Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[dcfromva]

I don't think anyone believes this change will make people say they only want to go weekends because it's just as cheap, if everyone did so it'd screw up the system even more than it was before. What it will do is cause some to stay over a weekend that would not have otherwise and it will cause some to say over just a weekend that would not have done it otherwise. That added to the rooms freed up because S-F people are using up more of their points is all it really needs to do for the desired effect. A 3-4% shift across the board will likely be enough to produce the desired balance.

Dean,
We may not be the average DVCer, but this change does work out in our favor. We mostly go over long weekends because we have limited vacation time (we are at BWV right now ). Most likely, we will get another weekend or two when all it said and done. (I still haven't figured out next years' vacation schedule ).

Another thing that has changed (in the upcoming year anyway) is some of the special events are focused around the weekend as opposed to 7 days. Example, Flower Power concerts for the F& G. And Eat to the Beat concerts for Food and Wine. I think this will make the weekend nights more desirable for some folks.

 

[BobH]

It would be nice to see Disney management exhibit some better people skills.
They have probably sold so many smaller contracts that too much presssure has been put on Sun-Thurs reservation period. Then they go shoot themselves in the foot by changing the point schedule and creating a 100 point add on minimum at BLT, or maybe they are attempting to limit other DVC members from chopping up the available point contracts into too many small pieces. Whatever the reason Disney's management is not promoting future sales by creating all this turmoil. How about a little truth for change? The marketing team and management should have someone on the board that actually reads these discussion boards and has some idea of what the concerns of the members are - giving no explanation, or a poor explanation regarding the point changes just leads me to believe that Disney management is incompetent or does not care to explain anything. Either way they are not advancing their own cause and may be hurting the sales that justify their jobs.

 

[jodifla]

I'm surprised that so many people bought with such specifics in mind. One type of room, one set of dates. That's more of a traditional timeshare.

I get my annual allotment of points and tend to spend them like a kid in a candy store, not the same thing year in, year out.

Some years it's studios in the fall, some years it's 2 bedrooms in the winter, some years it's Concierge collection.

I did buy a small add on for 56 points at BCV thinking I think 4 nights in a studio, but even when I bought it, I completely recognized those numbers could change.

 

[Mike]

I'm surprised that so many people bought with such specifics in mind. One type of room, one set of dates. That's more of a traditional timeshare.

I get my annual allotment of points and tend to spend them like a kid in a candy store, not the same thing year in, year out.

Some years it's studios in the fall, some years it's 2 bedrooms in the winter, some years it's Concierge collection.

So let me get this straight, someone that lives within a 3-4 hour drive to WDW can't understand why others don't spend their points "like a kid in a candy store"?

Is it so hard to imagine that silly little details like work schedules, school schedules, kids sports schedules, family size and transportation costs could dictate visiting the same time each year in the same size accomodations????

 

[drusba]

So let me get this straight, someone that lives within a 3-4 hour drive to WDW can't understand why others dodn't spend their points "like a kid in a candy store"?

Is it so hard to imagine that silly little details like work schedules, school schedules, kids sports schedules, family size and transportation costs could dictate visiting the same time each year in the same size accomodations????

A bit harsh, Mike, but a valid point. I presume most come from other states and bought with the idea that they could go once a year at specific times -- maybe not the same time every year but often the same "season," e.g., those looking at school schedules likely mainly bought based on going in magic season. The thing is that conceptually many knew that there could be seasonal shifts but that has proven to be their albatross with the recent change. For example many thought they could buy enough for five nights or even a week in the magic season with the belief that if there are seasonal changes magic season, the highest there was except for Christmas and Easter, wasn't going to go up, some other one would. Even the ones who bought on the basis of getting enough points for a week in the magic season now see an increase at some resorts, and particularly for 1 and 2BRs, which is one that is extremely annoying because it is usually only a couple points, but you have to buy at least 25 (and 100 at BLT) new points to rectify the situation and you know the only reason the week total went up was not even because of any attempt to lower demand for weekdays but because it was done just to make the points come out equally for each weekday and each weekend night.

