Do people hold back kids in your town?

[PolyHereWeCome]

To RadioNate (and OP golfgal): Our e-mails crossed, so you might not have seen mine. I completely agree with you.

This is a big issue in our town-- it's almost like the age requirement has moved up because so many hold back.

My DS and DD (twins) have late August b-days and the cut-off is 12/31. Having twins, we knew they'd even both go, or both not go, and they went.

They began Kindergarten just shy of their 5th b-days. They were among the youngest in their K, 1st, 2nd, and now 3rd grade classes. Last year, our then 7 year old son went to two 9-year old birthday parties and a lot of 8-year old parties. He doesn't care, he just likes to hang out with the boys.

Here's the interesting part: When I look around the classroom at who's performing near the bottom or who's having trouble paying attention, it's still the same kids who were held back from pre-school. So maybe it was a good thing that they were held back, as they'd be having even more trouble? Or maybe they're just bigger?

Kids are very aware at this age of who's been held back or who is older for "whatever reason". It's not a status thing to be the biggest kid when everyone knows your b-day, quite the opposite.

 

[Skatermom23]

While I admit to be overly passionate about the subject you seem to be trying to justify it at any cost.

Gosh, hopefully you have me confused with another poster...I only made this comment and the one about asking middle school teachers their opinions. I didn't realize that was trying to justify it at any cost.

 

[stinkerbell2009]

The cut-off date in MI is Dec. 1. Many people hold their boys back because of sports. It is common around here if your birthday is in July or later to wait until they turn 6. Some parents are even waiting if their child's birthday is earlier. DD14 has an April birthday and she is one of the youngest in he class. Many of the kids turned 15 this past summer and spring.

We had one friend who waited until her DD turned 6 because she was so tiny. Ali was petite and they didn't like the idea that she would be the littlest in class. I thought it was dumb , but my opinion. At 15 the girl is no long petite, she is about 50 pounds over weight and about 5'5"

OOPPS, just noticed DD is logged in and not me

 

[JVL1018]

I just can't imagine being 18 or 19 and still in high school!! I was 16 when I graduated and my daughter will be 17 when she graduates. I was already in college 2 years by 18! I can see WHY the 19 year old would have an "im' an adult" attitude...its because they ARE adults...I really shutter at the thought of my 13 year old high school freshman going to school with some adult that is 19 years old...just doesn't seem right! My daughter is on the young side, she is a Nov baby and the cut off was Dec. 1st. I had thought about holding her back due to her age but she was smart enough and mature enough to handle full day kindergarten. I made the right choice too since she is in 1st grade and still bored with the work..I can't imagine if I had made her wait another year. I can sort of understand people holding their kids back if they are really immature and have full day kindergarten but I just don't get the ones that hold them back from half days kindergarten..thats just like preschool hours that kids do at 3 years old.

It's not the hours- it's what is expected of them during those 3 hours.
Kindergarten now is what I used to do in first grade-they keep journals and do a lot more work than we ever did. A kid who is antsy and has a hard time being still yet and is in orecshool can pretty much wander around doing whatever-that won't fly in K.

As for not imagining being in HS at 18..half the kids in my class were 18--and no one was held back,the cutoff date was 12/31 so everyone born from Jan-June was already 18.

I was 17 as I had a Sept birthday, so I was 13 for the first month of 9th grade and I never had an issue, nor did anyone I know, with being in a school with 18 year olds.
Seniors never even bothered with freshman. LOL
My daughter will be 18 in her senior year and she started right on time-she just happens to have a bday right after the cutoff date.

 

[LadyTrampScamp&Angel]

I will admit to not having read the entire thread, went through the 1st couple of pages.

Both my kids will be one of the oldest kids in the class rather than the youngest. Cut off here is in Oct, DS has a Sept b-day and DD's is in July. I've never heard of holding a kid back because of sports!

