back, has special needs, misses the cut off...fine but I see the kids in DS's class there is only one who I think probablly really needed to be held back but 1/2 the class is staying back for the 'advantage' of being the oldest.

I had a June birthday, graduated HS at 17, I was fine. Now I started school when there was a Dec 1 cut off so there were pleanty of kids younger than me but even so my best friend has a late Aug birthday and she always excelled in school. My SIL has an early Sept birthday and her parents petitioned to get her in when she was 4 and she's been fine.

If everyone just sent their kids on time we wouldn't be worried about having kids a year older in their classes. Do I really want my DS around 15 year old Jr high kids when he's 13 of course not but if those kids were sent on time I wouldn't have this problem.

Bottom like, ocassionally there are legitimate cases for holding a child back a year but I think the majority are ready kids who's parents delay so they will have a perceived advantage over the rest of the class.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

I am just going by what I read in the paper in this am - that the current is 6 by Dec - and that the State is going to move it up to 5 by Sept 1. Is it possible that like the all day K - it has not been a State wide mandate up to now, and districts were allowed to set their own - and now there will be a State wide mandate for required start at 5 for by Sept 1 - as well as a State wife mandate for all day K? And it depends on just how they plan to handle the application and acceptance for the waiver - on just how much harder it will be - I only know it was entirely up to me to hold mine back - I did not have to ask anyone's permission.

For the record, I - as well as I am sure many - held mine back so that she would be more mature and ready (at every step, she would be one year older, have one more year of experieince) - to do her PERSONAL best - not to have any advantage over any one else - I really didn't even perceive it that way - there are too many variables - a kid's innate ability, parental involvement - chronological age is only one and I don't think that alone gives a kid advantage over others in the class. Nothing personal against any individual who has made the statement - but why the assumption that the motives must be selfish/negative just because you don't happen to feel the same way? That would be like me saying that parents that push their kids in too soon do so for financial gain (one less year of daycare) or for convenience (get them out and have someone else watch them all day)- I have seen it done, but would never over generalize that it is everyone's motivation?

AS for the problems of sex, etc - that has little to do with a kid being a ONLY a year older - and everything to do with their upbringing - I can assure everyone in my DD's class this will not be an issue. The fact that she is a little older does not mean she will be bringing these issues into the classroom to her younger classmates - we have brought her up better than that! I just don't feel the age isssue is that big a deal here - we are seeing these things earlier in general due to other influences!

I guess teachers are as divided as parents over this issue - we have discussed it with four teachers and the consensus was they wished more people made the choice we did.

I am glad it was my call to make - I just worry about the new move to make parents apply for a waiver - again, it will be up to how they handle it - but as with most things, I am afraid this will become a "power trip" issue of administrators over parents - seen way too much of that.

 

[Deb in IA]

I can't believe that golfgal and I are the only ones that I terribly frustrated by this pratice.

Did you read my posts, and MareDVC's? I think you'll find that we also agree.

 

[jim and meesie]

Well heres the deal, we've looked into this from many perspectives. Our oldest son (18) is now a freshman at an Ivy League college. He was the 5th youngest in his class (at an elite private boys school) at graduation last June. Although he was always big for his age and good at sports (he received numerous academic and sports awards) he wasn't outstanding enough at sports to get a Division 1 scholarship or even be a recruited athlete at a top school. Fortunately he is very bright (1600s on his SATS) so he was able to go to a great college on brains alone. Now my crazy husband (who was a college athlete) keeps saying "If he accomplished what he did with a year (or more) disadvantage over the other kids just think how amazing he would be with another year of high school sports under his belt!" I do tell him to be thankful how lucky he is but men will be boys! Our younger son (10) is also on the young end for his class. Since he is also a pretty good athlete, and a good student my husband thinks he should repeat the year before he goes to the same private school that his brother went to (go to 7th grade in public school and then repeat 7th grade in private school). This has become a fairly common trend at these "elite" private schools. My older son's graduating class had students graduating who were almost 20 as well as kids who were still 16 so there was quite an age span. Most (more than half) of the class below my son was older than him. My sons freshman roommate also did this and he's two years older than my son. In terms of maturity level they seem to be about the same level.

 

[castleview]

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My mom's best friend is a Jr high teacher. I've talked to her pleanty as well as all my mom's teachers friends (my mom was a teacher for 34 years) and they all say send him 'on time.'.

That's so funny. Because I'm the only one in my family who is not a teacher and they all said "Hold them back".

However, the cutoff in their state is December 31st and they think it should be September 1st. Their opinion is basically that every kid should be five when they start Kindergarten.

