Bush was told levies could break ....

[Lisa loves Pooh]

If the Californians are told "This is Comming! now get out" and they do not leave, and the city / state govt do not push the "GET OUT" worning, then the federal govt does the federal dance, then YES we are all to blame for not listening and taking care of ourselves and one another.
We need to listen to those who study / work in the fields that give us information for such things as these. But "it will never happen to me" comes out and that is the way we as humans seem to work. Sad, but true.

They better get out now then--b/c the big one IS coming.

I'm sure when it does--someone will be blamed b/c we knew it was coming though it cannot be predicted when.



We all know that a cup will overflow if filled to much water--we do not anticipate the cup to break.

Even in the Hurricane Pam scenario--the focuse was a surge and overlfowing of the levees..not a breaking of the levees.

we better check the civil engineering degrees of our politicians from now on.

Tarmand--that's terrible that he did that.

I know in Florida for all our evacuations----stuff books up pretty quickly. We usually make our hotel ressies at the 72 hour mark if we have that much notice.

I remember on the DIS boards discussion pre-Katrina how basically EVERY hotel room in Louisiana is booked.

Again--darn the federal government for not being able to ---->

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Living in south Texas, I have seen my share of hurricanes and their problems. I remember watching the approach of Hurricane Katrina and listening to local radio discuss and wonder why New Orleans was not being evacuated as early as Thursday and Friday before it hit. .

Trying to remember---but on one of those days it was still forecasted for the Florida Panhandle. Since fortune telling does not exist--they could have gone into a pre-prep mode...but order an evacuation for something that is 3 states away....is a bit unrealistic and hindsight is 20/20.

All the "but we knew it was going to hit"---well no we really didn't. Not until the target began shifting west and that didnt' start until Thursday--I don't recall what time. (I think about 5ish--with the first advisory including New Orleans at about 9pmish).

And in looking up the evacuation plans of New Orleans--when the target finally did shift to New Orleans and it was in the 72 hour window (and in the cone---it really was out of the cone for a good bit)---it was too close to nighttime to order an evacuation right way. They have to have so many hours of daylight remaining and they didn't and they couldn't order an evacuation. Not sure if this is a law or what.

Then it was only voluntary--and I recall Mayor Nagin saying in a press conference Sunday am (or maybe saturday, I don't recall) that he woudl do what he had to do to legally make people leave. There IS something screwy about the evacuation process.....if the Mayor did not have that power. I know here--we don't wait for the governor--but then again he doesn't wait for us and we get on the ball ASAP.

But one cannot implement a plan until their is a threat of danger---in florida....when we get into the cone (or it is so close that though we are not in a cone--we will be soon)--our Emerg svcs change their status to where they are watching the storm--getting everything in ready just in case something has to be done--but they don't tell us to do anything they just tell us to standby.

I think there is something weird about their preps--b/c though Mayor Nagin--a little too late wanted to make people leave--the way he was talking was almost like he didn't have the power to make people leave. Very weird. Perhaps some New Orleanians can shed some light on that.

Hindsight is 20/20 and I really wish I did screen shots of the different forecasting maps with the cone to show that indeed--NOLA wasn't in teh cone for quite a good bit--so to begin making people do stuff even if they had the power to do so--resources are better spent evaluating the storm for where it looks like it will go--not where everyone's crystal ball is telling them it would go. The storm could have just as easily slammed the panhandle and then we'd all be here screaming about why the govt focused their energies on New Orleans b/c they get missed every single time.

But it was about 5pm or so (I think on Thursday) when the projections were first changed to include New Orleans as a possible likely target.

Hurricane forecasting is a science that is not perfected just yet. We have come a long way since the turn of the century and even since Camille. However it is still not perfect--we are blessed we get as much time as we do and yes everyone shoudl be on their toes..but ultimately emergency preparedness for natural disaster--is a local thing--not a federal thing.

 

[eclectics]

I doubt that very much for 2 reasons.
1. The liberal media wouldn't have made a story out of it.
2. You'd be defending him with the same logic I used. Except Bill wouldn't have known about it.

Again I'm not defending Bush as President, because he pretty much sucks.
I'm sorry I voted for him.

1.) I'll give you a very, very light maybe.
2.) Wrong. If I think an elected official does the wrong thing I call them out on it. Clinton was wrong to lie.

Second to last sentence.) You and I are in total agreement.
Last sentence.) I'm sorry you voted for him too.

 

[toto2]

If the Californians are told "This is Comming! now get out" and they do not leave, and the city / state govt do not push the "GET OUT" worning, then the federal govt does the federal dance, then YES we are all to blame for not listening and taking care of ourselves and one another.
We need to listen to those who study / work in the fields that give us information for such things as these. But "it will never happen to me" comes out and that is the way we as humans seem to work. Sad, but true.