DS and DD have gone through a great preschool. Had a parent teacher meeting with DS's 4 year old class teacher and we agreed that although he was great academically, he was not yet at the maturity level needed for K, along with he has some fine motor skills issues. Teacher referred me to a seminar given by a person associated with the Giselle Institute (child development). This woman actually said that in her opinion girls should be 5 by July 1st and boys should be 5 by March 1st as a guideline - or wait a year. Girls tend to be more mature at that age than boys but that would never happen in real life as I'm sure there'd be a lot of sex discrimination lawsuits! When it came time for same conference with DD's 4 year class teacher, she was more borderline but we waited a year with her too.

My Mom taught K for 25 years, said she never saw anything but benefits by waiting for a child to be a little older to start K, but saw many start too early to their detriment.

DS tested very highly on the IQ and achievement tests given in 2nd grade and is now in a class for the highly gifted, but he struggles with writing and his motor skills still - it's just starting to come around. I do believe he is perfectly placed though and we are very happy with out decisions. DD starts K this Fall.

 

[RadioNate]

Gosh, hopefully you have me confused with another poster...I only made this comment and the one about asking middle school teachers their opinions. I didn't realize that was trying to justify it at any cost.

No I have the right poster. Maybe I phrased it incorrectly. I don't know why you are jumping all over me about this. Suggesting I 'talk to middle school teachers' and nit picking my math when you've offered nothing else.

You aren't posting about why you did or didn't hold back your child or give any experience as a teacher you just keeping calling me out.

The only reason I could figure is that you were a little oversensitive about your reasons for holding back a child.

 

[JVL1018]

When I was a child, it was humiliating to be held back. It was a sign of failure. Now, it's considered a good thing. I can't imagine telling my child that he isn't smart enough to go to kindergarten on time, or that he needs to repeat a grade. What message does it send a child to hold them back?

My husband didn't tell me until we were dating for a year that he was left back in 1st grade--it still bothers him, he is still embarrassed about it..and he is a college educated successful person.
He was held back because of his maturity(summer birthday by the way)..and it is just that situation we want to avoid with our son.
So I think being held back is a lot different than not being sent on time.
it's not an automatic response however. If my DD was born in Sept. rather than Oct., she would have gone to K on time, she was ready last year even though she had to wiat until this year.

 

[barkley]

for those concerned about the age a kid will be in high school (and that they will be interacting with older kids who started later or were held back). what is your position on how grades should be broken up?

in california for years it was k-6, 7-9, 10-12. the schools lobbied to change it so that middle schools were available (5th or 6th-8th, and changing high schools to 9-12) but alot of parents did'nt support it for various reasons so k-6 is still the most common set-up.

my kids attend a private school that houses k-2 in one class and 3-8 in another-it's a very SMALL school with less than 30 in total attendance and a highly supervised (for appropriate behaviour and social interaction) situation. i am comfortable with the way it is handled in this cirucmstance. i would not be comfortable though, with sending my kids to a public school and having them interact at the elementary level with kids up to 8 years older. in high school i would hope (and pray) that they have the maturity to follow thier own instincts and not be led astray by a student a few years older.

that said-are you less comfortable with the concept of a 15 year old encountering an 18 or 19 year old in the odd campus social setting (i don't recall with the exception of choir or other electives much blending of different high school grades in the same classes) or your 5 year old interacting with regularity (recess, lunch, afterschool programs) with 11 and 12 year olds?

as a disclaimer-i know some states are addressing this by making 2 distinctions with elementary schools, breaking them into k-3 schools and 4-6th.

 

[castleview]

When I was a child, it was humiliating to be held back. It was a sign of failure. Now, it's considered a good thing. I can't imagine telling my child that he isn't smart enough to go to kindergarten on time, or that he needs to repeat a grade. What message does it send a child to hold them back?