Intelligence has nothing to do with whether a child is ready or not . If a child doesn't have have the maturity to focus, how can he use his intelligence (3rd grade teacher step-mom's quote, not mine)

If the cutoff date here was September, I probably would not have held my daughters out. But having an advantage over other kids is not my reason. I talked to several teachers (in and out of my family) and they all said "It can hurt to send them, but rarely does it hurt to keep them out."

As far as the money for preschool, that's the reason my BIL sent their November born daughter to school as soon as they could. They are having some regrets about it now.

 

[RadioNate]

That's so funny. Because I'm the only one in my family who is not a teacher and they all said "Hold them back".

However, the cutoff in their state is December 31st and they think it should be September 1st. Their opinion is basically that every kid should be five when they start Kindergarten.

Our cut off date is Sept 1.

I am ok with not sending kids who are 4 if the cut off is 12/31 but in DS class we have 2 kids who are already 6 who will be going to kindergarten next fall. Both these kids will turn 7 in Nov or Dec of their kindergarten year. DS turns 5 the first week in May and will have kids turning 6 before he is 5.

It is just crazy to me.

He does well in school, his teachers all comment that he is the best behavied child they have. He's always compaining and commenting on how wild the other kids are and how they always misbehave.

The ONLY reason I struggle with holding him back is that I don't want him to be a 13 year old 8th grader with 15 year olds in his class or a 17 year old senior with 19 year olds. But at the same time I don't want him learning to drive his freshman year of HS or turing 18 at as a junior.

 

[castleview]

Our cut off date is Sept 1.

I am ok with not sending kids who are 4 if the cut off is 12/31 but in DS class we have 2 kids who are already 6 who will be going to kindergarten next fall. Both these kids will turn 7 in Nov or Dec of their kindergarten year. DS turns 5 the first week in May and will have kids turning 6 before he is 5.

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I'll give you that one. Seven in kindergarten when your kid is five sounds rough. There is one 7 year old in DDs kindergarten class, but he has autism.

 

[disykat]

That would be like me saying that parents that push their kids in too soon do so for financial gain (one less year of daycare) or for convenience (get them out and have someone else watch them all day)- I have seen it done, but would never over generalize that it is everyone's motivation?

I think if you were talking about a parent who went against the districts age recommendation then you COULD say they PUSHED their child in too soon. Saying that about a parent who followed the age recommendation would not be valid. We are talking about parents who went against the district's age recommendation.

 

[Bichon Barb]

Our cutoff date is December 1st. My son's birthday is November 19th. He started kindergarten at 4 and didn't turn 5 until 2.5 months later. Guess what? He's doing just fine. He started out a little behind on the fine motor skills, but he soon caught up. I've read that by about 4th grade, all these birth dates don't matter--at least academically speaking.

We have two other boys in my neighborhood that were born within a week of my son. They both started a year later. Why? Because their fathers are heavily involved with athletics and wanted their sons to be "large for their grade".

It really bothers me that so many parents these days see raising kids as a competition. It's hard not to get sucked into it.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

disykat:

I think you missed my point: I was simply saying it is wrong for either side to over-generalize and assume a parent's motivations must be for the worst reasons - just because they don't support their stance.

 

[barkley]

seems to be just the opposite in california. all the parents seem to want to "fast track" their kids and get them going as young as possible. this is a total flip flop from when i and my sibs went to school (i graduated in '79) when it was recommended that those near the age cut off for kindergarten (and yes more in the case of boys) were advised to wait until the following school year (our graduating classes routinly had close to 19 yr. old grads).

when i taught in the 80's there was the begining of the parental push to get them going earlier so private schools started doing "pre-k" or "early kindergarten" classes which offered the identical curriculum to traditional kindergarten.

kindergarten curriculums have changed so much in recent years-they much more closely resemble what was traditionaly taught in 1st and even early 2nd in years prior (and in private schools it can get much more skewed). in california kindergarten is not a requirement, kids can register for 1st so long as they are 6. kindergarten in most school districts requires an entrance exam for placement (and as both a parent and a former educator i don't feel comfortable with kids getting pigeon-holed at that early an age).

