Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[spinchy]

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This would be my concern. Some have argued that DVC closing was technically the owner's responsibility. Even though the owner didn't personally cancel, they were unable to honor the contract to provide a reservation (not just the points used for the reservation). Owners could be held responsible for future closures even though it's DVC and not the owner cancelling the reservation.

That's an interesting point of view. I'm curious as to whether there's any legal grounds supporting that, or just somebody at David's who was trying to force the issue with certain owners by making that claim. I'm also curious as to what it would take to actually close the resorts again. If they're staying open through the current conditions in Florida, what would it really take for them to close up again?

 

[Sandisw]

That's an interesting point of view. I'm curious as to whether there's any legal grounds supporting that, or just somebody at David's who was trying to force the issue with certain owners by making that claim. I'm also curious as to what it would take to actually close the resorts again. If they're staying open through the current conditions in Florida, what would it really take for them to close up again?

It has not been legally challenged, and based on specific contract langue that did not exist, the unclear part was the owners part or responsibilty to David’s.

He did keep the 30%, and it seems clear given the chargeback wins he was on the hook to renters. But, he has not gone after any renter that we know of...no info posted here at least...who didn’t return the 70% or agree to rent points again. Some did walk away.

I think that is why his new contracts tell owners they are indeed required to return the 70% if resorts close or any other issue like that.

The interesting part was that he told owners back then that DVCM closing was technically them and they owed money back...but then told renters owners were not responsible for the decision and therefore not entitled to a refund when the contract says any actions by owners results in one,

So, basically, it played it both ways which is why many owners lost faith And won’t use him again.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

That's an interesting point of view. I'm curious as to whether there's any legal grounds supporting that, or just somebody at David's who was trying to force the issue with certain owners by making that claim.

Likely, David's was making that statement to deflect responsibility away from his business. That being said, there were some self-professed lawyers posting earlier on this thread (and perhaps some others) who seemed to be of the same opinion. They stated that the owner was not just renting "points" but a "reservation." And that, if the accommodations were not available, the owner was liable because customer didn't get the reservation they paid for.

This illustrated what I consider a major flaw in the broker business model. The broker is paying the owner for their (often expiring) points. The broker then offers those points to a renter. But the renter was never told that they were renting points with "conditions" (i.e., expiration). It was never an issue when resorts were open because the renter was agreeing to a "non-refundable" reservation. This meant that the owner still got their money if the renter didn't show up, so it didn't matter that the points then expired. The owner had been paid for points by the broker whether the renter actually used them or not.

But with COVID, the resorts closed and it put into question WHO owed WHO? The renter was due a refund, but from WHO? They had paid the broker, not the owner. The owner had "sold/rented" their points to the broker, who accepted them knowing their expiration status. It was just a big mess.

Now that we're in the reopening phase, things are still muddy... if a renter won't travel because they don't feel safe enough (or even if they are prevented from coming due to travel restrictions, etc.), that technically should still fall under the "non-refundable" status of the contract.

It's admirable that the broker (and owners) are willing to still work with renters who can't/won't travel even though resorts are now open, but this actually complicates matters further because the accommodations promised ARE still being provided. Those points will likely be lost because the renter did not keep their reservation, so who is on the hook?

There are no simple answers, but one thing is certain... if I had ever considered renting points in the past, I will NOT consider it moving forward. We will gift our points to family/friends if we can't use them.

I'm also curious as to what it would take to actually close the resorts again. If they're staying open through the current conditions in Florida, what would it really take for them to close up again?

Hurricane? Second wave of COVID-19? Who would ever have thought that the resorts would be closed for months in the first place. This has taught everyone that literally ANYthing could happen.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

If you read what David’s has said - he ASK owners IF they COULD return the money already paid to them if they are able to - clearly it is NOT in my contract that I would should or have to do this
Again in same request he clearly ask in same manner to Owners about renting out their points again IF they are able to - again NOT in my contract
He asked Owners to put aside their contracts and work from their hearts - well I was all for that - but Not to the extent that David’s puts all financial responsibility on me while he sits and just collects cash ! Just shows where His heart is!
I really honestly feel horrible for all renters stuck right now - they really have no options - when resorts were closed you could pursue a chargeback but with resorts open you are stuck and it sucks! Who knew 11 months ago we would be where we are now ?? My stupid crystal ball failed on this one!!! Epic fail !!

 

[RachStu]

Does anyone know of any owners who requested they be paid their outstanding 30% for reservations that were during the closed period and, if so, what David stated in response? Am just curious.

