Dis Unplugged 6/9/20 - A question about the black experience at Walt Disney World

thats ok, and thats exactly the point I'm making. Both countries have a horrific history, but its the difference in how its been dealt with. And no I'm not shocked and you don't have be so defensive.

And I did know about the Confederate flag use in Ireland, in fact a sporting venue in my country has now banned its use.

Again, no need to be defensive and go on the attack. Some of us"white folk" are Black allies and are educated about your history and while we can't begin to understand what its like on a personal level , we can walk beside you and educate and teach our white friends and family.

She absolutely had to say what she said and in the way that she said it. I did not interpret it as being defensive nor did I think she was attacking anyone. POC, especially female POC, have a history being called angry and aggressive by non POC when they attempt to express frustrations. When you are trying to express your frustration and you are being told those types of things, it really hurts. It’s like you are being marginalized and shushed.
 
look this is going way off topic and it feels like because I'm not black and I'm not American I shouldnt even be part of the conversation,.

This was NEVER EVER meant to cause conflict or offensive and I truly want to reach out and hug any person of colour who has had such traumatic experiences that they suffer post traumatic stress and mental health issues.

This is an important conversation and but there people like me who grew up in a white society and self educated about American Black History as a teenager as it wasn't being taught in school.
 
look this is going way off topic and it feels like because I'm not black and I'm not American I shouldnt even be part of the conversation,.

This was NEVER EVER meant to cause conflict or offensive and I truly want to reach out and hug any person of colour who has had such traumatic experiences that they suffer post traumatic stress and mental health issues.

This is an important conversation and but there people like me who grew up in a white society and self educated about American Black History as a teenager as it wasn't being taught in school.

Sometimes backgrounds often get lost in translation when passionate things are being discussed. You do make a valid point here about Education and black history. Especially it being such a big part of American history. I think history of all people that make up our Great nation is important. The only way to understand each other is to understand where we come from because that is what shapes our attitudes and understanding of things. We are all learning here. I defiantly am.

I also agree that we perhaps we need to refocus and keep this thread on the topic.

The people that have posted in this thread all have something in common. We all have a great love for Disney and we are all interested in listening to each other and sharing our experiences and perspectives in an effort to bring about change.
 
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Sis, I wasn’t attacking you. If you truly do understand the history involved, you’ll also understand that white Americans have a tendency to bristle at these comparisons and get upset over discussions about it, largely because the history is just not taught in our schools (deliberately). One only need look at the current uproar over NASCAR’s recent decision to ban the Confederate flag from their events to see how defensive people can be about this stuff. Attitudes are thankfully changing but not nearly fast enough.

This is what people who call themselves allies to marginalized people sometimes don’t understand: learning about the history of oppression is good and necessary, but so is listening when marginalized people speak, and doing so in a way that does not center yourself or your feelings. Perceptions of attacks and defensiveness where none have actually occurred are common, and should be challenged; eg. “why did I read it this way?”. I say this specifically because Black women are frequently perceived to be hostile and aggressive in these kinds of discussions, and inevitably there’s an implication that allied “support” is conditional upon our not rocking the boat too much and that it can and will be withdrawn at any time, which is why many of us don’t like to have these discussions. There’s a great deal of emotional labor involved, and it’s exhausting and generally thankless. I’m about to bow out now, because I feel myself getting to that point, but it’s my hope that this discussion continues to be respectful even if it’s uncomfortable.

You’re my hero for this. I didn’t think you were being defensive AT ALL.
 


I wish something better for my kids and their kids.
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I wish something better for you, and your kids and beyond as well.

I am just seeing your post. It made me very sad to think that we as POC actually have to make a huge effort to make non POC feel comfortable around us. The stress from that alone must be intense. I have to confess that I grew up in a place where POC were in the majority, so maybe that affects my perception a bit.