 

[BroganMc]

That's exactly the point. There was a larger cry from members on the reservations issues and we saw a number of points exactly like yours that I quoted. At this point it's about people skills from MS, not substance. Not intending to be harsh but they have NO authority to change this plus you, I and they know it will not change overall other than possibly another reallocation in a few years once his settles out.

What makes you think the hue and cry over the reservation window was bigger? Just because discussion of this topic has been limited to one thread on this board does not mean it is less of an issue. From talking to Joy yesterday it sounded like they were pretty backlogged with member complaints on this and expected many more over the next couple weeks.

The interesting thing about the reservation change is that it seems time has proven that change did not adversely affect people as much as some feared. We got into a discussion about that one too. This change has yet to reveal itself. My bet is that it doesn't make one iota of difference in room availability but does overall decrease the amount of time members book their trips. My concern for the program is that it will also give DVC a bad name in the industry with the increase in weekly point totals. If another reallocation is implemented in a couple years and sees yet another weekly increase, I'm even more convinced the program will get a bad rep.

I don't think anyone believes this change will make people say they only want to go weekends because it's just as cheap, if everyone did so it'd screw up the system even more than it was before. What it will do is cause some to stay over a weekend that would not have otherwise and it will cause some to say over just a weekend that would not have done it otherwise. That added to the rooms freed up because S-F people are using up more of their points is all it really needs to do for the desired effect. A 3-4% shift across the board will likely be enough to produce the desired balance.

That just doesn't make sense. S-F people travel then because they like the length of stay. It's a way of stretching your points to get more time at Disney. The point shifts for weekends do not affect that balance.

Look at SSR, for instance. 5 days in a studio in Choice is 65 points (previously 55); a long weekend same season Th-M is 66 points (previously 64). So for 1 more point, you get to stay one less day. That's not appealing to a point stretcher. Even a long weekender is paying 2 more points for their stay.

The only ones who will be encouraged to add more weekend nights to their trips are those already inclined to booking weekends. And they still didn't save enough weekend points to tack on another weekday stay.

I doubt you'll see any shift other than people dropping a day from their stays. Now that may mean Thursdays become more available.

 

[Chuck S]

So let me get this straight, someone that lives within a 3-4 hour drive to WDW can't understand why others don't spend their points "like a kid in a candy store"?

Is it so hard to imagine that silly little details like work schedules, school schedules, kids sports schedules, family size and transportation costs could dictate visiting the same time each year in the same size accomodations????

Except that point based times shares are not designed specifically to address the needs of people that must vacation the same week every year, that is the advantage for many people to buying a point based rather than set week timeshare. Point based timeshares are designed to address the changing vacation patterns of their members throughout the life of the ownership.

For instance, many original purchasers at OKW had young kids in 1992, and their travel needs were dictated by school vacation schedules, now most of those young kids are adults, their parents can vacation at other times of the year. Where school vacation times may have been in high demand for reservations in 1992, those same owners may now be requesting Food & Wine season or Early December & January more, increasing demand...or may now be staying fewer weekends than they did originally. Flexibility has its pros & cons, and adjustments may need to be made from time to time. That is why it is important to note the maximum possible allocation as mentioned in the POS.

I know or vacation habits have changed since 1992, since Mom stopped substitute teaching when she turned 70. And it would be wonderful to be able to get a studio at OKW for 69 points for a full week like we could prior to 1996. But things change, that same week increased to 80 points, Starting in 2010, that week will be 77 points. Adjustments will be good for some owners, who will not like them, and good for others. One thing is certain, things WILL change over the course of your DVC ownership,.

 

[BroganMc]

A bit harsh, Mike, but a valid point. I presume most come from other states and bought with the idea that they could go once a year at specific times -- maybe not the same time every year but often the same "season," e.g., those looking at school schedules likely mainly bought based on going in magic season.

