Can Disney admit that FP+ and MDE are a fail?

[dixiegirl]

In the board room and the meeting rooms, heads may roll, people may get "reassigned" and others might leave for "other opportunities in the entertainment industry". But there will never come a day when defeat will be conceded. Instead, there will be "improvements" coupled with new, flashy videos. There will be "enhancements" designed to make your experience "even better". But there will never be surrender unless a new CEO were to come in and pivot away from past programs. But I do not see that happening.

Exactly!!!!!!!

 

[redrosesix]

It's not floundering. At all. Unless you're referring to the staged rollout, which you're not. You're suggesting it's not being successful. It is. Immensely.



You still have standby lines. You still have rope drop. You still have 3 guaranteed rides at the busiest time of the parks without having to run for fastpass tickets. That's pretty cool. Look at the positives. Your "landline" is still there.

3 = 1 ride that my family actually wants to do

and 3 = 0 if that one ride goes down.

and I'm still missing Minnie's House, which was torn down by the same people that built FP+. We leave in 3 days, and I'm already bummed about this trip.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Excellent point. However, what I am suggesting is that Disney will want to move this away from being binary where it has to tick off "A" in order to please "B". I think we can assume that their goal was to bring "B" into the fold while not losing "A". The goal could not have been to create a civil war where it attracts lots of "Bs" knowing that it will be losing lots of "As". So the smart thing to do would be to go back to the drawing board and figure out which of the features demanded by the "As" can actually be implemented while doing the least amount of damage to the viability of the system. One will always hear: "But we can't. It would ruin the system that we designed." And smart companies will reply: "I don't believe in "can't". Figure it out!" I agree that certain things that the "As" are demanding may collapse the viability. Like tiering. Not sure that can go away. But adding one simple change, such as, "3 FP+ bookable in advance and 2 more upon arrival in the park, to be used at any park, subject to availability" would quiet a lot of critics, and Disney can always fall back on the "subject to availability" to ensure that the system remains viable, since they will set the availiability parameters.

I have seen this idea floated a few times and it sounds like a great solution, but what if it isn't "available" while the ability to buy additional FP+ for a premium remains available? Talk about an uproar. We do not know if Disney is considering this "premium" model, but if they are, I doubt that we will see more than 3 FP+ for the standard patron.

I believe that Disney started at 3 FP+/day for a reason. I am not sure that we know that reason.

 

[MrInfinity]

Your premise is that Disney values both types equally and there are equal numbers of both groups. I think the number of Family A types is very small. But they are very vocal!

Exactly. I read there are 16 million visitors to the MK in a year. Yet there are only a few hundred out here being negative. The target customer is the millions of families that are not local to Florida but go there once every 1-3 years for a family vacation. THESE families shop, look, buy, eat, swim, drink, and spend spend spend because it is their big vacation.

The locals are there for the rides. Not the food. Locals eat at home in the morning and then eat fast food on the way home! That is not a target customer.

What if there are 100K Family B types for every Family A and Disney makes $3K per trip more from Family B? I think Disney is willing to hold their nose and look the other way, laughing all the way to the bank.

Yep. I'd guess your numbers are pretty much right on.

If the number of FP+ was the biggest complaint from the Family B types, then I would bet a change would be made. I believe the complaining from the Family A types will not change anything.

Correct. DW would sooner see 10 "B" families get on 3 rides each than see 2 "A" familiies get on 10 rides each while each "B" family gets on 1 ride. All up, it is 30 rides. Disney wants them spread out. Not usurped by any group of ppl who know how to get more out of the system.

I assume the frustration comes from the fact that this system is so good! Disney built a better system and ppl haven't found a way to beat it.

 

[Sammie]

The problem is that those thinking it is a fail are basing that on the opinions of at best a few thousand.

That is nothing to Disney.

 

[redrosesix]

I think that you have that backwards. The AP itself is the reward for frequent guests, but Disney really would prefer not to sell them at all. The AP holder goes to the park a lot more than any other guest type, and spends less/day than any other guest type.

Same thing -- Disney doesn't value them but they should.

Our family business is running apartment buildings -- so I look at the parks the same way. Our really really slow time is the summer and we count on our long term tenants (some there over 20 years) to pay their highly discounted rents on time while some of the apartments stay vacant. It may not be what makes our business profitable but it is what keeps us going. Like the regulars in a diner who come in just for a coffee...every day.

Because you can't just close the doors when you don't have all the customers you would like to have.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

I assume the frustration comes from the fact that this system is so good! Disney built a better system and ppl haven't found a way to beat it.

