Dis Unplugged 6/9/20 - A question about the black experience at Walt Disney World

[Tonyz]

All I'll say in defense of Song of the South is that Walt had good intentions with it. He wanted a movie that celebrated the philosophy of the Uncle Remus stories. He hired a left-wing political radical (Maurice Rapf) to write the script because he specifically didn't want the movie to portray Remus as an "Uncle Tom." Walt wanted a point of view that would challenge these stereotypes:

"That's exactly why I want you to work on it," Walt told him, "because I know that you don't think I should make the movie. You're against Uncle Tomism, and you're a radical." (Walt Disney: The Triumph of the American Imagination by Neal Gabler)

Unfortunately Rapf left the production after a fight with the other screenwriter and the film suffered because of that. But there's evidence that Walt had good intentions; that he wanted to do the right thing with this film.

Song of the South also had scenes where white kids and black kids played together, which was rare at the time. Most movies would not have "mixing" of different races so they could remove the "black" scenes when the movies would play in the South.

 

[sweetpeama]

Personally, I believe Disney has already done enough by deciding to pull Song of the South. Sure, Splash Mountain was created based off of certain characters from a tone deaf movie, but the ride itself tries hard to omit those aspects.

I love slash mountain and would not want it to change for anything.

I have not been on this ride as it was closed for repairs when we went plus being a larger chest sized female rides involving water have the potential to require not only a wardrobe change but a towel so it's best to avoid unless I want to plan to wear a swimsuit under. Considering I can't tolerate heat and humidity so my travel to FL is restricted to late Sept to just before Memorial Day if I ever get my just before my birthday trip (my birthday is around memorial day) if there is a warm day I may done the tankini under my skirt and modest light (not white because of dirt attraction thnking more of a lighter pink, blue, periwinkle, lavendar) top and checkout splash mountain at WDW. I have been on the DL version but that was back in 1995 when we were there for a day since we came in a day early for my cousin's wedding (driving and didn't know if we would run into a late in the season snow storm in one of the mountain states we had to drive through) that year in March. I did enjoy it though it was a bit cold.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

All I'll say in defense of Song of the South is that Walt had good intentions with it. He wanted a movie that celebrated the philosophy of the Uncle Remus stories. He hired a left-wing political radical (Maurice Rapf) to write the script because he specifically didn't want the movie to portray Remus as an "Uncle Tom." Walt wanted a point of view that would challenge these stereotypes:

"That's exactly why I want you to work on it," Walt told him, "because I know that you don't think I should make the movie. You're against Uncle Tomism, and you're a radical." (Walt Disney: The Triumph of the American Imagination by Neal Gabler)

Unfortunately Rapf left the production after a fight with the other screenwriter and the film suffered because of that. But there's evidence that Walt had good intentions; that he wanted to do the right thing with this film.

Song of the South also had scenes where white kids and black kids played together, which was rare at the time. Most movies would not have "mixing" of different races so they could remove the "black" scenes when the movies would play in the South.

It really is an interesting discussion and I totally get and understand these points. Often when I have discussions with people and I mention them, but still comes down to "it's not as racist as some think" means "it's still kinda racist" which obviously isn't good

But I also think about part of what @kylenne mentioned about understanding the real history of those Characters and those stories and can it be used to teach, but I don't know - does the bad/ugliness outweigh the potential benefit

And at the same time from a ride engineering/storytelling perspective it is just so well done which gets people's emotions and nostolgia factored in

Definitely no simple answers or ones everyone will agree with

 

[taffeelion]

I have a sincere question for black people about Splash Mountain.

Splash Mountain is a classic & still a really great/fun ride. I've never seen the movie, but know enough about it to understand how problematic it is. I want people (Disney) to not try and erase its history. I want them to fully acknowledge what was wrong with it then and then do something equally anti-racist like put up something informational on the ride. Having said that, I don't have a problem with Disney re-theming the ride, I just know there will be a lot of blow-back.