I think that it has been proven now that most people who stayed didn't have means to leave and not enough bus were made available for the task. Were there people who could have leaved ,stayed ? Certainly , but again most who stayed had no means to leave .

Edited to add: Since we all know and have been warned that the big one is going to happend one day or another , I think the governement should start the evacuation of California right away. And we have know for quite s few years now that a Huricane will hit florida at least once a year , I would evacuate this as well , an just to bad for those who stay behind ! And I would start on New-York city as well , since the ice caps are melting and the city will be flidded anyway .

 

[charlie,nj]

Yeah talk about a slow news day…I guess the press is still mad because nothing became of their big investigations into the Cheney shooting conspiracy..

I remember seeing the Katrina video on the news DURING the hurricane..so it old news. As a matter of fact I think a few people were bashing President Bush at the time for “turning it into a news/photo op”.

Is this the smoking gun that they are going after President Bush with? Him more or less repeating almost word for word in a Sept 1st interview something that he heard the National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield said a few days earlier? What am I missing?

From www.cnn.com

Bush has been accused of showing poor leadership after the disaster, and for indicating, along with Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, that no one could have anticipated that the flood protection system for New Orleans, Louisiana, would be breached.

However, transcripts from video conferences on August 28 and 29 show that National Hurricane Center Director Max Mayfield expressed concern that Katrina might push its storm surge over the city's levees and flood walls.
"I don't think anyone can tell you with confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not, but that's obviously a very, very great concern, " Mayfield says in one.

In a September 1 television interview, Bush said, "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees, " a statement Chertoff agreed with three days later.


BTW here is the time line I posted the the Katrina thread months ago.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/katrina/

at the bottom click on: Timeline: Katrina's devastation


Didn’t President Bush declare a state of emergency in Louisiana on August 27th?.

 

[tarmand]

I think that it has been proven now that most people who stayed didn't have means to leave and not enough bus were made available for the task. Were there people who could have leaved ,stayed ? Certainly , but again most who stayed had no means to leave .

Could you share with me where it has been proven because I just find it hard to believe since, as I mentioned before, there were people DRIVING THEIR CARS to the Superdome shelter. Those people had the means to leave and didn't.

I know it sounds like it, but I'm not trying to be confrontational, I really would like to read the proof. I not opposed to saying that I am wrong about something when the facts are presented to me.

 

[toto2]

Could you share with me where it has been proven because I just find it hard to believe since, as I mentioned before, there were people DRIVING THEIR CARS to the Superdome shelter. Those people had the means to leave and didn't.

I know it sounds like it, but I'm not trying to be confrontational, I really would like to read the proof. I not opposed to saying that I am wrong about something when the facts are presented to me.

First , I said most people , second , I will try to find the info

 

[kc10family]

toto2, conversation with you is always so interesting. Thank you.


Now, all I was trying to say is that "we" can not "Blame" one person alone.

 

[tinkerdorabelle]

We all knew, everyone knew that this hurricane was going hit this area and what that could mean, an area under sea level DAYS BEFOREHAND, There is no excuse for this. None. Kills me you guys can even justify and knitpick words. We all sat on the edge of our seats waiting for this hurricane to hit this area knowing what this could possibly mean, in absolute horror, I have a family member a little north of the area. Anyone with half a brain knew this (well now we know what the problem was). Yes it failed on all levels, but Bush is the President. They should have had preparations prepared BEFORE the hurricane hit, they knew what could happen, along with the National Guard and military, etc. and waited days after with those poor people being days without food and water, and you try to let him off the hook. Bush is going down as one of our worst Presidents in the history of this country for his lack of intelligence, maybe his vocabulary of a 5th grader should have been a clue.

 

[Planogirl]

People who went to the Superdome might have had the means to leave but maybe they didn't have anywhere to go. Maybe since so many were poor, they couldn't afford to go very far. Maybe they had faith in the Superdome and thought they could ride it out and then go home.

Of course, there was no way to leave after the storm. The area around the dome was flooded for quite a while.

 

[tarmand]

First , I said most people , second , I will try to find the info

I don't think I contradicted your "most" statement. I just asked for the proof since I found that hard to believe. Again, I was not trying to be confrontational, just wanted to read it for myself.

 

[tarmand]

People who went to the Superdome might have had the means to leave but maybe they didn't have anywhere to go. Maybe since so many were poor, they couldn't afford to go very far. Maybe they had faith in the Superdome and thought they could ride it out and then go home.

Of course, there was no way to leave after the storm. The area around the dome was flooded for quite a while.