There is a way to double your FP+, but you have to be willing to pay for an extra park ticket per person. Since we already have APs, we are considering this for our trip in September.

 

[mom2rtk]

It's not floundering. At all. Unless you're referring to the staged rollout, which you're not. You're suggesting it's not being successful. It is. Immensely.



You still have standby lines. You still have rope drop. You still have 3 guaranteed rides at the busiest time of the parks without having to run for fastpass tickets. That's pretty cool. Look at the positives. Your "landline" is still there.

I used the word "would" in reference to "flounder". Meaning that "if" it flounders they would not allow it to do so for long. Meaning that if they don't add more FPs and/or hopping and more people decided not to book in the next year..... they would move quickly to address the problem.

None of us has any idea right now for example how their bouncebook bookings are looking. Lots of people have decided to put off trips next year, but Disney wouldn't know about it until attendance went down. I see lots of people saying they are on the bubble and saying that they are watching closely and might not book. If more fall in that direction, that could constitute floundering.

And no...... standby is not a landline. Standby is 2 tin cups and a string.

3 is still less than 6.

My landline didn't suddenly have limits put on it when I got my cell phone. I still had endless minutes and great reception. Absolutely no different than it had been all along.

 

[MrInfinity]

I used the word "would" in reference to "flounder". Meaning that "if" it flounders they would not allow it to do so for long. Meaning that if they don't add more FPs and/or hopping and more people decided not to book in the next year..... they would move quickly to address the problem.

None of us has any idea right now for example how their bouncebook bookings are looking. Lots of people have decided to put off trips next year, but Disney wouldn't know about it until attendance went down. I see lots of people saying they are on the bubble and saying that they are watching closely and might not book. If more fall in that direction, that could constitute floundering.

And no...... standby is not a landline. Standby is 2 tin cups and a string.

3 is still less than 6.

My landline didn't suddenly have limits put on it when I got my cell phone. I still had endless minutes and great reception. Absolutely no different than it had been all along.

Ah... but you're taking your "baseline" as a time in which you've come to expect 6 FP. Didn't you go to DW before FP-? When the park was built the standard was you wait in line, you take your turn. THAT is the baseline. Then they introduce FP-. You find a way to use this bonus to get yourself more rides at the expense of others. Fine. Disney figures out a way to put a stop to that and make more people happy. You read that as "at your expense" but really it is simply reverting the extra that you are usurping by a loophole in the FP- system. They are not taking away from you. They are fixing a loophole that used to let you take more than others.

The "no FP at all" is the baseline to which we should compare. No the "bonus years" during which you figured out you could get more. That landline, is still in place.

Just because Comcast gives you free HBO for 3 months if you sign up does not mean you can demand HBO forever! It was a bonus, you got it, now it goes away. So too was FP-. Need to not look at it as Disney taking... but rather a loophole that has been fixed to where you can no longer manipulate it to get bonus rides.

Even if Comcast, by some error, gave you HBO for 5 years. You enjoy it all along and keep quiet... one day you find it's shut off. You cannot complain to Comcast and say "Hey put my HBO back on". They fixed a problem wherein they were losing money by giving away product for free. So too is Disney fixing a problem wherein they were giving away excessive rides to ppl who were taking more. They fixed it. You were never "entitled" to it. Buy the currently offered service if you want it, don't if you don't.

 

[mom2rtk]

Ah... but you're taking your "baseline" as a time in which you've come to expect 6 FP. Didn't you go to DW before FP-? When the park was built the standard was you wait in line, you take your turn. THAT is the baseline. Then they introduce FP-. You find a way to use this bonus to get yourself more rides at the expense of others. Fine. Disney figures out a way to put a stop to that and make more people happy. You read that as "at your expense" but really it is simply reverting the extra that you are usurping by a loophole in the FP- system. They are not taking away from you. They are fixing a loophole that used to let you take more than others.

The "no FP at all" is the baseline to which we should compare. No the "bonus years" during which you figured out you could get more. That landline, is still in place.

Just because Comcast gives you free HBO for 3 months if you sign up does not mean you can demand HBO forever! It was a bonus, you got it, now it goes away. So too was FP-. Need to not look at it as Disney taking... but rather a loophole that has been fixed to where you can no longer manipulate it to get bonus rides.

Even if Comcast, by some error, gave you HBO for 5 years. You enjoy it all along and keep quiet... one day you find it's shut off. You cannot complain to Comcast and say "Hey put my HBO back on". They fixed a problem wherein they were losing money by giving away product for free. So too is Disney fixing a problem wherein they were giving away excessive rides to ppl who were taking more. They fixed it. You were never "entitled" to it. Buy the currently offered service if you want it, don't if you don't.

