Calling someone "Dr." outside of medical setting

[marius97]

Do you have a D.L. or a S.J.D.? Just curious, I've never met a lawyer in the US who qualified as "Doctor." Most attorneys in the US (who went to law school in the US) don't have a doctorate, so it's a different situation than a Ph.D.
I used to work for an online school that insisted its law professors, who held JD,s be called Doctor. Ew. I've sometimes heard lawyers call themselves Doctor, when they had a JD, which is incorrect. Well, it's actually just incredibly self important and kind of embarrassing. I do not deserve to be called doctor; I see my J.D. as quite different than a Ph.D. or an M.D., D.O., etc.
And I call my older colleagues Mr. so and so, but I do call my opposing counsel by their first name.

I never knew there was a difference between law degrees. What makes one technically a doctor an the other not?

 

[bcla]

I never knew there was a difference between law degrees. What makes one technically a doctor an the other not?

There used to be a Bachelor of Laws degree (LL.B) granted in the US. Yale Law School was the last law school in the US to grant the degree. There's currently justices on the US Supreme Court with only an LL.B - Breyer, Kennedy, Ginsburg, and Scalia. There are also honorary law degrees.

Right now, no state licensing board will allow one to take a law license exam without a J.D. or an equivalent foreign degree and/or a program at a US law school specifically to fill the gaps for an equivalent education. I don't say "state bar" because the state bar in some states is only a voluntary membership organization, while others it's an official state agency. In Arizona, law licenses are a function of the state Supreme Court.

 

[Ceila]

I find it strange that people impose their preferences on someone else's name. For those who say that if they meet someone with an MD or Ph.D. in a social setting and would refuse to call that person by the honorific "Doctor," may I ask why? I'm talking about a situation where you are not (yet) on a first name basis. To me, that would be like insisting on using a nickname for someone who prefers to use their given name. I understand if you don't know that someone uses that title, but if you know that's what they prefer, why would you insist on going against their personal choice? I just don't understand that.

 

[DisneyDreamer2504]

I find it strange that people impose their preferences on someone else's name. For those who say that if they meet someone with an MD or Ph.D. in a social setting and would refuse to call that person by the honorific "Doctor," may I ask why? I'm talking about a situation where you are not (yet) on a first name basis. To me, that would be like insisting on using a nickname for someone who prefers to use their given name. I understand if you don't know that someone uses that title, but if you know that's what they prefer, why would you insist on going against their personal choice? I just don't understand that.

Absolutely no one said they would refuse to use someone's title. Only that that person would seem pretentious and then most likely avoid them.

 

[Kimberlyann11]

Absolutely no one said they would refuse to use someone's title. Only that that person would seem pretentious and then most likely avoid them.

See posts #11 and 12

 

[carriemd]

The weird thing about a JD is that it's not a terminal degree--there are two degrees you can get beyond it, whereas a PhD or MD are considered terminal degrees. But one of them is called a Master's of Law (LLM), which comes after the JD. Confusing, right? JD is a bit of a misnomer because it used to be the LLB across the board, and (I think) that designation changed about 30-40 years ago in the US.
I've never met anyone who has the terminal law degree in the US.

 

[DisneyDreamer2504]

See posts #11 and 12

Yup, I was #11 and never said I would go against someone's wishes.

 

[Kimberlyann11]

Yup, I was #11 and never said I would go against someone's wishes.

I'm sorry I must have misinterpreted the following:

"I would not likely call someone dr outside a medical setting and there's little chance I would call someone by their military rank either."

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Absolutely no one said they would refuse to use someone's title. Only that that person would seem pretentious and then most likely avoid them.

This.

And the flip side to the question is, why on Earth would someone WANT others to call them "Dr" in a social setting if you have no other connection to that person? Reminds me of the "Maestro" episode of Seinfeld

 

[DisneyDreamer2504]

I'm sorry I must have misinterpreted the following: "I would not likely call someone dr outside a medical setting and there's little chance I would call someone by their military rank either."

I'm sorry, but yes, you do misunderstand. I was saying that whether or not I knew their title I would automatically refer to someone as mr/mrs/sir/ma'am. If they requested otherwise, then I would use it, and might them obnoxious, but not deliberately insult them. If someone is not my dr then I am not inclined to refer to them as such, unless they insist, in which case I would most likely avoid them. Again, this is all in social settings, bc in any work related setting of course you're use their titles, if only to keep your job.

