Disney World Buries Its Controversial $149 After Hours Experiment

[AdamEfimoff]

I just think they could off added it for magical hours . But that does not make money

 

[gdrj]

Ah, another angry opinion piece from someone who couldn't afford to attend. It's funny. The whole thing is speculative. Disney never revealed the capacity for this event, so no outsider (like the author) will never really know if this worked for Disney or not. We don't know why Disney created it (was it to explore what the market would bear, how to price MNSSHP, MVMCP, dip into the Orlando convention crowd?) No one really knows. What we do know from these boards is that the vast majority of those who went really enjoyed it and many people simply got angry because they couldn't afford to go. BTW, article author, ESPN is what is mostly influencing DIS stock price right now, not the parks.

My issue doesn't have to do with pricing, while I can afford it, I would choose not to. To me the bigger issue is what is lost to the guest who is already paying for their regular ticket. I am willing to pay and visit knowing that there are some nights that there are EMH's. Also on the nights that there are not EMH's that the last hour the park is open can be a good time to get on rides. When they have the After Hours days MK which might normally closed at 12 was closing at 11. Losing that hour can really impact crowd levels for rides, plus a few extra 1000 people (in theory), would be in the park making the end of night rides more crowded. Also to me the other issue is just a reduction in value in the product. Longer lines, more closed exhibits and rides, plus old and tired exhibits while at the same time grabbing every dollar possible. Ticket Price increases, AP's, TIW, Menu prices, drinks, parking, VIP Parking for an extra 20 bucks. When you combine all of that with staff reductions, more hotel service/housekeeping issues as well as lack of response (from personal experience), it gets to the point when enough is enough. The extra morning hour is for another thread. Bottom line for me is that after averaging 4 plus trips a year the past few years (we have been fortunate to do so), we have no immediate plans for a visit. Instead we have Key West Trip, a beach trip and currently looking at Caribbean trip or a cruise in the late Fall. Disney World has pushed me to use my disposable income elsewhere. I'm sure there will be plenty of others to pick up the slack and lost dollars from my trips. I don't expect Disney stock to drop on my account. Without knowing all the statistics (and anyone can turn stats to favor their position), I would think a frequent visitor who spends more time outside of the parks, shopping and dining on property, would be a guest that would be desirable.

Anyway its not just angry people who cant afford it complaining.

 

[AngiTN]

My issue doesn't have to do with pricing, while I can afford it, I would choose not to. To me the bigger issue is what is lost to the guest who is already paying for their regular ticket. I am willing to pay and visit knowing that there are some nights that there are EMH's. Also on the nights that there are not EMH's that the last hour the park is open can be a good time to get on rides. When they have the After Hours days MK which might normally closed at 12 was closing at 11. Losing that hour can really impact crowd levels for rides, plus a few extra 1000 people (in theory), would be in the park making the end of night rides more crowded. Also to me the other issue is just a reduction in value in the product. Longer lines, more closed exhibits and rides, plus old and tired exhibits while at the same time grabbing every dollar possible. Ticket Price increases, AP's, TIW, Menu prices, drinks, parking, VIP Parking for an extra 20 bucks. When you combine all of that with staff reductions, more hotel service/housekeeping issues as well as lack of response (from personal experience), it gets to the point when enough is enough. The extra morning hour is for another thread. Bottom line for me is that after averaging 4 plus trips a year the past few years (we have been fortunate to do so), we have no immediate plans for a visit. Instead we have Key West Trip, a beach trip and currently looking at Caribbean trip or a cruise in the late Fall. Disney World has pushed me to use my disposable income elsewhere. I'm sure there will be plenty of others to pick up the slack and lost dollars from my trips. I don't expect Disney stock to drop on my account. Without knowing all the statistics (and anyone can turn stats to favor their position), I would think a frequent visitor who spends more time outside of the parks, shopping and dining on property, would be a guest that would be desirable.

Anyway its not just angry people who cant afford it complaining.

MK was never scheduled to close at 12:00 on the nights they held DAH. Now, you may say they closed at 12:00 in past years on that date but you shouldn't say that an hour was taken away. The closing time for MK was 11:00 for those nights and that never changed. Just because you expected them to change the hours at some point doesn't mean they took anything away. Disney doesn't owe additional hours to anyone. I mentioned one other place do people complain when other businesses don't have hours to suit them? Do they write emails/letters, post that something has been taken away from them because Target closes at 10:00 instead of 11:00. Yeah, I know retail and theme parks are not the same type of business but they are allowed to set their hours as they see fit and just because they aren't how you (figurative you) see fit it doesn't mean something was taken away.