I agree. Which is why changing those weekly totals really troubles me. Especially when the change has been an increase to a rounded number amount such as BWV going from 350 to 352 in Magic season.

What floored me and still gets me is the jump for SSR Studios in Choice over that 100 point amount. (Previously 97 now 105.) If I had purchased just enough to ensure a week then for my small group I'd most likely have picked up 100 points even. Suddenly I'm under my needed amount.

My guess is that the shift in season stays and room sizes is something that takes places over 5-10 years as members' family dynamics change. When the kids are small, they can do studios or 1bedrooms for quick work-only restricted stays. Then as the kids hit school years, they go into Magic and Premier season (Premier if they were able to afford the purchase price). It's only after the kids are teenagers or owners reach empty nest/retirement age that one can start changing up the point usage radically, unless of course they bypassed the whole childrearing scenario and are DINKs.

 

[BroganMc]

For instance, many original purchasers at OKW had young kids in 1992, and their travel needs were dictated by school vacation schedules, now most of those young kids are adults, their parents can vacation at other times of the year. Where school vacation times may have been in high demand for reservations in 1992, those same owners may now be requesting Food & Wine season or Early December & January more, increasing demand...or may now be staying fewer weekends than they did originally.

Ah, so what you're saying is this point reallocation is really all OKW owners faults?

 

[Chuck S]

Ah, so what you're saying is this point reallocation is really all OKW owners faults?

No, of course not, BWV VWL, HHI, VB and BCV have been around a while, too, and their owners are likely also experiencing the beginnings of change in their vacation habits as the kids grow up.

 

[BobH]

I know their books probably get audited and I understand the total points at a resort per year is not supposed to change no matter how the points get re-allocated. I believe Webmaster Doc once posted a nice chart on the number and types of accomodations at each resort, and it might be possible to roughly figure out the total points at a resort - but does anyone actually know what OKW total points are? Does everyone on these boards just assume Disney is actually adhering to the statement in the POS? If they were not how would owners even know?

 

[LVSWL]

I tend to agree, things will change with the average DVC owner. Children grow up, just as ours did, change from year round schedule to high school, soon to college. We went from traveling off season to busier times of the year and soon will travel when we feel like it. Many families will go through these same cycles. To me it seems that this natural progression would even out things within DVC without them going in and reallocating the points. While my family may be at one point in the cycle, another "younger" family may be at an earlier point in the cycle. I personally think things would have evened out.

 

[BroganMc]

No, of course not, BWV VWL, HHI, VB and BCV have been around a while, too, and their owners are likely also experiencing the beginnings of change in their vacation habits as the kids grow up.

Ah, so it's just all those pre-SSR owners mucking up the works. Glad to see the ball shifting courts. I was getting lonely in the Black Sheep corral.

Although I agree with the opinion that these paradigm shifts in vacation habits should be evening themselves out. There were a lot more new owners coming in with younger families in the last 3-5 years.

More has to fuel these reallocations than just "vacation habits". If not a push for add-on contracts then I suspect the opposite of making newer properties with higher point requirements seem more legitimate. It's very interesting how a studio at SSR is suddenly worth as much as BWV and BCV during F&W.

 

[Dean]

What makes you think the hue and cry over the reservation window was bigger? Just because discussion of this topic has been limited to one thread on this board does not mean it is less of an issue. From talking to Joy yesterday it sounded like they were pretty backlogged with member complaints on this and expected many more over the next couple weeks.

The interesting thing about the reservation change is that it seems time has proven that change did not adversely affect people as much as some feared. We got into a discussion about that one too. This change has yet to reveal itself. My bet is that it doesn't make one iota of difference in room availability but does overall decrease the amount of time members book their trips. My concern for the program is that it will also give DVC a bad name in the industry with the increase in weekly point totals. If another reallocation is implemented in a couple years and sees yet another weekly increase, I'm even more convinced the program will get a bad rep.