My Daughter is exact opposite. She is the only POC in her honors class in middle school. She is very aware of it and it seems to affect her a lot. She was so stressed out about it that she developed anxiety and did not want to be in the class any more. She simply became disassociated. When she goes out, she is always shy and thinks everyone is watching her. I tell her not to worry about other people. Just try to ignore them and go about your business. Did that work? Nope. Its really hard to for her to do at that age. Fact is, she shouldn’t have to feel like people are watching her and forming preconceived notions about her. She shouldn’t have to learn to block it out either. At Disney, its a little better for her. She lets her guard down, but that is the Disney bubble, not real life.
She shouldn’t have to feel like that. I’m sorry.
 
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Sorry about my weird replies before. (I have now edited to remove redundancies and incomplete replies. I thought I had cleared some attempts at replies before. I kept getting interrupted and would come back and see the conversation had moved forward and then....)

I’ll finish my thought. I wish for something better too.

Our visit to the Smithsonian museum of African American History And DC in general is the first time my white then 8 year old experienced being in the minority. (I will do better as a parent, I promise.) She certainly didn’t have any negative experiences but she noticed it and it was, a good opportunity to have a discussion about what that might feel like for someone else and what it is about our small suburban neighborhood that has made it so that this was the first time she experienced that.
 


She absolutely had to say what she said and in the way that she said it. I did not interpret it as being defensive nor did I think she was attacking anyone. POC, especially female POC, have a history being called angry and aggressive by non POC when they attempt to express frustrations. When you are trying to express your frustration and you are being told those types of things, it really hurts. It’s like you are being marginalized and shushed.
Thank you and for the record, I am angry because my race is seen as a political disagreement in far too many circles, that people haphazardly make selfish choices that impact my community, that another black man has died for no reason because I still need to say black lives matter and people refuse to get it. Yes, very angry. I've tried to have the conversation here but moderators shut it down and i was told the conversation had "ran it's a course". Now that Pete has said something (THANK GOD) maybe we can talk about it. Maybe change can happen.
 
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Another black person here. Lots of micro aggressions at WDW. We tend to stay at the Grand Floridian. More than once we’ve been asked if we were there to “have breakfast“ as if we couldn’t afford to stay there. A cast member also asked us once if we were “tired after the long drive” since we’re from NJ, which assumed we could not afford to fly to Florida. We also got the strangest looks when we did club level at Sugar loaf. Of Course we were the only black faces there so lots of uncomfortableness in the lounge.

DH and I are both attorneys so we are used to being in white spaces where we are the minority. We just shrug it off.
 
Another black person here. Lots of micro aggressions at WDW. We tend to stay at the Grand Floridian. More than once we’ve been asked if we were there to “have breakfast“ as if we couldn’t afford to stay there. A cast member also asked us once if we were “tired after the long drive” since we’re from NJ, which assumed we could not afford to fly to Florida. We also got the strangest looks when we did club level at Sugar loaf. Of Course we were the only black faces there so lots of uncomfortableness in the lounge.

DH and I are both attorneys so we are used to being in white spaces where we are the minority. We just shrug it off.

I’m thinking about how we can let people know how their words/questions are being interpreted by us and why. Especially in the parks and resorts. I get that some people don’t want to know or care but I think the people that do far out number those that don’t.

Again, I am floored by the number of people that cared enough to come into this thread to ask questions and take part in conversation. Only good can come from this. Hopefully.... 🙏
 
Again, I am floored by the number of people that cared enough to come into this thread to ask questions and take part in conversation. Only good can come from this. Hopefully.... 🙏

There are a lot more Black allies than you may think, and many of us have been fighting racism in whatever way we can, long before Black Lives Matter, but ts disheartening to face antagonism online from the ones we defend on a daily basis in real life.

I would love to be part of the online conversation but I will not be part of it on Disboards any more.
 
There are a lot more Black allies than you may think, and many of us have been fighting racism in whatever way we can, long before Black Lives Matter, but ts disheartening to face antagonism online from the ones we defend on a daily basis in real life.

I would love to be part of the online conversation but I will not be part of it on Disboards any more.
I don't think anyone has antagonized you here on purpose. I definitely didn't read that. Sometimes it is difficult to read the tone behind the text. Maybe you should try rereading what was written as if they were calmly conveying a message; that's how I read it personally.
 