 

[Tonyz]

Splash Mountain is a classic & still a really great/fun ride. I've never seen the movie, but know enough about it to understand how problematic it is. I want people (Disney) to not try and erase its history. I want them to fully acknowledge what was wrong with it then and then do something equally anti-racist like put up something informational on the ride.

The origins of the ride may be troublesome... but the ride itself is as innocent as you can get.

 

[sweetpeama]

Sidestepping the Splash talk for a sec, but if we're talking about theming and IPs, this is where I have to lament the legal issues limiting the use of Marvel in the FL parks for the hundredth time because Black Panther would be such a perfect fit for the parks, and that was a massive juggernaut of a movie financially, much more so than GotG. Only Endgame made more domestically. It was also a cultural phenomenon in a different way than just your standard Marvel blockbusters. If they just had to stick a coaster in Future World, instead of the dubious handwaving they came up with to justify GotG, can you imagine if they were able to theme it to BP instead? People talked about having a "Stark Expo" to sort of be a next gen Innoventions or Communicore, but given Wakanda's technology, it could easily be imagined as one of Shuri's outreach projects, with an emphasis on encouraging STEM (to bring it back to the old school edutainment mission). And imagine an Jedi Training Academy type of experience for the kiddos with the Dora Milaje. Due to the themes of the movie (advanced technology being in harmony with the natural environment, rich and diverse cultures, etc) there is so much untapped potential for it to be not just a thoughtless IP cash grab but something genuinely organic that fits in with the themes and missions of the parks. (AK also!)

And none of this has to be preachy either, btw. I'm just really sad it'll never happen because of lawyers.

I have a 15 year old daughter who would agree with you that is not fair that Disney can't use the Marvel Characters in all the Parks, Not sure which one is tha absoulute favorite because I get more of a comparingthe Marvel to the DC version of some of them and my head starts spinning plus she starts going off on these blended storyline fan fiction cross overs with shows I have no idea about and mom here checks out.

 

[kylenne]

I wanted to share a great resource for those of you who are not black but who want to learn more and educate yourselves and equip yourselves to be better allies. The Smithsonian African American Museum has put together a web portal for talking about race, you can find it here: https://nmaahc.si.edu/talkingaboutrace

When covid times are over and it's actually open again, I highly encourage you to visit the museum in DC. I was lucky enough to visit a couple of years ago with my mom's church group, all seniors for whom a lot of it was their lived history. It's a deeply moving experience but also very educational and enriching and it's not just about our tragedies, but also our triumphs. I can't recommend it enough, especially to those of you who are parents.

 

[sweetpeama]

Just wanted to add my experience.
I love going to Disney, it's an escape, but there is no place in the US where I (and my family) fully let go of being at least a little on-guard and aware of being Black.
To the OP's question, here are some of the things I think may be different.

• I talk to my kids before hand about keeping some distance from others in any line as to not 'provoke' a negative reaction
• I try to make sure we 'staInd in the right place' everywhere as to not 'provoke' a negative reaction
• I make sure everyone keeps phones/music/voices low as to not 'provoke' a negative reaction
• In stores, I try to have us move around with purpose and don't stand too close to items to give no one a chance to think we're stealing
• I scan what other people are wearing looking for 'good ole boy' gear like questionable slogans and confederate flags & try to weave around them so my family doesn't see it

It's a little sad writing this because I want my kids to be just kids and have fun, but I'm trying to guard them from people's negative preconceptions and reactions.
Am I overreacting sometimes? Who knows.
But if you've lived my life, you'd probably do similar types of things. We're not crazy or paranoid.
If you didn't know, some people are extremely nasty to Black people and we all have defense mechanisms built up over time.
I wish something better for my kids and their kids.