Maybe I should have said, that judging from the reaction on DIS, it seemed the outcry before was more than for this. More negative posts from more people on the thread about 7 day reservations. I think you'll see this change too is much ado about nothing for the membership as a whole.

That just doesn't make sense. S-F people travel then because they like the length of stay. It's a way of stretching your points to get more time at Disney. The point shifts for weekends do not affect that balance.

Look at SSR, for instance. 5 days in a studio in Choice is 65 points (previously 55); a long weekend same season Th-M is 66 points (previously 64). So for 1 more point, you get to stay one less day. That's not appealing to a point stretcher. Even a long weekender is paying 2 more points for their stay.

The only ones who will be encouraged to add more weekend nights to their trips are those already inclined to booking weekends. And they still didn't save enough weekend points to tack on another weekday stay.

I doubt you'll see any shift other than people dropping a day from their stays. Now that may mean Thursdays become more available.

There are different groups of S-F people and they are not all the same. Some only had that many points, others chose to go those times simply because it was less points even if they had enough and many other variations such as those that stayed 6 days instead of 7 and those that stayed 12 days with one weekend. Many of all of those stayed weekend some other way such as cash or off site, others did not. I think you're assuming that the vast majority of those S-F people only had enough points for those trips. I don't think that's nearly as true as you seem to think it is, I'd venture to guess that far more than half of that group have enough points to stay the same stay now as a minimum with the changes and a large % have enough to stay weekends too if they so choose. And a portion of those that only had enough will add on in some way. It's unrealistic to think that an increase in weekday and decrease in weekends won't shift usage, the only question is how much?, is it enough, is it too much.

I think you're missing one hard fact of DVC and that is that the system is self limiting. If enough rooms go empty, that means points are not being used and ultimately that points will be lost. I doubt many people will want to lose points so they will by default, use those points for the days and resorts that are available. If that happens, you'll see another change in the same direction. You better hope it does work because if it doesn't, there's another guaranteed reallocation coming in about 2-3 years.

 

[Mike]

Except that point based times shares are not designed specifically to address the needs of people that must vacation the same week every year, that is the advantage for many people to buying a point based rather than set week timeshare.

I never said the same week every year. Our vacations vary from early July to early August. We go for a 2 week period within that window. And that is why I wanted a point based system, not a set week.

drusba hit the nail on the head. I knew that I would be vacationing in the same season for the foreseeable future.

 

[Dean]

Is it so hard to imagine that silly little details like work schedules, school schedules, kids sports schedules, family size and transportation costs could dictate visiting the same time each year in the same size accomodations????

Not at all, many guests are like that. However, it is important to note that the type of ownership dictates your options and RISKS and that each has it's advantages and disadvantages. A fixed week resort guarantees you have a reservation. A floating week, set season system (most Marriott's) guarantees you a shot at a specific full week(s) within that season. A points system guarantees you're competing with a larger group of people, in DVC's case potentially every single member, for the same option. And it presents the inherent and stated risk that the total points for that option might change. Flexibility is the big draw with a points system though they are not always as flexible in all areas as one might think, exchanges come to mind.

 

[BroganMc]

I never said the same week every year. Our vacations vary from early July to early August. We go for a 2 week period within that window. And that is why I wanted a point based system, not a set week.

drusba hit the nail on the head. I knew that I would be vacationing in the same season for the foreseeable future.

Forgive me for being relatively new to the timeshare world, but my experience with Marriott taught me that the industry does not use fixed weeks anymore. Even when you buy a week's timeshare you are really just buying the rights to book a week during a certain season. Some of those weekly timeshares also allow you to do split weeks or lockoffs. And with the advent of timeshare trading organizations such as II and RCI, you're not even limited to a particular resort.

I can easily use my Marriott weeks outside my season or at another resort. The main difference with a point based system is that I can more easily book shorter stays and change my room sizes.

