Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[Dean]

Don't mistake the moderator decision to limit discussion of this topic to one thread for less interest. This topic is being discussed on many boards and with much more negative impact than we see here. Another measure is just how much feedback Member Satisfaction has gotten. From what I understood, it has been considerable. And that's just the first wave of internet savvy members. When new planners hit mailboxes we'll see a better representation of member reaction.

As for the rest I still haven't seen how any of the point charge changes encourage any change in booking patterns OTHER than to have people downsize or drop days from their bookings. When you look at the charts you find that the totals have gone up in a disproportionate amount to what has gone down. By that I mean, any point savings you may have on a weekend does not begin to make up for the increased point costs of weekdays.

That's why I predict this particular change will prove to be an ill-conceived one. All it does is encourage larger point contract purchases and shorten the divide between newer and older resorts, particularly BLT. And that at the cost of disenfranchising existing members.

Now whether upper management will decide they need to adjust again in 2-3 years time, I expect depends more on how current sales are doing than current booking patterns.

Nothing to do with the limit of a single thread. My interpretation is that the group was yelling louder with the other issue. Worst case scenario would be a smaller group of people yelling louder this time but I don't even think that's the case. Regardless, it really doesn't matter because DVC had the right, the responsibility and will not go back. Unfortunately we don't have hard facts to compare before and after but I think eventually we will get enough secondary evidence to convince at least the open minded. If it increases the size of the average points purchase, that's a good think IMO. If you can't see how lower weekend points encourages people to stay those nights then I'm sorry, with that thinking may as well make all nights the same points because it wouldn't matter anyway.

 

[Anal Annie]

I'm surprised that so many people bought with such specifics in mind. One type of room, one set of dates. That's more of a traditional timeshare.

I get my annual allotment of points and tend to spend them like a kid in a candy store, not the same thing year in, year out.
Some years it's studios in the fall, some years it's 2 bedrooms in the winter, some years it's Concierge collection.

I did buy a small add on for 56 points at BCV thinking I think 4 nights in a studio, but even when I bought it, I completely recognized those numbers could change.

Lucky you for living within driving distance! Some of us have to factor in whether or not their kid should misss school for a day or two + the added cost of airfare for a family & parking at the airport etc. on top of the time involved to get there (an hours drive to the airport, 90 min. to check-in & get thru security, 2 hours flight if there are no delays etc.). I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to be able to have 3 or 4 long weekends down there but the airfare is just too cost prohibitive so we have to have a set plan every year. If I could just hop in the car & drive it in 3 hours and use 1/2 tank of gas to get there you'd better believe we'd go more often and "use our points like a kid in a candy store". We bought with the idea of being able to take at least 2 trips per year but counted on the total number of points required not changing, which some now have.

 

[DisneyWalker44]

Don't mistake the moderator decision to limit discussion of this topic to one thread for less interest. This topic is being discussed on many boards and with much more negative impact than we see here.

There are also boards where the issue is only getting modest discussion. Boards have personalities. On some, every change is a crisis. One thing we can do is look at the amount of interest a topic gets relative to other issues. This one seems to be getting about the same level of interest as the change to check-in-day-booking. Which is turning out to be a non-issue for most, a modest improvement for many, and a big disappointment for a few. Go back and read all the sky-is-falling posts in that thread. Keep those posts in mind when you read the sky-is-falling posts in this one.

Another measure is just how much feedback Member Satisfaction has gotten. From what I understood, it has been considerable.

MS got a ton of feedback on check-in-day too.

And that's just the first wave of internet savvy members. When new planners hit mailboxes we'll see a better representation of member reaction.

That's a key point. I suspect most folks don't know. Disney really buried the change in their news section.

As for the rest I still haven't seen how any of the point charge changes encourage any change in booking patterns OTHER than to have people downsize or drop days from their bookings.

First, keep in mind there are a lot of people who don't have a set booking pattern. When I first joined, we did weekday trips in off season. Then as kids got older, that was no longer possible. Now when plane tickets are cheap we squeeze in several long weekend trips. When plane tickets are expensive, we go for longer trips in the summer (ugh). The new charts won't change the way I vacation. But I will now have extra points - which means more trips or inviting more folks on trips.