I received my additional $2 p/p today for re-renting a reservation. I’m surprised the reservation resold. Someone got a nice last minute bargain at $9/pt for BLT. I’ve got one reservation left for next month which is up for resale. I will not be renting my points via David’s again after that reservation has completed.

 

[RachStu]

..

So what happened to me as an owner, when I rescheduled the reservation, I got my $2/point and was cc'd on an email to the renter with a copy of THEIR CONTRACT WITH DAVID attached which stated if there was another closure, act of God, etc. that David's was 100% off the hook and the owner was 100% liable. At the time, I wrote David's and said NO WAY I was going to take on that risk and he wrote back saying that I shouldn't worry that I was not liable as I had not signed the new contract, etc. I can't believe I accepted that line of baloney! Of course, in the event of another closure, the renter is going to come after me! Why wouldn't they since they do not know that I never agreed to the same contract that they did.

...

Edited to add: when David's sent the three new contracts, he cc'd me, not BCC'd, so if something goes awry the renters now have my contact info!

This charlatan has just done this to me, although he has BCC’d me in. This is fraud. He’s told the new renter that we have agreed to this tri-partite rental agreement to induce them into entering into a contract with him for this reservation. He should be reported to the Canadian version of trading standards. When I agreed to make the change I made it clear that it would not be subject to a new contract but would take effect as an amendment to the original intermediary agreement. He accepted this in writing. This is truly shocking behaviour for a business owner. It only goes to reinforce the decision I’d already made not to rent through him again (I hadn’t seen his email when I submitted my post immediately above this one).

 

[WDWEPCOT]

I’m very sorry this has happened to you
I agree this does appear to be a form of fraud I’m no lawyer but I don’t see how any of this is legal he is taking a mess and making it worse God forbid the resorts close - at least Disney is currently stating it would hurt them more to close than to stay open with short hours

 

[starry_solo]

This charlatan has just done this to me, although he has BCC’d me in. This is fraud. He’s told the new renter that we have agreed to this tri-partite rental agreement to induce them into entering into a contract with him for this reservation. He should be reported to the Canadian version of trading standards. When I agreed to make the change I made it clear that it would not be subject to a new contract but would take effect as an amendment to the original intermediary agreement. He accepted this in writing. This is truly shocking behaviour for a business owner. It only goes to reinforce the decision I’d already made not to rent through him again (I hadn’t seen his email when I submitted my post immediately above this one).

Just send an email "reply all" that says that you do not agree to the change in terms and that you will be abiding by the terms of the original contract between David's and you.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

Great idea to put in writing to all parties involved that you Never accepted any changes in terms and David’s have stated to you in writing that you would Not be held to the new terms ! Call him out on his sneaky behavior !!

 

[CraigInPA]

This charlatan has just done this to me, although he has BCC’d me in. This is fraud. He’s told the new renter that we have agreed to this tri-partite rental agreement to induce them into entering into a contract with him for this reservation. He should be reported to the Canadian version of trading standards. When I agreed to make the change I made it clear that it would not be subject to a new contract but would take effect as an amendment to the original intermediary agreement. He accepted this in writing. This is truly shocking behaviour for a business owner. It only goes to reinforce the decision I’d already made not to rent through him again (I hadn’t seen his email when I submitted my post immediately above this one).

Since you have the contact information for the owner, and David's contact information, you should send both the following email with the tripartite agreement attached:

I, (state your name), am not a part to the attached tripartite agreement, and am subject only to the original rental agreement in place for this rental dated (original agreement date). As such, the renter should not assume that the agreement signed by renter is fully enforceable against any party other than David's Vacation Rentals.
signed,
(state your name again)

 

[SherylLC]

Since you have the contact information for the owner, and David's contact information, you should send both the following email with the tripartite agreement attached:

I, (state your name), am not a part to the attached tripartite agreement, and am subject only to the original rental agreement in place for this rental dated (original agreement date). As such, the renter should not assume that the agreement signed by renter is fully enforceable against any party other than David's Vacation Rentals.
signed,
(state your name again)

THANK YOU!! THIS is very helpful!

 

[connorlevismom]

My re-rental checked in today and my money was transferred to me promptly. I am happy that everything worked out, but even happier that I can now sever ties with this unethical company.

After this company swore up and down IN WRITING that I was not bound to the new contract, I too, got the email to the renter (copying me) with their contact terms stating I was now liable. Thankfully I was only 2 weeks from the rental and was fairly certain this rental would happen.

I will NEVER rent with this company again. Now the issue becomes; who do I use now? I don't think I want to do it myself, so prefer a broker.