There are a lot more Black allies than you may think, and many of us have been fighting racism in whatever way we can, long before Black Lives Matter, but ts disheartening to face antagonism online from the ones we defend on a daily basis in real life.

I would love to be part of the online conversation but I will not be part of it on Disboards any more.

You’re still centering yourself and your feelings in this conversation. Nobody denies your allyship, but accept challenges to your efforts when they are presented, especially by black folks.

Reflect on what was said and see if it can be useful for your growth. I suspect it can.
 
There are a lot more Black allies than you may think, and many of us have been fighting racism in whatever way we can, long before Black Lives Matter, but ts disheartening to face antagonism online from the ones we defend on a daily basis in real life.

I would love to be part of the online conversation but I will not be part of it on Disboards any more.

I’m really sorry you feel that way ☹️. I don’t believe that was anyone’s intent, certainly not mine.
 
Just wanted to add my experience.
I love going to Disney, it's an escape, but there is no place in the US where I (and my family) fully let go of being at least a little on-guard and aware of being Black.
To the OP's question, here are some of the things I think may be different.
  • I talk to my kids before hand about keeping some distance from others in any line as to not 'provoke' a negative reaction
  • I try to make sure we 'stand in the right place' everywhere as to not 'provoke' a negative reaction
  • I make sure everyone keeps phones/music/voices low as to not 'provoke' a negative reaction
  • In stores, I try to have us move around with purpose and don't stand too close to items to give no one a chance to think we're stealing
  • I scan what other people are wearing looking for 'good ole boy' gear like questionable slogans and confederate flags & try to weave around them so my family doesn't see it
It's a little sad writing this because I want my kids to be just kids and have fun, but I'm trying to guard them from people's negative preconceptions and reactions. :(
Am I overreacting sometimes? Who knows.
But if you've lived my life, you'd probably do similar types of things. We're not crazy or paranoid.
If you didn't know, some people are extremely nasty to Black people and we all have defense mechanisms built up over time.
I wish something better for my kids and their kids.
I feel you on this and tbh these defense mechanisms become so ingrained to the point of being second nature, I know I just don’t think about it. I've literally been doing it since childhood, we do these things for survival. Black families and especially black mothers are judged much more harshly, I know I don't have to tell you that. Growing up on our family trips I knew I had to be on extra best behavior.

I don't have kids so I don't have that to think about. But my experiences in the parks are colored by not just by race but by being in an interracial same sex relationship. It really "does not compute" sometimes that my gf and I are romantically involved, even when we're blatantly holding hands, and a lot of that is racial.

Re: this conversation about looks, apparently I have that poster on ignore so I'll just say that there's a lot of gaslighting that happens to POC and particularly WOC when it comes to our experiences. People do not trust that we know racism when we see it, even though we've seen it our whole lives. I've talked about that experience I had in the GF spa before, and people really like to think it was just in my head, or I was looking for hostility where none was intended, etc. As if I haven't spent a lifetime being the One Black Face in spaces like that, knowing what some folks think about my presence there. I didn't get stared at there, or at the Poly, or at Beach Club because people thought I was pretty. I got stared at because racists don't believe that black people can afford to be guests in those places, and don't think we belong there. Well, I work hard and I earn every penny that goes into vacations, I have every right to be there. That's why I don't pay them any mind lol. They can stay mad tbh.
Thanks for sharing these stories.

This was also mentioned in the Commander's short video on his African American Experience. Beside the stress and burden of bias attitudes or treatment, there's a whole nother burden. That of trying to be exemplary. Always being aware there's no room to fall short. It's a tremendous weight. Having to work twice as hard, behave twice as good, etc. Not enough people fully understand the excess stress that can involve.

This video is poignant on so many levels. Highly recommended for everyone on this board to watch. It reaches deep.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268794618461618177

"As the Commander of Pacific Air Forces, a senior leader in our Air Force, and an African-American, many of you may be wondering what I’m thinking about the current events surrounding the tragic death of George Floyd. Here’s what I’m thinking about..." - Gen. CQ Brown, Jr.
 