Isn't it fractional ownership that limits you to a set time and place?

 

[BroganMc]

Maybe I should have said, that judging from the reaction on DIS, it seemed the outcry before was more than for this. More negative posts from more people on the thread about 7 day reservations. I think you'll see this change too is much ado about nothing for the membership as a whole.

Don't mistake the moderator decision to limit discussion of this topic to one thread for less interest. This topic is being discussed on many boards and with much more negative impact than we see here. Another measure is just how much feedback Member Satisfaction has gotten. From what I understood, it has been considerable. And that's just the first wave of internet savvy members. When new planners hit mailboxes we'll see a better representation of member reaction.

As for the rest I still haven't seen how any of the point charge changes encourage any change in booking patterns OTHER than to have people downsize or drop days from their bookings. When you look at the charts you find that the totals have gone up in a disproportionate amount to what has gone down. By that I mean, any point savings you may have on a weekend does not begin to make up for the increased point costs of weekdays.

That's why I predict this particular change will prove to be an ill-conceived one. All it does is encourage larger point contract purchases and shorten the divide between newer and older resorts, particularly BLT. And that at the cost of disenfranchising existing members.

Now whether upper management will decide they need to adjust again in 2-3 years time, I expect depends more on how current sales are doing than current booking patterns.

 

[tjkraz]

Don't mistake the moderator decision to limit discussion of this topic to one thread for less interest. This topic is being discussed on many boards and with much more negative impact than we see here.

Oh, I don't know about that. I can think of one forum in particular which is probably having a field day with it. Of course, they tend to have a flair for the overly-dramatic. But I've looked at a dozen other DVC forums and none of them had a discussion that made it beyond page 2. Even the TUG thread only has 16 posts.

As for the rest I still haven't seen how any of the point charge changes encourage any change in booking patterns OTHER than to have people downsize or drop days from their bookings.

There will be many different responses to the reallocation. You can't just shoehorn 300k members into a couple of buckets. In many cases people will even vary their approach from one time to another.

My initial reaction is that we may cut down on our trip frequency. Under the 2009 charts we have enough points to take roughly three 5-night trips every two years. Now on some occasions we may instead do two 6-night trips every two years. Obviously we will get fewer nights out of this, but IMO that's not the end of the world. It will be nice to save the $$$ we would have otherwise spent on the third trip--transportation dollars saved, vacation time saved, etc.

Other times we may book in cheaper seasons, smaller rooms, cheaper resorts, etc. We may even add more points in the long run to extend those trips further.

I just think you're spinning your wheels trying to predict what is yet to come. The reallocation is a done-deal. In a few years perhaps we can look back and make some educated statements about how it has impacted the system. But not now.

And I fully expect there will be another reallocation. Perhaps not in 2-3 years, but it will happen.

 

[tidefan]

Forgive me for being relatively new to the timeshare world, but my experience with Marriott taught me that the industry does not use fixed weeks anymore.

Our St Maarten timeshare we bought resale a few years back is Week 45, Sat-Sat. Every Year. Same Bat-Time, same Bat-Channel. What's funny is that they have talked a few people into giving up their fixed week and going into "the Club" (floating weeks/points) with Diamond Resorts for an extra $3,000, and now all I hear is their complaints about how they can't get into their week anymore...

As for the rest I still haven't seen how any of the point charge changes encourage any change in booking patterns OTHER than to have people downsize or drop days from their bookings.

Well, for us, it will probably encourage us to go ahead and extend our vacations a day. Usually, we go for a week at a time, Saturday to Saturday, but with the lower weekends, we will probably go Saturday to Sunday. This will allow us to maximize our vacation time and what is an extra day of park tickets from 7 days to 8 days, isn't it like $3 per person? This type of stay would have been 384 points in a Magic 2-Bdrm (297 in a 1-Bdrm) on the old charts, but now would only be 377 (288 in a 1-Bdrm).