If I may can I ask if you saw my kids wearing their state 4-H shirts that have Do it like a (in our case being from Montana) Montanan on the back and the front is a small outline of the state with various animals agricultural symbols from that state-some have a tractor and corn, others a cow, a pig, chicken, sheep. (Originally 4-H started as corn clubs for boys and canning clubs for girls but has expanded to include so many more projects. Mine are taking Cat (was taking ceramics but due to covid the kids are having a hard time getting items fired bacause 90% of the people who have the studios are over age 60 and the remaining 10% are in their 40s and 50s and thus juggling their own households plus caring for their parents oftent times as well and since many of them have grounded grandma to the house they are doing extra shopping and pickup items) for my oldest and my youngest is taking photography and microwave cooking-I am picking up the stuff for a pineapple upside down cake to be made this weekend from the project book.

 

[Ninjagrrl]

If I may can I ask if you saw my kids wearing their state 4-H shirts that have Do it like a (in our case being from Montana) Montanan on the back and the front is a small outline of the state with various animals agricultural symbols from that state-some have a tractor and corn, others a cow, a pig, chicken, sheep. (Originally 4-H started as corn clubs for boys and canning clubs for girls but has expanded to include so many more projects. Mine are taking Cat (was taking ceramics but due to covid the kids are having a hard time getting items fired bacause 90% of the people who have the studios are over age 60 and the remaining 10% are in their 40s and 50s and thus juggling their own households plus caring for their parents oftent times as well and since many of them have grounded grandma to the house they are doing extra shopping and pickup items) for my oldest and my youngest is taking photography and microwave cooking-I am picking up the stuff for a pineapple upside down cake to be made this weekend from the project book.

I think this was meant to be posted somewhere else?

 

[DisGuy101]

Just wanted to add my experience.
I love going to Disney, it's an escape, but there is no place in the US where I (and my family) fully let go of being at least a little on-guard and aware of being Black.
To the OP's question, here are some of the things I think may be different.

• I talk to my kids before hand about keeping some distance from others in any line as to not 'provoke' a negative reaction
• I try to make sure we 'stand in the right place' everywhere as to not 'provoke' a negative reaction
• I make sure everyone keeps phones/music/voices low as to not 'provoke' a negative reaction
• In stores, I try to have us move around with purpose and don't stand too close to items to give no one a chance to think we're stealing
• I scan what other people are wearing looking for 'good ole boy' gear like questionable slogans and confederate flags & try to weave around them so my family doesn't see it

It's a little sad writing this because I want my kids to be just kids and have fun, but I'm trying to guard them from people's negative preconceptions and reactions.
Am I overreacting sometimes? Who knows.
But if you've lived my life, you'd probably do similar types of things. We're not crazy or paranoid.
If you didn't know, some people are extremely nasty to Black people and we all have defense mechanisms built up over time.
I wish something better for my kids and their kids.

I am just seeing your post. It made me very sad to think that we as POC actually have to make a huge effort to make non POC feel comfortable around us. The stress from that alone must be intense. I have to confess that I grew up in a place where POC were in the majority, so maybe that affects my perception a bit.

My Daughter is exact opposite. She is the only POC in her honors class in middle school. She is very aware of it and it seems to affect her a lot. She was so stressed out about it that she developed anxiety and did not want to be in the class any more. She simply became disassociated. When she goes out, she is always shy and thinks everyone is watching her. I tell her not to worry about other people. Just try to ignore them and go about your business. Did that work? Nope. Its really hard to for her to do at that age. Fact is, she shouldn’t have to feel like people are watching her and forming preconceived notions about her. She shouldn’t have to learn to block it out either. At Disney, its a little better for her. She lets her guard down, but that is the Disney bubble, not real life.

 

[sweetpeama]

I think this was meant to be posted somewhere else?

No I ment to post it here in response to slogans on shirts. The national 4-H program had a limited edition (only printed what was ordered over a 2-3 week period last fall) and I wanted to make sure something like that was not offensive.
My family has limited shirts with slogans and most are ones like support our troops on the front and we've got your back on the back which is the shirts that the funds go to our local hometown troops for the packages sent out for holidays and other times a year.