*First time posting*

Living (having been born in/grew up in) in the Netherlands I have a few different kinds of Disney experiences.

1. Disneyland Paris (All my life)
2. WDW as an international college program cast member (2009)
3. WDW as an adult with my (white) wife (2012)
4. WDW as an adult with my (same) wife and kids (2020 Feb).

Right off the bat points 3 and 4 have very little comments from me as my experiences were damn near flawless. Especially my 2020 visit.

Disneyland Paris has improved a lot, I remember going there as a teenager and feeling a bit uncomfortable with how my family was treated. My dad had an Afro during one of our visits and I remember him feeling so insulted that he swore to never go back (and never did). I was a kid so I never knew, nor asked (before he passed), what insulted him so. I kept going though and my last visit (2019 with wife and my oldest, 3 at the time) was fine.

Working at WDW for 8 months as a ICP was really the most noteworthy experience. Both from the guests, cast and Disney as an employer. It was 2009 so in some ways a different world, I'm also not an American so my experience is doubly different.

I can really mostly speak for Disney Paris and am glad to consider it a vastly improved experience, to the point that I now cannot recall any weird stuff happening during my last trip (2019).
 
I’m thinking about how we can let people know how their words/questions are being interpreted by us and why. Especially in the parks and resorts. I get that some people don’t want to know or care but I think the people that do far out number those that don’t.

Again, I am floored by the number of people that cared enough to come into this thread to ask questions and take part in conversation. Only good can come from this. Hopefully.... 🙏
I, too, am heartened by all of the Caucasian allies who are showing love and willingness to listen. This time feels different. I’m hopeful that things will actually change.
 
Thanks for the rec, I will definitely check it out.

To bring this around back to Disney though, a PP mentioned avoiding folk in “good ol boy” attire and I can also attest to how viscerally uncomfortable and unsafe I feel around people wearing Confederate flag stuff. Coming back to the resort for our midday break one time, I had the misfortune to be in a monorail car once with a woman in a hideous Confederate flag shirt that had some stuff on it about “you can’t take my heritage away from me”. My gf stood in front of me so I didn’t have to see it, until this person and her companion got off at the TTC. But I was deeply unsettled. Especially since it was just a few minutes after seeing a guy in Liberty Square of all places wearing a shirt that had some violent profanity about “stomping” people who “disrespect the flag” or something. I know there are rules against this sort of attire in the parks and you can tell a CM, in hindsight I wish I had, but in the moment I guess I was too shocked and scared. And I feel sad and resentful that the Disney bubble bursts at times like that. Like I said before, it’s rare but when it does it’s so upsetting. I go to the parks to forget about all of that.
I am sure that CMs saw that shirt and did nothing about it. For whatever reason, CMs often do not enforce many rules of the parks. But, it is probably because of messages they receive from higher up.
 
To bring this around back to Disney though, a PP mentioned avoiding folk in “good ol boy” attire and I can also attest to how viscerally uncomfortable and unsafe I feel around people wearing Confederate flag stuff. Coming back to the resort for our midday break one time, I had the misfortune to be in a monorail car once with a woman in a hideous Confederate flag shirt that had some stuff on it about “you can’t take my heritage away from me”. My gf stood in front of me so I didn’t have to see it, until this person and her companion got off at the TTC. But I was deeply unsettled. Especially since it was just a few minutes after seeing a guy in Liberty Square of all places wearing a shirt that had some violent profanity about “stomping” people who “disrespect the flag” or something. I know there are rules against this sort of attire in the parks and you can tell a CM, in hindsight I wish I had, but in the moment I guess I was too shocked and scared. And I feel sad and resentful that the Disney bubble bursts at times like that. Like I said before, it’s rare but when it does it’s so upsetting. I go to the parks to forget about all of that.

God I never even thought of that. The amount of eye-rolling shirts I've seen at Disney....how awful. Thank you for saying this because now I know it'll catch my eye when we're back in the parks. I'd be happy to let a CM know that it's offensive and violates their own written policy. I just feel terrible I didn't do it sooner.
 

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