When you look at the charts you find that the totals have gone up in a disproportionate amount to what has gone down. By that I mean, any point savings you may have on a weekend does not begin to make up for the increased point costs of weekdays.

This is simply not true. People like myself who do long weekends are seeing meaningful decreases.

 

[TisBit]

Lucky you for living within driving distance! Some of us have to factor in whether or not their kid should misss school for a day or two + the added cost of airfare for a family & parking at the airport etc. on top of the time involved to get there (an hours drive to the airport, 90 min. to check-in & get thru security, 2 hours flight if there are no delays etc.). I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to be able to have 3 or 4 long weekends down there but the airfare is just too cost prohibitive so we have to have a set plan every year. If I could just hop in the car & drive it in 3 hours and use 1/2 tank of gas to get there you'd better believe we'd go more often and "use our points like a kid in a candy store". We bought with the idea of being able to take at least 2 trips per year but counted on the total number of points required not changing, which some now have.

I think most people are in that position, but I too didn't buy my points with a specific plan in mind. We alternate our trips every year, sometimes in the summer, sometimes in the fall or spring. We weigh our options when planning a trip. I don't go to WDW every vacation, so I am not a large points owner, but I will continue to book what I can when I can.

We have friends that have larger contracts that will go several times a year, even with all the same hurdles as you. I would never buy anything with that specific of point totals, just because I know my vacation habits will change over 50 years, even if the points don't.

 

[Capn Dave]

I know their books probably get audited and I understand the total points at a resort per year is not supposed to change no matter how the points get re-allocated. I believe Webmaster Doc once posted a nice chart on the number and types of accomodations at each resort, and it might be possible to roughly figure out the total points at a resort - but does anyone actually know what OKW total points are? Does everyone on these boards just assume Disney is actually adhering to the statement in the POS? If they were not how would owners even know?

I brought this same point up on this board before. I have not heard a satisfactory response as yet.

Is a total point chart readily available to members for each resort?

I wish/hope that Disney would publish this composite chart each time they reallocate points. Not only because we would like to check on their calculations, although I am sure they are required by law to keep total point allocations per resort the same, but just to make it simplier to see where the point changes did occur. We then could make more informed decisions on where/when to use our points.

 

[Dean]

When you look at the charts you find that the totals have gone up in a disproportionate amount to what has gone down. By that I mean, any point savings you may have on a weekend does not begin to make up for the increased point costs of weekdays.

As you know, I've looked at the charts. The points even out for the year. Some things have gone up and others have gone down. For the example you quote, the 2 BR lockoff and 1 BR portion went down as did many other options. While they did not go down as much as the studio went up, other things did. Plus I don't think that the limitations in the POS apply to the individual components of a lockoff. The way I read it they could have increased that unit alone and made absolutely no compensatory changes and still be within the letter of the Fl statutes and POS.

 

[DisneyWalker44]

I brought this same point up on this board before. I have not heard a satisfactory response as yet.

Is a total point chart readily available to members for each resort?

I wish/hope that Disney would publish this composite chart each time they reallocate points. Not only because we would like to check on their calculations, although I am sure they are required by law to keep total point allocations per resort the same, but just to make it simplier to see where the point changes did occur. We then could make more informed decisions on where/when to use our points.

The problem is that the total point cost allocations do change from year to year. Some years have more/less weekends than others. And even seasons can have more/less weekends in some years than in others. So there is no one, single fixed number of points.

Buried deep in this thread are some calculations. The total number of points is within about 0.5% between the two charts, though the exact difference depends upon which year and resort you look at.

 

[Dean]

I brought this same point up on this board before. I have not heard a satisfactory response as yet.

Is a total point chart readily available to members for each resort?

I wish/hope that Disney would publish this composite chart each time they reallocate points. Not only because we would like to check on their calculations, although I am sure they are required by law to keep total point allocations per resort the same, but just to make it simplier to see where the point changes did occur. We then could make more informed decisions on where/when to use our points.

It's not that difficult to do. You take the number of each room type, ignoring lockoff components, and figure out how many weekdays and weekends are in each season. Then it's a matter of some fairly simple math to figure out how many points it takes to book an entire resort for the year. You have to make a choice of which "Base Year" to use and you'd avoid leap year as the POS states it's taken from a 365 day "Base Year". I used 1992 since that's likely the base year used for OKW and it's unlikely they'd use a different one for other resorts. I got 14,074,776 points with the old points charts and 14,075,811 using the new points charts. A difference of 1035 points for the entire year or less than 0.01% difference. The variance if you chose a different base year is actually far more than is that difference for reasons that DW pointed out above. Some will say but "it's not a zero difference" and that is true but it would more than satisfy any reasonable test thrown at DVC.