 

[cjparker0110]

Ah, another angry opinion piece from someone who couldn't afford to attend

I love how the assumption is that this person could not afford to go. Let's look at it from another point of view. The single day ticket price for the Magic Kingdom is over $100 for a full day. People complain about that price. People complain about the idea of surge pricing driving that price even higher. I'd say the vast majority of people who go to WDW go for more than one day (and may for several) driving the single day (all day long) price down to $60 or so. With that in mind I think the MAJORITY of people will see $150 for 3 hours to be a ripoff...especially when we can only guess at what the crowd capacity would be. And especially when free extra hours are available to resort guests already. If I were on a WDW vacation and had an extra $150 in my budget, I would allocate that money to souvenirs for the kids, or some extra snacks or something else. I would not pay for 3 more hours in park when my all day price was $60. Low crowd level? Great! High price? Nope.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

MK was never scheduled to close at 12:00 on the nights they held DAH. Now, you may say they closed at 12:00 in past years on that date but you shouldn't say that an hour was taken away. The closing time for MK was 11:00 for those nights and that never changed. Just because you expected them to change the hours at some point doesn't mean they took anything away. Disney doesn't owe additional hours to anyone. I mentioned one other place do people complain when other businesses don't have hours to suit them? Do they write emails/letters, post that something has been taken away from them because Target closes at 10:00 instead of 11:00. Yeah, I know retail and theme parks are not the same type of business but they are allowed to set their hours as they see fit and just because they aren't how you (figurative you) see fit it doesn't mean something was taken away.

With the exception of Epcot...park hours are adjusted with volumes and have been since day 1...

Why? More people in parks = long hours = more revenue from sales = more profits.

That is their model...by choice...it's not being "imposed" on them.

So...to say "they didn't technically "shorten" the hours" is a tad too Stockholm syndrome.

If MK attendance is high - it has been for 5 years - then it's too pro Disney to make that argument in May.

Now...if they want to charge for an after hours event in January...or September...after a 9 pm close - I don't have much of a problem with it.

If they pull it in May, June, October, March, the first two weeks of November - All times where things have gotten out of hand and they are operational flat footed of stressing upsells anyway- then no...I'm not gonna give them a "point" here.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I love how the assumption is that this person could not afford to go. Let's look at it from another point of view. The single day ticket price for the Magic Kingdom is over $100 for a full day. People complain about that price. People complain about the idea of surge pricing driving that price even higher. I'd say the vast majority of people who go to WDW go for more than one day (and may for several) driving the single day (all day long) price down to $60 or so. With that in mind I think the MAJORITY of people will see $150 for 3 hours to be a ripoff...especially when we can only guess at what the crowd capacity would be. And especially when free extra hours are available to resort guests already. If I were on a WDW vacation and had an extra $150 in my budget, I would allocate that money to souvenirs for the kids, or some extra snacks or something else. I would not pay for 3 more hours in park when my all day price was $60. Low crowd level? Great! High price? Nope.

You are completely on point here...

That comment you quoted was just a jackhole, pro-Disney, thinly veiled defense of a bad idea.

 

[Planogirl]

Bad idea? I admit that I might do this if it wasn't so costly. That is if it ever comes back. I could probably scrape together the total price but it doesn't seem worth it at that price.

 

[AngiTN]

With the exception of Epcot...park hours are adjusted with volumes and have been since day 1...

Why? More people in parks = long hours = more revenue from sales = more profits.

That is their model...by choice...it's not being "imposed" on them.

So...to say "they didn't technically "shorten" the hours" is a tad too Stockholm syndrome.

If MK attendance is high - it has been for 5 years - then it's too pro Disney to make that argument in May.

Now...if they want to charge for an after hours event in January...or September...after a 9 pm close - I don't have much of a problem with it.

If they pull it in May, June, October, March, the first two weeks of November - All times where things have gotten out of hand and they are operational flat footed of stressing upsells anyway- then no...I'm not gonna give them a "point" here.