i see it from both sides-i was a may birthday and started kindergarten at age 5 1/2 (california still has the december 2nd rule). i did well in school, always opted to go to summer school (public school educated-back when it was offered every summer) and met the requirements to graduate early in the first semester of my senior year. so i left high school and started college in what would have been the second semester of my senior year. no major problems. my husband on the other hand had started kindergarten at just shy of 5 (november bday) in the private school curriculum, went into public schools in 10th, found that they were teaching stuff he had learned a couple years earlier and opted to take the California High School Proficiency Test and enter college early. he in no way was ready for socialy and floundered and ultimatly did'nt go back to get his degree until he was in his early 30's.
i also encountered a good number of younger college students (16/17 yr olds) as i went back for continuing education. the majority of which were going to school, pulling good grades but in no way were ready to make decisions about what career path they wanted to pursue (and those that did found in their late 20's or so with 10 years in a career that they were not happy in it and ended up trying at that point to reenter college for the career they actualy wanted to pursue-many unable to, because that "fast track" mentality had them with a huge mortgage, several kids to support, credit card debt...).

i think you have to look at the individual child, the demand of the curriculum and the social structure of the schools you anticipate they will be attending (a person can have a very "mature" 5 year old in their private preschool, but put them into a public school setting with a group of very "worldly wise" 5 year olds from a variety of econimic circumstances and that 5 year old can be totaly out of their element).

that said-my dd is 11 1/2 and in 5th grade (if she continues on track she will graduate about 2 months before she turns 19), ds is almost 9 and in 2nd (will graduate about 3 months following his 19th bday). dd did early kindergarten at age 5 and kindergarten at age 6 (i opted to do this because of the curriculum changes in our private schools-i did'nt want a stressed out 5 year old coming home with homework, multiplication tables...). she does realy well in her classes and gets along fine with a variety of age groups (her classroom is 3rd-8th grade). ds entered kindergarten at age 5 1/2 (spring birthday) and we opted this year to have him "repeat" 2nd grade (technicly he repeated so he could qualify to stay in with the younger kids-k-2nd- reinforce the basic skills, get some more maturity under his belt-but by mid way through the first semester he started to do 3rd grade work). our thinking is that if either get to the point where the curriculum is repetative of what they've already learned and they or a teacher express the need-we can have them advanced to another grade (i've never known a public or private school that would'nt advance a student who academicly presented the ability to do so). i am also open to the option that if either decides mid high school to take a proficiency exam and attend college, if they are socialy mature enough, to let them do so.

i think parents need to be realistic to their childs academic capabilities (and realistic to how that REALY falls in today's schools-a kid who reads in preschool is no big deal anymore, most california schools public/private have the expectation that the kids read coming in the door to kindergarten), look at how they interact with other kids (a couple of years older and younger) and then go with their "gut feeling". no teacher can truly determine if a younger kid will thrive in kindergarten (they are'nt home to see that kid melt down doing their preschool homework every nite) or if an "age appropriate" kid will do poorly (some in my experience have been kept back with younger kids and adjusted their maturity level accordingly-once in with kids their age or older they "rise to the occasion"). parents should in my opinion "go with their hearts".

 

[coliebird]

I do get sick of the comments of others who say they'd never send a child w/ a summer birthday on time. Why not? They meet the criteria and are smart enough to handle to work.

I have been trying to understand this as I read this thread, but I wonder the same thing. My daughter's birthday is July 1st. I have every intention of sending her to kindergarten when she turns 5. My nephew turned 5 a week before starting kindergarten. He is in 2nd grade now and is doing great in school and is no more/less mature than any other kid in his class.

 

[Skatermom23]

The ONLY reason I struggle with holding him back is that I don't want him to be a 13 year old 8th grader with 15 year olds in his class or a 17 year old senior with 19 year olds. But at the same time I don't want him learning to drive his freshman year of HS or turing 18 at as a junior.

Not to nit pit...but the majority of older kids will turn 19 AFTER graduation. Most of the held back kids have birthdays from June-December. So your young 17 year old may be with an 18 year old. The only 19 year olds will be those rare situations of Spring birthdays and it has been my observation that there are usually good reasons, that may be none of our business, for that situation...

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

barkley:

well said! It really is about the individual child - and the parents determination - along with input from the school/teacher - about what is best for that child!

 

[disykat]

disykat:

I think you missed my point: I was simply saying it is wrong for either side to over-generalize and assume a parent's motivations must be for the worst reasons - just because they don't support their stance.

And I think you missed mine. You can't say a child was pushed OR held back if the district age guidelines were followed. You might have a valid point if they weren't. No matter what your choices if you go against the norm, sometimes your motivations will be questioned. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing because hopefully if you've gone against guidelines you have good reasons for doing so.

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

I WASN'T making any judgement calls on "pushing" or "going against guidelines" or getting into any of that - AGAIN, ALL I was saying people shouldn't ascribe negative motivation to others just because they do not agree with their position.....The "pushing" part was only to show that it would be just as wrong of me to make those assumptions of people on the "other side of the fence" ...please just take it as it is meant?


ah, never mind.....