DVC is not going to publish this type of data. They are smart enough to know to only give what's necessary and not lead fuel to anyone's fire. Much like explaining rules to a teenage where you just give them points to argue. I do think they would have been well served to provide a very cursory summary of occupancy info related to this issue but I do realize that any data they provide gives competitors a piece of info they can use as well.

 

[Disney MAINEiac]

as a member who has to travel from a far distance I have complained in the past that weekend points were too high. If we wanted to do a get away for a long holiday weekend the high weekend points were prohibitive. perhaps the realignment will allow us more than one visit per year (say one long family trip and a shorter adults only get away). the way we travel and use our points I just don't see this as a big deal frankly

 

[Capn Dave]

as a member who has to travel from a far distance I have complained in the past that weekend points were too high. If we wanted to do a get away for a long holiday weekend the high weekend points were prohibitive. perhaps the realignment will allow us more than one visit per year (say one long family trip and a shorter adults only get away). the way we travel and use our points I just don't see this as a big deal frankly

"the way we travel and use our points I just don't see this as a big deal frankly".

HUH ???? This is the whole "point", no pun intended, of using points and the reallocation of same.

 

[bcrook]

But Joy did mention that they were just as booked on weekends as weekdays so she dismissed the idea that this point reallocation was done solely to encourage weekend stays.

I think it is interesting that this quote was ignored. This entire thread is based on the argument that there is an imbalance of bookings on the weekends. We have no data to support this. But this quote doesn't support it.

If not to encourage weekend stays, what then? Force people to trim their stays to open up more rooms. I think that is what most people are upset about. Losing nights from their vacations. As Tim said, he might be going 2 six nights instead 3 five nights. That is 3 days less. It may be good for DVC, but it is a sad thing for all of us who enjoy our time on site.

After reading 143 pages on this thread, I am less willing to believe this was done for good of the members now than I was on page 1.

 

[Dean]

I think it is interesting that this quote was ignored. This entire thread is based on the argument that there is an imbalance of bookings on the weekends. We have no data to support this. But this quote doesn't support it.

There is a lot of indirect data to support that weekends in general are more available than weekdays. I would not put much emphasis on the quote you referenced because I believe it to not be correct based on years of accumulative information plus I don't know if it is even a good representation of what was said. One thing I've seen from DVC, and I referenced it earlier, is they are good about making you feel good without actually providing any commitments or even real information. Phrases like "I'm writing this down", "I'll definitely pass it on to management", "others have called with the same concerns", etc. Plus they're also good at making you feel like you're right in such areas. I'm not saying that's bad, it is what it is. We saw it time after time on the thread about reserving 7 days at a time.

 

[bcrook]

The best place to find any data would be the DVC - Resort Reservation Availability threads. http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2050896

If you look at December 2009 for example, you find weekends dates on the lists as -no availability. Currently the 4th and 5th is the 11th and 12th (weekends are popping up on the thread). Let's just assume that this pattern holds, and weekends are just as booked at weekdays - how does this justify an allocation?

Similar patterns develop in May 2009. Weekend dates are represented in the no availability reports.

I realize this is incomplete data, but it is at least something to work with. I think it supports Joy's statement from DVC and also the idea that weekends are not necessarily deserted wastelands.

People should keep questioning this, and keep calling member services.

 

[Dean]

The best place to find any data would be the DVC - Resort Reservation Availability threads. http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2050896

If you look at December 2009 for example, you find weekends dates on the lists as -no availability. Currently the 4th and 5th is the 11th and 12th (weekends are popping up on the thread). Let's just assume that this pattern holds, and weekends are just as booked at weekdays - how does this justify an allocation?

Similar patterns develop in May 2009. Weekend dates are represented in the no availability reports.

I realize this is incomplete data, but it is at least something to work with. I think it supports Joy's statement from DVC and also the idea that weekends are not necessarily deserted wastelands.

People should keep questioning this, and keep calling member services.