My baseline is FP-. Our visits have all been since 1999.

 

[JimmyV]

What if there are 100K Family B types for every Family A

Yep. I'd guess your numbers are pretty much right on.

Let's explore that, shall we? Assume your number of 16M guests in the MK per year is accurate. Seems high. But we'll go with it. That is 43,835 people per day. Again, I am certain that this is too high, but we'll go with it. Assume that the "average Family" is a unit of 4 people. That is 10,959 Families a day. Which is 76,612 Families per week. So if those numbers are "pretty much right on", then in an average week fewer than one Family A attends the Magic Kingdom. And in a month, 328,770 Families go to the Magic Kingdom, and only three of those Families are a "Family A". And in a year, 4,000,000 Families go to the Magic Kingdom, and out of that 4,000,000, only 40 are of the "A" variety.

I don't know about you, but those numbers don't seem to be "pretty much right on" to me.

 

[MrInfinity]

My baseline is FP-. Our visits have all been since 1999.

Disney Newbie. We went lots back in the 80's.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

Disney Newbie. We went lots back in the 80's.

I was going to say. I've been going since 1982. My baseline is no FP.

 

[JimmyV]

I was going to say. I've been going since 1982. My baseline is no FP.

Well, if you want to play that game, my baseline is a restricted number of tiered attractions based on the number of A, B, C, D and E Tickets that were in your booklet. Plus a few "free" attractions like "I You Had Wings" and "CircleVision 360". I've been going since 1972.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

Well, if you want to play that game, my baseline is a restricted number of tiered attractions based on the number of A, B, C, D and E Tickets that were in your booklet. Plus a few "free" attractions like "I You Had Wings" and "CircleVision 360". I've been going since 1972.

That's even more of a reason not to complain about the new system.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Let's explore that, shall we? Assume your number of 16M guests in the MK per year is accurate. Seems high. But we'll go with it. That is 43,835 people per day. Again, I am certain that this is too high, but we'll go with it. Assume that the "average Family" is a unit of 4 people. That is 10,959 Families a day. Which is 76,612 Families per week. So if those numbers are "pretty much right on", then in an average week fewer than one Family A attends the Magic Kingdom. And in a month, 328,770 Families go to the Magic Kingdom, and only three of those Families are a "Family A". And in a year, 4,000,000 Families go to the Magic Kingdom, and out of that 4,000,000, only 40 are of the "A" variety.

I don't know about you, but those numbers don't seem to be "pretty much right on" to me.

I think that the PP's ratio is off considerably, but I would guess that it is still pretty significant. Disney cannot "ignore" Family A because Family A is going to make a lot of noise if ignored, but that noise will hurt Disney more than the directly lost revenue, IMO.

 

[mom2rtk]

Disney Newbie. We went lots back in the 80's.

LOL. I had a deprived childhood.

I'm still trying to make up for lost time.

 

[mesaboy2]

Well, if you want to play that game, my baseline is a restricted number of tiered attractions based on the number of A, B, C, D and E Tickets that were in your booklet. Plus a few "free" attractions like "I You Had Wings" and "CircleVision 360". I've been going since 1972.

At some point, this theoretical "baseline" changes. For many, I'd guess that you can chuck a baseline several years old and set a new one as the standard. Unless of course, doing so doesn't buttress a case one is trying to make.

Otherwise, we should all be comparing our current lifestyle most directly to Marconi and Model Ts. (Or earlier, take your pick.)

 

[PeterPanic]

I don't intend this to be snarky or sarcastic in any way, so please don't take it that way. This is a sincere question that so far, has largely eluded an answer here. Here goes: Insofar as this relates to FP+, does "It worked perfectly for us" mean that you found it to be a tremendous improvement over the old system, or simply that you have no complaints about it? There have been many, many posts such as yours where people are stating that "it worked for them", and there is no basis to question that conclusion at all. But what seems to be missing is the taking of the next step. Did you find that getting 3 FP+ per day at one park only with tiering and no repeats is better than the old system, just as good, or not as good, but perfectly acceptable? I think that it is very clear how the people who do not like FP+ come out in all of this. But there seems to be a lack of clarity coming from the other side. Lots of "we liked it" and "it worked for us" posts, which is fine. But it isn't necessarily the case that those responses are coming from people who view this as an improvement as opposed to merely a change that they can adjust to. Hope that made sense.

p.s. This question actually goes out to anyone who falls into the "we liked it" or "it worked for us" camp, and not just PrincessJo, so anyone is free to comment. (Obviously.)