 

[padams]

It's common in the private schools in Atlanta for kids, especially boys, to be held back. Everyone I know has done it to give their kids an advantage in academics and sports. The cutoff date is Sept. 1. I know parents with kids with Feb. birthdays trying to hold their kids back.

My 4th grader DS has a Dec. birthday and is the 4th youngest in his class. The youngest child in the class turned 10 last week. Of the 18 kids in his class, 2/3 have been held back. My younger son has an Oct. bday (one month after the cutoff date!!) and is the 2nd youngest in his class!

It's frustrating for me as a parent to have my children compared academically and athletically to children who should be in the grade ahead.

When I was a child, it was humiliating to be held back. It was a sign of failure. Now, it's considered a good thing. I can't imagine telling my child that he isn't smart enough to go to kindergarten on time, or that he needs to repeat a grade. What message does it send a child to hold them back?

 

[PolyHereWeCome]

This is a big issue in our town-- it's almost like the age requirement has moved up because so many hold back.

My DS and DD (twins) have late August b-days and the cut-off is 12/31. Having twins, we knew they'd even both go, or both not go, and they went.

They began Kindergarten just shy of their 5th b-days. They were among the youngest in their K, 1st, 2nd, and now 3rd grade classes. Last year, our then 7 year old son went to two 9-year old birthday parties and a lot of 8-year old parties. He doesn't care, he just likes to hang out with the boys.

Here's the interesting part: When I look around the classroom at who's performing near the bottom or who's having trouble paying attention, it's still the same kids who were held back from pre-school. So maybe it was a good thing that they were held back, as they'd be having even more trouble? Or maybe they're just bigger?

Kids are very aware at this age of who's been held back or who is older for "whatever reason". It's not a status thing to be the biggest kid when everyone knows your b-day, quite the opposite.

 

[barkley]

It's common in the private schools in Atlanta for kids, especially boys, to be held back. Everyone I know has done it to give their kids an advantage in academics and sports. The cutoff date is Sept. 1. I know parents with kids with Feb. birthdays trying to hold their kids back.

My 4th grader DS has a Dec. birthday and is the 4th youngest in his class. The youngest child in the class turned 10 last week. Of the 18 kids in his class, 2/3 have been held back. My younger son has an Oct. bday (one month after the cutoff date!!) and is the 2nd youngest in his class!

It's frustrating for me as a parent to have my children compared academically and athletically to children who should be in the grade ahead.

When I was a child, it was humiliating to be held back. It was a sign of failure. Now, it's considered a good thing. I can't imagine telling my child that he isn't smart enough to go to kindergarten on time, or that he needs to repeat a grade. What message does it send a child to hold them back?

since our kids were never taught (and we never ascribed) to an individual achievement or "right to do" something just happening because they were a certain age they never had the mindset that their starting kindergarten at 6 vs. 5 was any type of issue.

i would question anyone that (for any circumstance) told a child the reason they would not attend kindergarten was because "he is'nt smart enough" or equating a negative conotation to being held back.

as parents and educators have become more aware and attuned to addressing an individual child's needs educationaly and emotionaly they have come to realize that an arbitrary age criteria for school attendance or grade assignment should never be put before the child's needs.

and, as a bit of history-kindergarten was originaly intended and developed as a program for ages 3-6, the goal being to "gently lead a young child over the threshhold of learning" with emphasis on the "mental, physical and spiritual" development of the child. children were to learn by doing a task, idealy through play. it was never intended to be the classroom desk, workbook, homework, achieve x skill by day x that is has become today. while some public schools offered kindergarten decades ago there was a big shift re. increased numbers of kids attending when women were called into the work force (ww2) and ultimatly it became more acceptable (or necessary) for women to work outside the home. EARLY preschool has now replaced what kindergarten set out to be.

 

[RadioNate]

Not to nit pit...but the majority of older kids will turn 19 AFTER graduation. Most of the held back kids have birthdays from June-December. So your young 17 year old may be with an 18 year old. The only 19 year olds will be those rare situations of Spring birthdays and it has been my observation that there are usually good reasons, that may be none of our business, for that situation...

What do you live in my subdivision and know these kids? Maybe in YOUR area June-Dec kids are the only ones being held back but in our area that isn't the case. My ds is in 4-year old preschool, he has 2 birthday party invited for Jan one is for a kid turning 5 and the other is turning 6. In his class he has several kids who will turn 6 BEFORE he turns 5 and are also going to kindergarden next year.

While I admit to be overly passionate about the subject you seem to be trying to justify it at any cost.