Sorry, I'm not proDisney to the point I think they do no wrong. And I'm not even saying the DAH event was without it's faults. Nor do I believe some of the complaints about DAH aren't warranted.
But taking away hours is not one of them. Nothing was taken away. I repeat, HOURS WERE NOT CHANGED! Park was open the hours it was always scheduled to be open.
Nor do I subscribe to the opinion that Disney WOULD have extended the hours if it wasn't for DAH. If that is the case, why didn't they extend the hours on days without DAH?
I do not believe it is correct to assume they would have closed later. Just because they always did is not a valid reason.
They used to do a lot of things differently. They change procedures and plans all the time. Hours is just part of them.
Besides, one of the reasons people love late night hours (low crowds) is also a reason for them to reduce them. If Disney sees the attendance low then to them that says "we don't need these hours added"

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Bad idea? I admit that I might do this if it wasn't so costly. That is if it ever comes back. I could probably scrape together the total price but it doesn't seem worth it at that price.

I would imagine that the price point is the problem for them...

My guess is from an operational standpoint they wanted/were hoping that they could push it higher...not lower.

If they've been consistent on one thing the last ten years or so it's been this: trying to upcharge on existing stuff. More holiday parties, more takes on the safari ride to try to sell it at premium.

It's the "water from the rocks" approach of CMB. Higher price on Things you've seen and done.

It's not a bad idea from a numbers standpoint. Until it starts to bleed out and get noticed. There's an ever expensing list of upsell that may get to be bad taste if it continues.

People on places like this board narc it out in 2 seconds...it's obvious.

But what if the casual traveler starts paying attention to the price list? Like $8 water in the mini bar?

What if travel money starts to slow (already big signs of that...including last weekend)?

The backlash could eat up the profits/revenues they've been making.

Interesting times...indeed.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Sorry, I'm not proDisney to the point I think they do no wrong. And I'm not even saying the DAH event was without it's faults. Nor do I believe some of the complaints about DAH aren't warranted.
But taking away hours is not one of them. Nothing was taken away. I repeat, HOURS WERE NOT CHANGED! Park was open the hours it was always scheduled to be open.
Nor do I subscribe to the opinion that Disney WOULD have extended the hours if it wasn't for DAH. If that is the case, why didn't they extend the hours on days without DAH?
I do not believe it is correct to assume they would have closed later. Just because they always did is not a valid reason.
They used to do a lot of things differently. They change procedures and plans all the time. Hours is just part of them.
Besides, one of the reasons people love late night hours (low crowds) is also a reason for them to reduce them. If Disney sees the attendance low then to them that says "we don't need these hours added"

I'm not saying you're too "pro-Disney"...just perhaps on this point.

They manipulate the hours as they feel like it...so to say they didn't alter/take away hours is completely conjecture.

What I do know - from 45 years of history...is that higher crowds push hours out. Which means that if the crowds are at a "9"...which we see reported pretty much everyday and most of us around her have experienced...then 9-11 should be the standard day at MK until the crowds dictate less.

If it ain't broke...don't fix it. But here's what this upsell is really about: WDW is missing out on opportunities right now during a boom because they stopped the shovels and did nothing but cost analysis (on the aggregate) from 2001-2011. The tale of the tape. And Disney is wasting so much money overseas in 3 spots trying to reinvent Disneyland, WDW, and Tokyo to people who didn't watch Mickey Mouse club or sleeping beauty on VHS everyday when they were kids...so that is "broken" too.

They are trying to pull money out of the swamp to support the other things...they always have. But don't be obvious about it. It's such a dangerous tact to take longterm.

But the leadership doesnt have to care...there is no legacy now. When they walk out of the door...they leave it all behind. It did not use to be that way.

 

[Paula Sedley-Burke]

Maybe it didn't fail at all. Maybe Disney were testing something in MK that they wanted fewer guests for. They thought rather than get in CM they pay after park closes why not get guests to do it and charge them lol...

Seriously if they do bring it back why not sweeten the deal by adding free parking past 7 pm ( unless they already do this? ) . I think it shows they are willing to experiment with guest experiences , adjust if they don't get it right. I prefer they do this than stay static. We all like new stuff.

 

[Josh Hendy]

Disney is wasting so much money overseas in 3 spots trying to reinvent Disneyland, WDW, and Tokyo to people who didn't watch Mickey Mouse club or sleeping beauty on VHS everyday when they were kids...so that is "broken" too.

They are trying to pull money out of the swamp to support the other things...they always have. But don't be obvious about it. It's such a dangerous tact to take longterm.