 

[quandrea]

I have to wonder how long the business will be able to stay afloat with so much bad word of mouth.

 

[WDWEPCOT]

I’m so happy that it worked out for you - great blessing lol way around for you and renter ! What a wonderful feeling to be done!! Congratulations

 

[EYL]

I will NEVER rent with this company again. Now the issue becomes; who do I use now? I don't think I want to do it myself, so prefer a broker.

I used David's to rent out points and eventually refunded the money that I received. I didn't think I would want to rent my points out myself either. But I gave it a try, and it turned out to be a great experience so far. Just knowing that I would do the right thing if the resorts ever close down again (i.e., refund the money to the person who paid for it in the first place), gives me comfort. I hope it gives the renters some comfort also.

 

[johnkerryP]

I had successfully used Davids in the past, back in 2015. I rented points for an Aulani trip for October. There has been basically no communication at this point yet, but there is just aboslutely no way the resort will open that soon. I feel for the owners, because we are all stuck. This whole thing has really put a bad taste in my mouth. I understand this is a very odd situation we're all in, and no one could've predicted it - however his reaction toward this process just strikes me as very poor business. I guess I just want to apologize as a renter, to the owners experiencing this - it shouldn't be this way. I worry this "credit" situation is just a giant ponzi scheme - but i also don't want the people i rented from to be impacted if i utilize my credit card to dispute the contract. Any insight into this? In a perfect world, I would just ask the owners directly if i could move it to another time that works for both of us - but I know that isn't feasible given this mediator in the middle. What the best option that leaves the owner and renter in the best available financial situation to walk away?

 

[Dracula]

I had successfully used Davids in the past, back in 2015. I rented points for an Aulani trip for October. There has been basically no communication at this point yet, but there is just aboslutely no way the resort will open that soon. I feel for the owners, because we are all stuck. This whole thing has really put a bad taste in my mouth. I understand this is a very odd situation we're all in, and no one could've predicted it - however his reaction toward this process just strikes me as very poor business. I guess I just want to apologize as a renter, to the owners experiencing this - it shouldn't be this way. I worry this "credit" situation is just a giant ponzi scheme - but i also don't want the people i rented from to be impacted if i utilize my credit card to dispute the contract. Any insight into this? In a perfect world, I would just ask the owners directly if i could move it to another time that works for both of us - but I know that isn't feasible given this mediator in the middle. What the best option that leaves the owner and renter in the best available financial situation to walk away?

Your best choice is to file a credit card chargeback when / if your Aulani reservation gets canceled. You should get all your money back and the owner would keep part of the money, and potentially re-rent with David. Then, with the cash in hand, when you are ready to rent again, reach out to one of the Aulani owners on this board, like me - you will save the headache of dealing with the intermediary and save money compared to David.

Alternately you can accept David's voucher - I know multiple people who took the voucher and went on to re-book, however the fine print on the voucher makes it less attractive than the chargeback, and you may end up forfeiting the money if David becomes bankrupt. This is probably the path to choose if you can afford to lose the money, and would like to help David to stay in business.

Based on our ongoing relationship, I think David is definitely cash constrained, but not bankrupt yet as he is still making payments to owners, albeit not as smoothly as he used to.

 

[robinb]

Does anyone know how David is currently handling immediate reservations at Aulani for owners? I know there was a variety of procedures when DVC first shut down, but did he finally settle on one? Also, what procedures are in place at DVC for expiring points used at a closed resort? My advice to @johnkerryP depends on the answer to these questions. Thanks!

 

[WDWEPCOT]

Go for chargeback I had an Aulani rental and David’s could have cared less - I contacted him several times he stated he was too busy with FL to worry about Hawaii so I did and WON a chargeback
No way on Earth would I take that worthless voucher from a company that treats their clients and customers the way he does
You do what you think is best but I would encourage you to rent from someone on these boards versus David’s you will be treated MUCH better.
Good Luck!! Let us know how it goes!!

 

[Dracula]

Does anyone know how David is currently handling immediate reservations at Aulani for owners? I know there was a variety of procedures when DVC first shut down, but did he finally settle on one? Also, what procedures are in place at DVC for expiring points used at a closed resort? My advice to @johnkerryP depends on the answer to these questions. Thanks!

Not sure I fully understand the first question... David relies on the owner to notify him of a reservation being canceled, then he in turn notifies the renter and offers a voucher. The owner is asked to refund the 70% paid or re-rent the points, although some people choose neither option. Disney is willing to un-borrow and do late banking for points used, but would only extend expiring banked points through the end of November.