 

[RapunzelIsMyHomeGirl]

Since we're having a dialogue about Splash Mountain and Song of the South, I am trying to educate myself more about what is being said here and about the movie itself, etc. I have listened about the origins of Song of the South above in this thread. I just read this following information from the article cited underneath:

"An important point to make about Song of the South – and a lot of controversial art, for that matter – is that it’s not an act of PC revisionism to call out its prejudices, because plenty of people were doing so at the time, too. Disney produced the film over the objections of the NAACP and the American Council on Race Relations, and rejected efforts to soften the script by the southern-born writer Dalton Reymond. And it was released to picket lines in some cities and some scathing criticism from reviewers, politicians and other black advocacy groups."

https://www.theguardian.com/film/20...fficult-legacy-of-disneys-most-shocking-movie

 

[Tonyz]

"An important point to make about Song of the South – and a lot of controversial art, for that matter – is that it’s not an act of PC revisionism to call out its prejudices, because plenty of people were doing so at the time, too. Disney produced the film over the objections of the NAACP and the American Council on Race Relations, and rejected efforts to soften the script by the southern-born writer Dalton Reymond. And it was released to picket lines in some cities and some scathing criticism from reviewers, politicians and other black advocacy groups."

https://www.theguardian.com/film/20...fficult-legacy-of-disneys-most-shocking-movie

A lot of this is either false or misleading...

Yes, they went ahead with the film despite those objections, but like I mentioned before, Walt hired a writer, Maurice Rapf, who agreed that the movie shouldn't be made - Walt wanted him to write the movie that he wanted to see; to challenge the Uncle Tom stereotypes: "That's exactly why I want you to work on it," Walt told him, "because I know that you don't think I should make the movie. You're against Uncle Tomism."

Disney did not reject Dalton Reymond's efforts to soften the script. Dalton Reymond's white Southern bias was specifically why Walt hired another writer to work on the film as well. Reymond offered no efforts to soften the script, his script was even more racist, with the black characters calling the white characters "massa" and the black characters referred to as "darkies" who were happy slaves. Rapf took out those terms and moved the time period to Reconstruction time where the black characters were free.

In regards to the scathing reviews... neither the NAACP nor the American Council on Race Relations saw the movie before they reviewed it - they had just seen an early draft of Reymond's script. And one of the few black reviews written by someone who had seen the movie (Herman Hill in the black newspaper The Pittsburgh Courier) praised the film's intentions:

"The truly sympathetic handling of the entire production from a racial standpoint is calculated…to prove of estimable good in the furthering of interracial relations."

I'm not saying there's not problems with the movie. But the common beliefs surrounding it are full of misleading half-truths.

 

[RapunzelIsMyHomeGirl]

A lot of this is either false or misleading...

Yes, they went ahead with the film despite those objections, but like I mentioned before, Walt hired a writer, Maurice Rapf, who agreed that the movie shouldn't be made - Walt wanted him to write the movie that he wanted to see; to challenge the Uncle Tom stereotypes: "That's exactly why I want you to work on it," Walt told him, "because I know that you don't think I should make the movie. You're against Uncle Tomism."

Disney did not reject Dalton Reymond's efforts to soften the script. Dalton Reymond's white Southern bias was specifically why Walt hired another writer to work on the film as well. Reymond offered no efforts to soften the script, his script was even more racist, with the black characters calling the white characters "massa" and the black characters referred to as "darkies" who were happy slaves. Rapf took out those terms and moved the time period to Reconstruction time where the black characters were free.

In regards to the scathing reviews... neither the NAACP nor the American Council on Race Relations saw the movie before they reviewed it - they had just seen an early draft of Reymond's script. And one of the few black reviews written by someone who had seen the movie (Herman Hill in the black newspaper The Pittsburgh Courier) praised the film's intentions:

"The truly sympathetic handling of the entire production from a racial standpoint is calculated…to prove of estimable good in the furthering of interracial relations."