 

[Kimberlyann11]

I'm sorry, but yes, you do misunderstand. I was saying that whether or not I knew their title I would automatically refer to someone as mr/mrs/sir/ma'am. If they requested otherwise, then I would use it, and might them obnoxious, but not deliberately insult them. If someone is not my dr then I am not inclined to refer to them as such, unless they insist, in which case I would most likely avoid them. Again, this is all in social settings, bc in any work related setting of course you're use their titles, if only to keep your job.

Oh - okay. Sorry. I did get the basic gist of it, but didn't understand that you would take their preference into consideration. It wasn't clear to me - through no fault of yours.

I still think it's rude to call a medical Dr. Mr or Ms instead of either "firstname" or "Dr lastname". If you know they are a doctor.

 

[luvsJack]

Why is it any more pretentious to want to be called "Dr" than it is "Mr" or "Mrs"?

My boss is a PhD. He introduces himself as first name last name, not Dr. Last Name. If the person chooses to call him "Mr Last name" instead of First Name then at some point, they are corrected. And I find it really funny that anyone would say he is pretentious. He is the furthest thing from it.

I would think it would be rude of anyone to use "Mr" instead of "Dr" if they know that some one has earned that title.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Why is it any more pretentious to want to be called "Dr" than it is "Mr" or "Mrs"?

My boss is a PhD. He introduces himself as first name last name, not Dr. Last Name. If the person chooses to call him "Mr Last name" instead of First Name then at some point, they are corrected. And I find it really funny that anyone would say he is pretentious. He is the furthest thing from it.

I would think it would be rude of anyone to use "Mr" instead of "Dr" if they know that some one has earned that title.

NOT what anyone is saying. It's pretentious to insist on being called "Dr" in a setting in which you should be called "Jim" or "Suzie".

 

[disykat]

NOT what anyone is saying. It's pretentious to insist on being called "Dr" in a setting in which you should be called "Jim" or "Suzie".

I think that's exactly what a lot of people here are saying.

Very few people have addressed the original post, which was specifically about titles in situations where you are not on a first name basis. Most of the answers have been about using first names.

 

[bcla]

The weird thing about a JD is that it's not a terminal degree--there are two degrees you can get beyond it, whereas a PhD or MD are considered terminal degrees. But one of them is called a Master's of Law (LLM), which comes after the JD. Confusing, right? JD is a bit of a misnomer because it used to be the LLB across the board, and (I think) that designation changed about 30-40 years ago in the US.
I've never met anyone who has the terminal law degree in the US.

My understanding is that the LL.M degree is mostly sought in the US for foreign law school graduates who want to be eligible to taking a law license exam. My understanding about the optional LL.M degree for those already with a J.D. is that it's closer to a postdoc to achieve some sort of specialization. It's certainly not a qualification to practice law and not (like a Ph.D) a requirement to be a professor. Heck - most architecture professors only have an M.S. because most architecture schools don't offer a Ph.D or other doctorate.

 

[eliza61]

NOT what anyone is saying. It's pretentious to insist on being called "Dr" in a setting in which you should be called "Jim" or "Suzie".

but the op specifically said "when you are not on first name basis"?

Sorry guys but I do not let strangers call me by my Christian name. If I am not on first name basis with you, then no you do not get to call me that.

Once again, for me the setting is moot. Whether in a boat, by a moat, with a goat or on the job. If I am at a party and you do not know me, no you do not get to walk up to me and call me Eliza. If I am in church and you do not know me and we are not introduced, no you don't get to walk up to me and start using my name like I'm your friend.

Now if we are at a party and some one introduces us, a common friend that's totally different.

If you do not know me and do not have my expressed permission to use Jim or Suzy, do not use Jim or Suzy.

So yeah, I'll wear the pretentious label. I do not allow perfect strangers to call me whatever they choose.

I don't allow children to call me by my first name either, my neices and nephews do not call me "eliza", nor do they address any other adult by their first name. LOL. in my family doing so could lead to tooth loss or at the very least a "you better remember who you're talking to". My pastor does not get called by his first name. It's either Bishop David, Rev. David or Dr. Evans. No matter where we are, at the church picnic we are not equals.

Sorry I totally disagree. I don't want any tom, dick or harry being that familar with me.

 

[FireDancer]

I find it strange that people impose their preferences on someone else's name. For those who say that if they meet someone with an MD or Ph.D. in a social setting and would refuse to call that person by the honorific "Doctor," may I ask why? I'm talking about a situation where you are not (yet) on a first name basis. To me, that would be like insisting on using a nickname for someone who prefers to use their given name. I understand if you don't know that someone uses that title, but if you know that's what they prefer, why would you insist on going against their personal choice? I just don't understand that.