Did you mean, wasting money on Shanghai, Paris and Tokyo for people who didn't grow up watching Sleeping Beauty?

That part I get. Even in Tokyo which is a huge success, the allegiance to Disney's so-called flagship properties is tenuous. The last podcast review I listened to described it as a packed park full of almost entirely adults whose main focus is stuffed toys.

But on the spreadsheets ... Asia is huge. Europe is huge and almost as wealthy as America. Florida is an ATM with no daily withdrawal limit. And hey ... you gotta spend.money (on non-Disney fans) to make money.

One thing I don't understand is why, when Europe and China are obvious economic basket cases in which the financial authorities will print and lend ANY amount of money to cover up the fact, Disney signed up to throw real, 'Merican US cash money at theme parks. Getting loans from local banks through Chinese and Eurozone subsidiaries should be like playing with house money. Though it would shave off some of the theoretical profit points.

I think that Disney's simple spreadsheet solutions are leading them astray. They should be cultivating strong gut feelings backed up by basic understanding of economics plus a realistic assessment of foreigners weak allegiance to the brand name.

If they were half as good at selling cautious prudence to shareholders as they are at spinning bad news after the fact, we wouldn't be in this jam.

 

[Planogirl]

I wonder if building too much overseas might not make WDW less of a destination for those foreign travelers? Europeans still seem to come to Florida but if they ever get Paris right would that slow down? The pool of visitors isn't infinite after all.

As for the upsells, is there any sign that Disney is doing any of this in any other parks? WDW feels like a cash cow and a lab experiment.

 

[gdrj]

MK was never scheduled to close at 12:00 on the nights they held DAH. Now, you may say they closed at 12:00 in past years on that date but you shouldn't say that an hour was taken away. The closing time for MK was 11:00 for those nights and that never changed. Just because you expected them to change the hours at some point doesn't mean they took anything away. Disney doesn't owe additional hours to anyone. I mentioned one other place do people complain when other businesses don't have hours to suit them? Do they write emails/letters, post that something has been taken away from them because Target closes at 10:00 instead of 11:00. Yeah, I know retail and theme parks are not the same type of business but they are allowed to set their hours as they see fit and just because they aren't how you (figurative you) see fit it doesn't mean something was taken away.

We will have to disagree. When I looked at it back when they first announced it. The park dates for the nights not having DAH were scheduled to close at midnight. The DAH nights were 11. I tend to think that if there was no DAH that the park would be open until 12. Yes its an assumption based on prior practices, and that the rest of the week had 12 AM closings. Now can and do companies change things of course. You are right Target is NOT the same since I do not pay admission to that, so that comparison is irrelevant. Now part of their strategy which you nor I have access to is that reducing hours in general may be a cost saving strategy. Also I don't think I said they owed additional hours to anyone. One thing for sure is that with DAH it does limit the ability to extend hours as they had done many times during busy days. You also say the hours never changed and were always scheduled for 11, unless you think WDW just randomly scheduled DAH I would think the publicly released hours of 11 PM was something that was planned with DAH in mind.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Did you mean, wasting money on Shanghai, Paris and Tokyo for people who didn't grow up watching Sleeping Beauty?

That part I get. Even in Tokyo which is a huge success, the allegiance to Disney's so-called flagship properties is tenuous. The last podcast review I listened to described it as a packed park full of almost entirely adults whose main focus is stuffed toys.

But on the spreadsheets ... Asia is huge. Europe is huge and almost as wealthy as America. Florida is an ATM with no daily withdrawal limit. And hey ... you gotta spend.money (on non-Disney fans) to make money.

One thing I don't understand is why, when Europe and China are obvious economic basket cases in which the financial authorities will print and lend ANY amount of money to cover up the fact, Disney signed up to throw real, 'Merican US cash money at theme parks. Getting loans from local banks through Chinese and Eurozone subsidiaries should be like playing with house money. Though it would shave off some of the theoretical profit points.

I think that Disney's simple spreadsheet solutions are leading them astray. They should be cultivating strong gut feelings backed up by basic understanding of economics plus a realistic assessment of foreigners weak allegiance to the brand name.

If they were half as good at selling cautious prudence to shareholders as they are at spinning bad news after the fact, we wouldn't be in this jam.

I actually mean Paris, mainland China, and Hong Kong...