As it's been stated throughout this thread: it's not about being smart enough. Plus my DD born September 3rd never asks why she was held out. Why would she when there are at least seven other kids in her clas who were held out for many reasons (moved from an area with a different cut off date, didn't want to deal w/ potentially being held back, maturity, or even - what's the rush?)

My neighbor was in my kindergarten class. The teacher passed him to first grade - although warning his mom that he'd probably do 1st grade twice. Well, he did...and he felt stupid for the rest of his schooling. His mom said if she could do it again, she just would have brought him home and let him played.

In our town, we have a readiness program for kids who aren't ready for kindergarten. I didn't do it because I thought my DD would probably be deemed "ready" for kindergarten. I was more worried about fourth or fifth grade. My sister was put in "on time" and had a terrible go of it when she reached the upper elementary years. Although she did well academically, it was not fun for her entering high school at 4'5".

Anyway - before kindergarten orientation, the readiness teacher always explains that just because a kid is recommended for the program, he is not automatically a bad student. The child will simply benefit from an extra year.

Sorry to ramble. I'm obviously just as passionate as RadioNate...only on the other side

 

[golfgal]

Our cutoff date is December 1st. My son's birthday is November 19th. He started kindergarten at 4 and didn't turn 5 until 2.5 months later. Guess what? He's doing just fine. He started out a little behind on the fine motor skills, but he soon caught up. I've read that by about 4th grade, all these birth dates don't matter--at least academically speaking.

We have two other boys in my neighborhood that were born within a week of my son. They both started a year later. Why? Because their fathers are heavily involved with athletics and wanted their sons to be "large for their grade".

It really bothers me that so many parents these days see raising kids as a competition. It's hard not to get sucked into it.

You are right, academically by 4th grade it doesn't matter but what DOES matter is in about 4th grade those kids that are 1-2 years older then what is "normal" for that grade tend to start maturing and this is where you see problems.

In our town the cut off is Sept 1st (or the first day of school-which makes more sense then a December cut off). There are kids that are turning 15 soon, in the next few weeks in the 8th grade, they are 1 to 1 1/2 years older then the "norm" for that grade. THAT is where the problems are. Academically it doesn't make much difference but socially it is HUGE and since middle school is all about being social it is a BIG deal.

To me it makes sense to hold back a child close to a cut off date, with in a month or so, but not 9 months before a cut off date. You can't tell me that the average child needs to be held back when their birthday is 9 months or even 4-5 months before a cut off date, which in our town is the NORM, not the exception. In DS's class at the Catholic school, there was 1 boy that had a birthday with in 2 months of DS, the rest of the boys were at least 9 months or so older, those kids had Sept/Oct/Nov/December birthdays, after that, they are holding their kids back. I just don't get it (well, I do, they want their child to be the next Michael Jordan which isn't happening).

 

[gina2000]

I think there are enormous advantages especially for younger children if they are held out of school an extra year. It's especially apparent in test scores (NCLB) and is only to a grammar school's benefit to have a more emotionally, physically and intellectually mature child in their classrooms. It's also to the child's benefit. Unfortunately, someone is always going to have to be the youngest and at the rate we are holding back children, kindergarteners may be 7 fairly soon. In many school districts in NJ, children are held back regardless of maturity.....if they are born past mid spring, they are held back. It skews everything. Maybe the answer is just to start grammar school later. At the rate these children are expected to produce, it's no wonder parents are looking to help them achieve. And holding them back is one solution that may help the child in the short term.

I believe the problem arises as these children mature at a time when their peers may be still prepuberty. And that may be a problem for all involved.....the older teenager may be ready for things that his/her peers have not even considered yet. It can become a messy mix for an administrator and teachers.

There's no easy solution to the problem. If a child is socially, intellectually or emotionally immature, it makes sense to hold them out an extra year. If your child seems immature next to the current crop of kindergarteners regardless of age, you should probably consider holding him/her out. It's a circle. And the age just keeps creeping up.