Baton Rouge isn't very far. My opinion is that they could have driven to Baton Rouge and went to a shelter there. Heck, if the $15-$20 in gas was that hard to come by, why not get others to ride with you and share the gas cost? Maybe I don't understand because I have the means to get out, however, (and this is a whole different debate) New Orleans was full of people who have always relied on the government to take care of them and that's what they expected during the hurricane. I'm not saying that there weren't people who didn't have the means to get out, the elderly, people without access to vehicles, hospitalized people, etc. But I'll bet there were also a lot of people who chose to stay or decided to rely on the government to take care of them. And those people having to be saved probably cost some of the other's lives.

 

[toto2]

Could you share with me where it has been proven because I just find it hard to believe since, as I mentioned before, there were people DRIVING THEIR CARS to the Superdome shelter. Those people had the means to leave and didn't.

I know it sounds like it, but I'm not trying to be confrontational, I really would like to read the proof. I not opposed to saying that I am wrong about something when the facts are presented to me.

Here we go :http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301508.html

And "Much of this is embodied in the odd phrasing that even the most circumspect mainstream media sources have been using to describe the hardest-hit victims of the storm and its devastating aftermath: "those who chose to stay behind." Instantly, the situation has been framed with language to flatter the prejudices of the comfortable and deny the reality of the most vulnerable.



It is obvious that the vast majority of those who failed to evacuate are poor: they had nowhere else to go, no way to get there, no means to sustain themselves and their families on strange ground. While there were certainly people who stayed behind by choice, most stayed behind because they had no choice. They were trapped by their poverty - and many have paid the price with their lives. "

and from :http://www.ti.org/vaupdate55.html

""The white people got out," declared the New York Times today. But, as a chart in the Times article makes clear, the people who got out were those with automobiles. Those who stayed, regardless of color, were those who lacked autos.

What made New Orleans more vulnerable to catastrophe than most U.S. cities is its low rate of auto ownership. According to the 2000 Census, nearly a third of New Orleans households do not own an automobile. This compares to less than 10 percent nationwide. There are significant differences by race: 35 percent of black households but only 15 percent of white households do not own an auto. But in the end, it was auto ownership, not race, that made the difference between safety and disaster.

"The evacuation plan was really based on people driving out," an LSU professor told the Times. On Saturday and Sunday, August 27 and 28, when it appeared likely that Hurricane Katrina would strike New Orleans, those people who could simply got in their cars and drove away. The people who didn't have cars were left behind."

"About 26,000 low-income families in New Orleans don't own a car."

 

[MrsKreamer]

I imagine you've never heard of a hotel in Baton Rouge?

Let's not get into a battle about the Constitution.

Hate to burst your bubble, but every hotel in BR was booked up already with evacuees...we had to go all the way to Dallas to find rooms available, and we booked ours a week in advance.

 

[toto2]

toto2, conversation with you is always so interesting. Thank you.


Now, all I was trying to say is that "we" can not "Blame" one person alone.

Thank you !

Obviously , we cannot blame just one person , but ultimatly , let say at the ford companye , if the corporation does not work , and makes mistake , iy is is the big boss who will get the boot.. ( At least this is how it should be!)

 

[toto2]

I don't think I contradicted your "most" statement. I just asked for the proof since I found that hard to believe. Again, I was not trying to be confrontational, just wanted to read it for myself.

I know , I dont feel that you are...it just , I am at work ( dont tell !) so my semtences are sometime short !)

 

[MrsKreamer]

Living in south Texas, I have seen my share of hurricanes and their problems. I remember watching the approach of Hurricane Katrina and listening to local radio discuss and wonder why New Orleans was not being evacuated as early as Thursday and Friday before it hit. They relaled a comparision as to how Houston would have already been under an evacuation order. (and this was before it ever hit New Orleans not after) Unfortunately, the New Orleans leadership weakness was shown when they finally issued the order too late to get everyone out.

A few weeks later we saw just how Houston handled an evacuation much better, although they have since had to work out many of their own problems with their plan.

The point is local leadership is where the solutions to these problems have to be handled. There is no one size fits all federal solution to a local problem. I sure would not want to see some federal official come down and try to tell us how to evacuate when they do not understand the area. Fortuantely for us, Houston's strong local leaders (of each Party) were up to the problem.

Excuse me? My mother was in Houston and had to evacutae and spent 12 hrs trying to get to Beaumont. Puh-lease...one thing out local govt did get right was the voluntary evacuation part. We weren't waiting for hours parked on the interstate...

 

[MrsKreamer]

Trying to remember---but on one of those days it was still forecasted for the Florida Panhandle. Since fortune telling does not exist--they could have gone into a pre-prep mode...but order an evacuation for something that is 3 states away....is a bit unrealistic and hindsight is 20/20.