Good question. For me, someone that has been regularly going to WDW since 1983, it was an improvement.

I think the key point is what is Disney's end goal of the system. We may call it a "fail" if Disney's goal was to improve the guest experience for its most frequent guests. Since I'm pretty sure that wasn't the goal, FP+ and MDE might be succeeding in the goals that Disney truly has for it. That's the challenge for us since we won't know what they're truly hoping to do beyond the generic statements they make in public.

Absolutely correct.

you must not have seen my first post in this thread where I stated how it would be fine to see the MBs used, but more in the style of the original FPs. I don't care if you give me paper or not, but I'll be darned if I'm going to embrace planning rides 60 days out (maybe - I'm an offsiter from way back) and be limited to three a day. I also don't enjoy being limited to one FP per ride.

Let's interject the reason that this cannot be an option for Disney. It seems to me, at least, that it is obvious that Disney is trying to control FP distribution. With the old system (or the old system with bands) they have no control on how many each individual is able to obtain. You, for example, don't enjoy being limited to one FP per ride. Ever give any thought to the person that couldn't even get one, because you took your share and theirs? If there was never any reason for controlling the numbers, that would certainly be one. One may like to have more then one, but, it is not necessary, it's an extra that wasn't anticipated. Now they have a way to control it and make it an enjoyable experience for others as well.

I agree with your premise, but we don't know what we don't know. I believe that Disney will listen to complaints, but I do not believe that they will even try to correct them all. Some of the "fixes" might impact the viability of the entire system. Those will never be considered. We do not know what they are.

For instance, 5 FP+/day seems reasonable with no more knowledge than we currently have. Disney know exactly how many FPs they can allow on a given day. 5 may not be possible while allowing all guests access to their favorite rides. Tiering might be absolutely necessary for this to work in the parks with fewer ride options.

I can see a scenario in which more FP+ are allowed during value seasons. This would draw even more people to the parks during value season, and fewer patron means that the limit can be higher.

Also, we don't know if they are setting up a "pay for more FP+" scenario. If they are, 3 FP+/day is probably their high point for free to allow enough FP+ remaining for those willing to pay a premium.

Again - we do not know what we do not know. For now it is safe to say that this is not a failure as park attendance has increased since its implementation. Change will come, but we can only guess what it will look like.

And so much more. With pre-reservation, Disney can now 60 days out, have a pretty good handle on how many people will be in a given park on that day. That can allow them time to properly staff, provide sufficient food and beverage opportunities and so on.

Ah... but you're taking your "baseline" as a time in which you've come to expect 6 FP. Didn't you go to DW before FP-? When the park was built the standard was you wait in line, you take your turn. THAT is the baseline. Then they introduce FP-. You find a way to use this bonus to get yourself more rides at the expense of others. Fine. Disney figures out a way to put a stop to that and make more people happy. You read that as "at your expense" but really it is simply reverting the extra that you are usurping by a loophole in the FP- system. They are not taking away from you. They are fixing a loophole that used to let you take more than others.

The "no FP at all" is the baseline to which we should compare. No the "bonus years" during which you figured out you could get more. That landline, is still in place.

Just because Comcast gives you free HBO for 3 months if you sign up does not mean you can demand HBO forever! It was a bonus, you got it, now it goes away. So too was FP-. Need to not look at it as Disney taking... but rather a loophole that has been fixed to where you can no longer manipulate it to get bonus rides.

Even if Comcast, by some error, gave you HBO for 5 years. You enjoy it all along and keep quiet... one day you find it's shut off. You cannot complain to Comcast and say "Hey put my HBO back on". They fixed a problem wherein they were losing money by giving away product for free. So too is Disney fixing a problem wherein they were giving away excessive rides to ppl who were taking more. They fixed it. You were never "entitled" to it. Buy the currently offered service if you want it, don't if you don't.

 

[surferdave]

At some point, this theoretical "baseline" changes. For many, I'd guess that you can chuck a baseline several years old and set a new one as the standard. Unless of course, doing so doesn't buttress a case one is trying to make.

Otherwise, we should all be comparing our current lifestyle most directly to Marconi and Model Ts. (Or earlier, take your pick.)

Some of those baseline changes came as result of competition and market pressure. Despite the current market, WDW has seen some lean times and changed their business model before because of them. Suggesting that customers should meekly accept a return to such previous practices is nonsense.