If you test soley on intellectual maturity, the physical maturity factor will probably rear its head as the children approach puberty. If you admit solely on age, intellectual maturity becomes the issue at the younger age. So it's a catch 22.

I'd always do what is best for my child, however. My guy was ready for school at 5 with a June birthday. Many are not. If he weren't, I would have never sent him. Sure, lots of kids will drive before him. Hopefully, that's the most difficult problem he has to encounter in his school years.

 

[golfgal]

I think there are enormous advantages especially for younger children if they are held out of school an extra year. It's especially apparent in test scores (NCLB) and is only to a grammar school's benefit to have a more emotionally, physically and intellectually mature child in their classrooms. It's also to the child's benefit. Unfortunately, someone is always going to have to be the youngest and at the rate we are holding back children, kindergarteners may be 7 fairly soon. In many school districts in NJ, children are held back regardless of maturity.....if they are born past mid spring, they are held back. It skews everything. Maybe the answer is just to start grammar school later. At the rate these children are expected to produce, it's no wonder parents are looking to help them achieve. And holding them back is one solution that may help the child in the short term.

I believe the problem arises as these children mature at a time when their peers may be still prepuberty. And that may be a problem for all involved.....the older teenager may be ready for things that his/her peers have not even considered yet. It can become a messy mix for an administrator and teachers.

There's no easy solution to the problem. If a child is socially, intellectually or emotionally immature, it makes sense to hold them out an extra year. If your child seems immature next to the current crop of kindergarteners regardless of age, you should probably consider holding him/her out. It's a circle. And the age just keeps creeping up.

If you test soley on intellectual maturity, the physical maturity factor will probably rear its head as the children approach puberty. If you admit solely on age, intellectual maturity becomes the issue at the younger age. So it's a catch 22.

I'd always do what is best for my child, however. My guy was ready for school at 5 with a June birthday. Many are not. If he weren't, I would have never sent him. Sure, lots of kids will drive before him. Hopefully, that's the most difficult problem he has to encounter in his school years.

I understand your thinking but starting school later is just going to mean that instead of kids being 7 when they start kindergarten they will be 9, they will still hold them back. The other thing to consider is that the human brain works a certain way and there are little time slots for certain types of learning to happen. If kids try some tasks too soon, like reading, they won't be able to do the task. If they try too late, they also won't be able to or will have great difficulty learning certain things. For as much as people think kids "learn" to read, they really don't. Their brains are finally capable of processing that type of information and they can read. They can develop that skill after by practicing but it doesn't matter what you do for a child, you can't "teach" them to read sooner then when their brain is ready. Now the real trick is that time slot is different for all kids.

Also, yes, a child may at 5 and 3 days before a cut off be ready at that time for kindergarten and great, send them. The problem is later in the schooling when all the people that kept their kids back and sent almost 7 year olds to that same kindergarten that your barely 5 year old is attending. Again, you end up with a 13 year old sitting next to a 15 year old and that is a HUGE difference.

 

[budbeerlady]

I didnt realize here by us in the Midwest small town do, most of the kids in DD (turned 5 in Oct) k class are 6!!!! It was actually said at parent teacher confrences that well, she is the youngest and it does show in her behaviour. I couldnt belive it, she is more mature when she is around cousins and friends who are 5. But if the kid is turning 7 in June that is a huge diff to compare to a newly 5yr old. I have no doubt she is fine for school but somethings like that I cannot fix.

 

[darrose]

As a parent who sent my children at within the school district cut off lines
I want to be a reassure those who choose not to hold to kids back its ok. My children are on the high honor rolls and do well on stanardized tests without the extra age advantage that more and more kids seem to need.
However, their pre-school, kindergarten, or first grade teachers never ever mentioned that either of my kids should be held back so I guess that means that the teachers thought that they were ready too.

 

[RadioNate]

(well, I do, they want their child to be the next Michael Jordan which isn't happening).

And Michael Jordan didn't even play HS basketball. Either did a lot of professional athletes.