I'm not saying there's not problems with the movie. But the common beliefs surrounding it are full of misleading half-truths.

I'm going to read as much as I can about it in the next few days because I agree that there are misleading half-truths in the current regurgitation of what was said in the past. I am going to read as many different write-ups as I can, to see if I end up in the same place as you, somewhere similar, or somewhere different. So I'll check back in on this topic once I do

 

[BadPinkTink]

I guess part of the discussion about Song of The South for Americans will always be missing part of the conversation because most people have never seen it and can only go by what is written about it.

In Europe it has been shown on TV, I saw it maybe about 30 years ago and I actually have the official European VHS video tape. It was given to me by a family member, along with other Disney VHS videos as they knew I collect Disney merchandise.

I agree with Whoopie Goldberg and that it should be available in American BUT in my view it should only be shown for teaching purposes by specific educational groups and museums.

To me, its like all the footage the Nazis filmed of their raids and the horrific and disturbing things they did to the Jews in the concentration camps. At the time the Nazis were proud of their films and wanted to show off how good they were at their job. Now these videos are used in Holocaust Memorials and Exhibitions to tell the story of the Jewish people so that their suffering is not forgotten and people can learn about that dark time in German History.

I will also say that maybe I have a different outlook and can compare the American Slavery to the Jewish Holocaust because I have lived in Germany and I have been to Dachau Concentration Camp and walked in the footsteps of The Jewish people.

In Germany the Jewish Holocaust is recognized as a dark time in their history but they don't try to hide it. The general feeling in the country and with German people is yes, it happened but we want to move forward and show the world how much we have changed by using it to remember all those who suffered and tell their stories so that they will not be forgotten. They even have a big stone with NEVER AGAIN written in multiple languages at the entrance to Dachau Concentration Camp.

 

[kylenne]

In Germany the Jewish Holocaust is recognized as a dark time in their history but they don't try to hide it. The general feeling in the country and with German people is yes, it happened but we want to move forward and show the world how much we have changed by using it to remember all those who suffered and tell their stories so that they will not be forgotten. They even have a big stone with NEVER AGAIN written in multiple languages at the entrance to Dachau Concentration Camp.

With due respect, this is a bad comparison to make. The US has never reckoned with the Transatlantic Slave Trade the way Germany did with its Nazi atrocities. If we had, we’d be a much better country today. Germany banned Nazi symbols, they never enshrined them and you don’t hear Germans talking about “it’s heritage not hate” and they don’t have statues of Hitler and his generals up everywhere. Germans don’t hold weddings at concentration camps or make theme park hotels after them. And yet, no one will ever accuse them of whitewashing their history or ignoring the atrocities of the past.

White folks might read what I just wrote and be shocked, even, at the comparison. But many white Americans also don’t know that the Nazis got their eugenicist ideas from Americans, and they don’t know that modern Neo Nazis and far right in Europe today wave the Confederate flag in lieu of the Nazi ones that are banned.

 

[Ninjagrrl]

With due respect, this is a bad comparison to make. The US has never reckoned with the Transatlantic Slave Trade the way Germany did with its Nazi atrocities. If we had, we’d be a much better country today. Germany banned Nazi symbols, they never enshrined them and you don’t hear Germans talking about “it’s heritage not hate” and they don’t have statues of Hitler and his generals up everywhere. Germans don’t hold weddings at concentration camps or make theme park hotels after them. And yet, no one will ever accuse them of whitewashing their history or ignoring the atrocities of the past.

White folks might read what I just wrote and be shocked, even, at the comparison. But many white Americans also don’t know that the Nazis got their eugenicist ideas from Americans, and they don’t know that modern Neo Nazis and far right in Europe today wave the Confederate flag in lieu of the Nazi ones that are banned.