All the "but we knew it was going to hit"---well no we really didn't. Not until the target began shifting west and that didnt' start until Thursday--I don't recall what time. (I think about 5ish--with the first advisory including New Orleans at about 9pmish).

And in looking up the evacuation plans of New Orleans--when the target finally did shift to New Orleans and it was in the 72 hour window (and in the cone---it really was out of the cone for a good bit)---it was too close to nighttime to order an evacuation right way. They have to have so many hours of daylight remaining and they didn't and they couldn't order an evacuation. Not sure if this is a law or what.

Then it was only voluntary--and I recall Mayor Nagin saying in a press conference Sunday am (or maybe saturday, I don't recall) that he woudl do what he had to do to legally make people leave. There IS something screwy about the evacuation process.....if the Mayor did not have that power. I know here--we don't wait for the governor--but then again he doesn't wait for us and we get on the ball ASAP.

But one cannot implement a plan until their is a threat of danger---in florida....when we get into the cone (or it is so close that though we are not in a cone--we will be soon)--our Emerg svcs change their status to where they are watching the storm--getting everything in ready just in case something has to be done--but they don't tell us to do anything they just tell us to standby.

I think there is something weird about their preps--b/c though Mayor Nagin--a little too late wanted to make people leave--the way he was talking was almost like he didn't have the power to make people leave. Very weird. Perhaps some New Orleanians can shed some light on that.

Hindsight is 20/20 and I really wish I did screen shots of the different forecasting maps with the cone to show that indeed--NOLA wasn't in teh cone for quite a good bit--so to begin making people do stuff even if they had the power to do so--resources are better spent evaluating the storm for where it looks like it will go--not where everyone's crystal ball is telling them it would go. The storm could have just as easily slammed the panhandle and then we'd all be here screaming about why the govt focused their energies on New Orleans b/c they get missed every single time.

But it was about 5pm or so (I think on Thursday) when the projections were first changed to include New Orleans as a possible likely target.

Hurricane forecasting is a science that is not perfected just yet. We have come a long way since the turn of the century and even since Camille. However it is still not perfect--we are blessed we get as much time as we do and yes everyone shoudl be on their toes..but ultimately emergency preparedness for natural disaster--is a local thing--not a federal thing.

It was actually Friday night. I remember b/c I had no plans to evacuate until Sat morning. Dh got up with the baby to let me sleep in. 15 mins later he woke me up and said "We have to pack now, the cone shifted, and it looks like this one is really gonna hit us." I am usually the one who is ready to jump to evacuate, and we didn't think it was really coming this way until Sat morning. Of course my unlce always plans ahead and already had rooms booked in Dallas for us to evac.

 

[MrsKreamer]

Baton Rouge isn't very far. My opinion is that they could have driven to Baton Rouge and went to a shelter there. Heck, if the $15-$20 in gas was that hard to come by, why not get others to ride with you and share the gas cost? Maybe I don't understand because I have the means to get out, however, (and this is a whole different debate) New Orleans was full of people who have always relied on the government to take care of them and that's what they expected during the hurricane. I'm not saying that there weren't people who didn't have the means to get out, the elderly, people without access to vehicles, hospitalized people, etc. But I'll bet there were also a lot of people who chose to stay or decided to rely on the government to take care of them. And those people having to be saved probably cost some of the other's lives.

ITA They even interviewed people saying, well, we always go to the superdome and then go home...no big deal. Dh and I were living paycheck to paycheck when Katrina hit. We really did not have the means on the 27th of the month to travel. All I have to do is look and my son, to know that I would do anything to get him out of harms way. We were flat broke by Sept 2nd, and I had to beg my boss to wire me my paycheck.

You have to have personal responsibility. I was always told if they called a MANDITORY evacuation it meant that no one would be there to help you if you needed it, that is why they tell you to leave.

 

[MrsKreamer]

We all knew, everyone knew that this hurricane was going hit this area and what that could mean, an area under sea level DAYS BEFOREHAND, There is no excuse for this. None. Kills me you guys can even justify and knitpick words. We all sat on the edge of our seats waiting for this hurricane to hit this area knowing what this could possibly mean, in absolute horror, I have a family member a little north of the area. Anyone with half a brain knew this (well now we know what the problem was). Yes it failed on all levels, but Bush is the President. They should have had preparations prepared BEFORE the hurricane even hit to rescue these people, they knew what could happen, along with the National Guard and military, etc. and waited days after with those poor people being days without food and water, and you try to let him off the hook. Bush is going down as one of our worst Presidents in the history of this country for his lack of intelligence, maybe his vocabulary of a 5th grader should have been a clue.

We didn't know until Sat and the storm hit Mon...so unless you have a crystal ball that told you earlier than that...