I also have a very good friend who was a HS football star. Played in college and even lead his school to a Rose Bowl win...he wasn't even a 1 round NFL draft pick and has been cut from several teams. He now works for his dad's business.

I also wanted to address castleview's "what's the rush" comment. It isn't that I'm in a rush. Kids when to school at 5 when I entered school 25 years ago, they did when my mom went to school 50+ years ago too. I'm not rushing, I'm on time. I can't imagine having my son home another year even putting him a 5 day a week preschool (which he goes to now). I do a lot of work in his classroom and I know those kids and there is only one (who will be 5 in July) that I think isn't ready yet there are several that are being held back for IMO silly reasons. These aren't kids who are special needs or have motor skills problems they are just being held back so they can get the upper hand which they wouldn't need if everyone was starting on time.

 

[golfgal]

As a parent who sent my children at within the school district cut off lines
I want to be a reassure those who choose not to hold to kids back its ok. My children are on the high honor rolls and do well on stanardized tests without the extra age advantage that more and more kids seem to need.
However, their pre-school, kindergarten, or first grade teachers never ever mentioned that either of my kids should be held back so I guess that means that the teachers thought that they were ready too.

AGain, this isn't about academics. My son does fine in school, too. He is in all advanced classes, blah, blah, blah, this is about the MATURITY, physical and emotional, of having a 13 year old sitting next to a 15 year old. Would you want your DD who is barely 14 dating a kid, in her grade, that can DRIVE (which is what is going to happen in DS's class)?

 

[disykat]

Plus my DD born September 3rd never asks why she was

I've never met a child who was that close to the cutoff date wonder why they were kept out. The answer is obvious - they were close to the cutoff date. I don't think close to the cutoff date is an issue with anyone here. I grew up with a boy who was one day older than me, but in a grade younger. We never thought it was weird - because we were close to the cutoff date. Kid's know that is an issue. Because I was one of the youngest in the class I know more about that "cutoff date" than most - I could have told you the date easily by the time I was in 2nd grade and probably had the discussion once or twice a month through my entire school career. Kid's know these dates!

I have heard from kids whose birthdays are far from the cutoff date -"I'm supposed to be in 4th grade, but I'm in 3rd because my mom kept me out". They learn to answer those questions they start getting when they turn 7 in Kindergarten.

 

[golfgal]

And Michael Jordan didn't even play HS basketball. Either did a lot of professional athletes.

I also have a very good friend who was a HS football star. Played in college and even lead his school to a Rose Bowl win...he wasn't even a 1 round NFL draft pick and has been cut from several teams. He now works for his dad's business.

I also wanted to address castleview's "what's the rush" comment. It isn't that I'm in a rush. Kids when to school at 5 when I entered school 25 years ago, they did when my mom went to school 50+ years ago too. I'm not rushing, I'm on time. I can't imagine having my son home another year even putting him a 5 day a week preschool (which he goes to now). I do a lot of work in his classroom and I know those kids and there is only one (who will be 5 in July) that I think isn't ready yet there are several that are being held back for IMO silly reasons. These aren't kids who are special needs or have motor skills problems they are just being held back so they can get the upper hand which they wouldn't need if everyone was starting on time.

Well, I know plenty of kids in this town who's parents think they are going to be professional basketball, football, or what ever players (never mind the fact that there hasn't been a single boy in our town EVER that had gotten a Division 1 scholarship in ANYTHING--we have had several girl volleyball players go Division 1 and a couple girl basketball players-that is it).

 

[golfgal]

Another thing that I just thought of is when my kids get invited to birthday parties for classmates, I can't put Happy 10th Birthday or what ever year on the card because they may be 9 they might be 11, you just never know anymore.

 

[darrose]

No, but I cant stop people from holding back their children. I can only say that for my children not holding back was the right decision for us.
Also, golfgal, dont want to scare you, but my dd IS in classes with some guys who can drive. LOL