There's a really good book about the origins of the eugenics movement in America and it's birthing of the Nazi movement in Germany. It's called "War Against the Weak" by Edwin Black.

 

[BadPinkTink]

With due respect, this is a bad comparison to make. The US has never reckoned with the Transatlantic Slave Trade the way Germany did with its Nazi atrocities. If we had, we’d be a much better country today. Germany banned Nazi symbols, they never enshrined them and you don’t hear Germans talking about “it’s heritage not hate” and they don’t have statues of Hitler and his generals up everywhere. Germans don’t hold weddings at concentration camps or make theme park hotels after them. And yet, no one will ever accuse them of whitewashing their history or ignoring the atrocities of the past.

White folks might read what I just wrote and be shocked, even, at the comparison. But many white Americans also don’t know that the Nazis got their eugenicist ideas from Americans, and they don’t know that modern Neo Nazis and far right in Europe today wave the Confederate flag in lieu of the Nazi ones that are banned.

thats ok, and thats exactly the point I'm making. Both countries have a horrific history, but its the difference in how its been dealt with. And no I'm not shocked and you don't have be so defensive.

And I did know about the Confederate flag use in Ireland, in fact a sporting venue in my country has now banned its use.

Again, no need to be defensive and go on the attack. Some of us"white folk" are Black allies and are educated about your history and while we can't begin to understand what its like on a personal level , we can walk beside you and educate and teach our white friends and family.

 

[kylenne]

There's a really good book about the origins of the eugenics movement in America and it's birthing of the Nazi movement in Germany. It's called "War Against the Weak" by Edwin Black.

Thanks for the rec, I will definitely check it out.

To bring this around back to Disney though, a PP mentioned avoiding folk in “good ol boy” attire and I can also attest to how viscerally uncomfortable and unsafe I feel around people wearing Confederate flag stuff. Coming back to the resort for our midday break one time, I had the misfortune to be in a monorail car once with a woman in a hideous Confederate flag shirt that had some stuff on it about “you can’t take my heritage away from me”. My gf stood in front of me so I didn’t have to see it, until this person and her companion got off at the TTC. But I was deeply unsettled. Especially since it was just a few minutes after seeing a guy in Liberty Square of all places wearing a shirt that had some violent profanity about “stomping” people who “disrespect the flag” or something. I know there are rules against this sort of attire in the parks and you can tell a CM, in hindsight I wish I had, but in the moment I guess I was too shocked and scared. And I feel sad and resentful that the Disney bubble bursts at times like that. Like I said before, it’s rare but when it does it’s so upsetting. I go to the parks to forget about all of that.

 

[kylenne]

Again, no need to be defensive and go on the attack. Some of us"white folk" are Black allies and are educated about your history

Sis, I wasn’t attacking you. If you truly do understand the history involved, you’ll also understand that white Americans have a tendency to bristle at these comparisons and get upset over discussions about it, largely because the history is just not taught in our schools (deliberately). One only need look at the current uproar over NASCAR’s recent decision to ban the Confederate flag from their events to see how defensive people can be about this stuff. Attitudes are thankfully changing but not nearly fast enough.

This is what people who call themselves allies to marginalized people sometimes don’t understand: learning about the history of oppression is good and necessary, but so is listening when marginalized people speak, and doing so in a way that does not center yourself or your feelings. Perceptions of attacks and defensiveness where none have actually occurred are common, and should be challenged; eg. “why did I read it this way?”. I say this specifically because Black women are frequently perceived to be hostile and aggressive in these kinds of discussions, and inevitably there’s an implication that allied “support” is conditional upon our not rocking the boat too much and that it can and will be withdrawn at any time, which is why many of us don’t like to have these discussions. There’s a great deal of emotional labor involved, and it’s exhausting and generally thankless. I’m about to bow out now, because I feel myself getting to that point, but it’s my hope that this discussion continues to be respectful even if it’s uncomfortable.