But other than that..."yeah"

 

[OldsDr]

what I don't like is people saying that you don't like it because you can't afford it. I have a numbers matching 1970 Cutlass S W-31 4-speed, with a window sticker and build sheet to prove it is a factory original. I bet 99% or more people on this board could care less about my car and think anyone who bought it off me was out of their mind if they spent the money it would take to buy it off of me, even though most could afford it. The people who would buy my car love Oldsmobile as much as those who spend $150 for 1 person, or $450 for a family of three or $750 for a family of 5 for 3 hours at WDW love WDW. Afford has nothing to do with it, it has to do with perceived value. For my car, if I ever want to sell it I have to find a single person who wants it, in reality not that difficult, but I do not need to be profitable(I would be) WDW has to keep tens of thousands of people happy to be profitable, if a small % of people think they are being ripped off the WDW cash cow will die. WDW is accelerating towards a wall (and to quote Garth Brookes) not hitting the brakes and shifting gears. They need to go back to making profits by providing a superior product for a relatively reasonable price, not fleecing their customers.

 

[jade1]

what I don't like is people saying that you don't like it because you can't afford it. I have a numbers matching 1970 Cutlass S W-31 4-speed, with a window sticker and build sheet to prove it is a factory original. I bet 99% or more people on this board could care less about my car and think anyone who bought it off me was out of their mind if they spent the money it would take to buy it off of me, even though most could afford it. The people who would buy my car love Oldsmobile as much as those who spend $150 for 1 person, or $450 for a family of three or $750 for a family of 5 for 3 hours at WDW love WDW. Afford has nothing to do with it, it has to do with perceived value. For my car, if I ever want to sell it I have to find a single person who wants it, in reality not that difficult, but I do not need to be profitable(I would be) WDW has to keep tens of thousands of people happy to be profitable, if a small % of people think they are being ripped off the WDW cash cow will die. WDW is accelerating towards a wall (and to quote Garth Brookes) not hitting the brakes and shifting gears. They need to go back to making profits by providing a superior product for a relatively reasonable price, not fleecing their customers.

 

[Planogirl]

what I don't like is people saying that you don't like it because you can't afford it. I have a numbers matching 1970 Cutlass S W-31 4-speed, with a window sticker and build sheet to prove it is a factory original. I bet 99% or more people on this board could care less about my car and think anyone who bought it off me was out of their mind if they spent the money it would take to buy it off of me, even though most could afford it. The people who would buy my car love Oldsmobile as much as those who spend $150 for 1 person, or $450 for a family of three or $750 for a family of 5 for 3 hours at WDW love WDW. Afford has nothing to do with it, it has to do with perceived value. For my car, if I ever want to sell it I have to find a single person who wants it, in reality not that difficult, but I do not need to be profitable(I would be) WDW has to keep tens of thousands of people happy to be profitable, if a small % of people think they are being ripped off the WDW cash cow will die. WDW is accelerating towards a wall (and to quote Garth Brookes) not hitting the brakes and shifting gears. They need to go back to making profits by providing a superior product for a relatively reasonable price, not fleecing their customers.

I agree. And I like your car.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

what I don't like is people saying that you don't like it because you can't afford it. I have a numbers matching 1970 Cutlass S W-31 4-speed, with a window sticker and build sheet to prove it is a factory original. I bet 99% or more people on this board could care less about my car and think anyone who bought it off me was out of their mind if they spent the money it would take to buy it off of me, even though most could afford it. The people who would buy my car love Oldsmobile as much as those who spend $150 for 1 person, or $450 for a family of three or $750 for a family of 5 for 3 hours at WDW love WDW. Afford has nothing to do with it, it has to do with perceived value. For my car, if I ever want to sell it I have to find a single person who wants it, in reality not that difficult, but I do not need to be profitable(I would be) WDW has to keep tens of thousands of people happy to be profitable, if a small % of people think they are being ripped off the WDW cash cow will die. WDW is accelerating towards a wall (and to quote Garth Brookes) not hitting the brakes and shifting gears. They need to go back to making profits by providing a superior product for a relatively reasonable price, not fleecing their customers.

What are you looking to get out of the car?

MG

 

[ChipnDale79]

Has anyone kicked around the idea that even if they sold a couple thousands tickets for these things and if it was a "success", they were getting some pretty bad press for it?

Overall the perception of this could be bad for them also.