I find it pretentious so I won't do it. If I'm corrected, "It isn't Mr, it's Dr." it gets a laugh and a "You aren't my doctor so no, it isn't".

Titles stay at work. Always.

Going back to a previous conversation I also don't correct people if they get my last name wrong, and it is more often pronounced wrong then right. I know they are talking to me and just respond. If they ask if it was right, and it wasn't, I reply with "close enough". Correcting mispronunciations is just as asinine as correcting the honorific. I could also not possibly care less if a total stranger whom I never met and will never meet again calls my by my first name.

This.

And the flip side to the question is, why on Earth would someone WANT others to call them "Dr" in a social setting if you have no other connection to that person? Reminds me of the "Maestro" episode of Seinfeld

Exactly.

 

[mom2rtk]

I find it pretentious so I won't do it. If I'm corrected, "It isn't Mr, it's Dr." it gets a laugh and a "You aren't my doctor so no, it isn't".

Titles stay at work. Always.

Maybe you need to update Miss Manners with your rules?

Of course it's rude for a doctor to insist someone call them Dr. Smith in a setting where everyone is using first names. But to go out of your way to call someone Mr. instead of Dr. in a setting where others are using last names, is just odd. Whether it's your doctor or not. They don't cease to be a doctor just because you walk out of the room.

I hope you don't have a heart attack out at a dinner party with a doctor in attendance. Maybe you will find they left their skills at work with their title.

 

[Jennasis]

but the op specifically said "when you are not on first name basis"?

Sorry guys but I do not let strangers call me by my Christian name. If I am not on first name basis with you, then no you do not get to call me that.

Once again, for me the setting is moot. Whether in a boat, by a moat, with a goat or on the job. If I am at a party and you do not know me, no you do not get to walk up to me and call me Eliza. If I am in church and you do not know me and we are not introduced, no you don't get to walk up to me and start using my name like I'm your friend.

Now if we are at a party and some one introduces us, a common friend that's totally different.

If you do not know me and do not have my expressed permission to use Jim or Suzy, do not use Jim or Suzy.

So yeah, I'll wear the pretentious label. I do not allow perfect strangers to call me whatever they choose.

I don't allow children to call me by my first name either, my neices and nephews do not call me "eliza", nor do they address any other adult by their first name. LOL. in my family doing so could lead to tooth loss or at the very least a "you better remember who you're talking to". My pastor does not get called by his first name. It's either Bishop David, Rev. David or Dr. Evans. No matter where we are, at the church picnic we are not equals.

Sorry I totally disagree. I don't want any tom, dick or harry being that familar with me.

Yeesh...lighten up Eliza.





Anyway...I know I mentioned upthread about the Cosby Show, but if I recall doesn't Bill Cosby insist on being called Dr. Cosby now after having been given an honorary doctorate?

 

[niceblueeyedgirl]

but the op specifically said "when you are not on first name basis"?

Sorry guys but I do not let strangers call me by my Christian name. If I am not on first name basis with you, then no you do not get to call me that.

Once again, for me the setting is moot. Whether in a boat, by a moat, with a goat or on the job. If I am at a party and you do not know me, no you do not get to walk up to me and call me Eliza. If I am in church and you do not know me and we are not introduced, no you don't get to walk up to me and start using my name like I'm your friend.

Now if we are at a party and some one introduces us, a common friend that's totally different.

If you do not know me and do not have my expressed permission to use Jim or Suzy, do not use Jim or Suzy.

So yeah, I'll wear the pretentious label. I do not allow perfect strangers to call me whatever they choose.

I don't allow children to call me by my first name either, my neices and nephews do not call me "eliza", nor do they address any other adult by their first name. LOL. in my family doing so could lead to tooth loss or at the very least a "you better remember who you're talking to". My pastor does not get called by his first name. It's either Bishop David, Rev. David or Dr. Evans. No matter where we are, at the church picnic we are not equals.

Sorry I totally disagree. I don't want any tom, dick or harry being that familar with me.

Okay you mentioned Church, so I will use that as an example.

Let's say you go to a Catholic church. Someone there knows you or knows of you. Their husband knows your husband through someone, but you aren't exactly close enough to be on a first-name basis.

So, they come to the sign of peace...if someone says, "peace be with you, Eliza" even though they don't know you personally, you think that is rude? That they should say "Peace be with you, Mrs. Jones"?

I'm sorry....I just can't see that.