It's very limited data over a fairly short period of time. Eventually it will amass enough info to have more meaning though.

 

[bcrook]

I am not trying to be argumentative, but based on many planning threads, the data collected on the Resort Reservation Availability thread, and other comments about December all resorts weekdays and weekends are booked up and are hard to find. If that is the case, how could reallocation be justified for that season? I find many inconsistencies like this, and it goes back to the idea that something other than demand is at work here.

 

[tjkraz]

I think it is interesting that this quote was ignored. This entire thread is based on the argument that there is an imbalance of bookings on the weekends. We have no data to support this. But this quote doesn't support it.

Without providing any specifics, I had someone further up in the DVC food chain confirm that lagging weekend bookings were very much part of the motivation for this.

I tend to agree with Dean's take on the QA rep's statement. But even if we take it at face value, it was just a general statement about weekend occupancy. It doesn't address whether the occupants were staying on DVC points, 25% member discount (which is only available when DVC projects that points bookings will not fill the resort) or people who booked via the 60-day breakage rules. Saying that a resort is "full" doesn't mean "full of members using their points"--which is the true goal of the system.

As for using the availability reports here to draw any conclusions, that's a pretty flawed method. Instead of looking at December '09--which is 10 months away--look at March. There are nearly 100 date/room combinations reported as full at AKV, but the only weekends among those are:

Value Studio 6, 27
Standard Studio 27
Standard 2B 20, 21
Savanna Studio 27
Concierge Studio 27
Conceirge 2B 20, 21

That's 8 of 91 (8%) reported full dates being weekends. BWV is 15%. VWL is 0%. Weekends are 29% of our week.

 

[Chuck S]

Remember that we have no way of verifying the info submitted to the availability threads, and that availability changes. There could now be more weekend availability, some folks may have cancelled and/or some of the info could have been submitted while others were "walking" a reservation, thus holding rooms they didn't really want.

 

[Dean]

I am not trying to be argumentative, but based on many planning threads, the data collected on the Resort Reservation Availability thread, and other comments about December all resorts weekdays and weekends are booked up and are hard to find. If that is the case, how could reallocation be justified for that season? I find many inconsistencies like this, and it goes back to the idea that something other than demand is at work here.

You're not being argumentative at all. Do realize that December is an novelty that is unlikely to be representative. Plus we don't know when the days booked up or whether those members really got what they wanted, which would ultimately be important to make any absolute judgments. Plus I think it's very obvious that one of the changes that might help even out some of this demand is to change the seasons for December totally to likely Dream as a minimum and possibly expand the premier further and/or make at least part of it magic. NO system and no change to a system will be perfect for everyone. In some cases the change will benefit some and hurt others, in some situations it may benefit the system and hurt the owners or vice versa. Even if Dec weren't a problem at all, DVC needs some consistency so it's likely they'd change that time with all the rest that were more out of balance. It is unfortunate we don't have real data any more. The State of FL used to require resorts to publish such data but that stopped in 1995 or 1996.

 

[BroganMc]

plus I don't know if it is even a good representation of what was said.

Uh Dean, I would hope you aren't implying I was less than truthful about the quote. I did not reconstruct her words. She specifically said "we're booked on weekends too". The exact conversation was me saying "I understand DVC needs to balance demand but was disturbed by the changing of the weekly points" and her answering with the comment that weekends were booking as readily as weekdays.

I was taken aback by the comment myself for I assumed, like many here, that weekend nights being unbooked is the norm and the driving force for the point reallocation. Her comment led me to believe something else. I didn't grill her on the subject though. I was more intent on wanting to get the data for the point allocation math.

Until we have access to DVC's booking figures I'd caution anyone to presume what it actually is. All we know for certain is that DVC claimed the point allocation was done to meet member requests. For all we know, it was less about demand and more about complaints that weekend points were double the cost of weekdays. Joy did mention that was a frequent complaint among members to her, at least.

 

[LIFERBABE]

Well I will throw this anecdoctal data in.

I just booked THV today for Christmas/NYE 2009

At first I just booked the weeknights because the Fri/Sat were 95 pts each. Surely there would be weekend nights available later at that hi cost. No they are almost sold out! I went ahead and booked it.

This is the 2009 point chart, no developer points are in play for that time and demand is definitely there even with the double point requirement.