Boycott EMM or...

We love Disney , with or without EMH morning or evening we will still go . I don' t think that there is anything wrong with the fact that I am trying to get anyone who likes and uses EMH , like my family , to think twice before purchasing EMM tickets or if it is brought back the AfterHours ticket . I believe that if these "tests" are successful it will eventually lead to the end of EMH and I and I'm sure many others do not want to see that happen . I also believe , as I've said in a previous post that these "limited , exclusive" events will change from what they are now to something a lot like the current EMH with the only exception being that now Disney is getting you to pay for it .

I think only time will tell and it will all be based on revenue. We always stay onsite and we go down 4 - 6 times a year. We have not been to an EMH for at least 8 years. I will, however, book an EP EMM if they announce one. Access to tier 1 rides with little to no wait is far more valuable to us than running with the herds even at an EMH. I really think the EMM's will be very popular.
 
1) I keep seeing that this used to free, but if you are referring to EMH they are still "free" to onsite guests.
2) Now off-site guests can enjoy empty parks, and those onsite can too in a different way.
3) If you are referring to free breakfast, well I'm not sure that was ever free.
4) Maybe you could site an example of when people got their CS breakfasts free with their park admissions.
5) Claiming things that are false doesn't really help people see your POV. It just makes you sound kind of bitter towards not only DIsney but the very people willing to pay for these events.
6) This is an up sell, and to some its totally worth it.
7) I don't care what WDW used to be, or what it may be 30 years from now. I care what it is now, and now my very middle class self would totally buy this.
8) I'm not wealthy like you eastendlights so maybe I'm the market they are trying to capture with their slick underhanded business practices.

AGREE

1) AND before there was EMH there was E-Night where onsite guests HAD TO PAY for extra hours.
2) Off-site guests are the BULK of Disney guests. No way 30,000 rooms can fill the parks, water parks, Disney Springs, recreations ..... so offering a hard ticket meal and FP+ is a positive to them.
3) I've been going since 1971 and never received a free breakfast or even breakfast bar.
4) Yes
5) I get some folks think it's a money grab, I think $500+ a night for a Disney resort is a money grab but if others want to pay, my stockholder self is happy.
6) Disney World is voluntary luxury vacation, upsells are completely optional and hurt no one.
7) Disney was never to be stagnant. No business should be stagnant. IF there are potentially untapped markets with open wallets - tap it. If it tests well, it will stay, if not it will go.
8) Everyone is not their market, and even each product has a different market. MK EMM for me is a no, DHS EMM for me is a yes, for my own reasons.

SO to the OP's "Boycott EMM" - my vote is no. If it works for your trip then book it. If it doesn't then don't. Vote with your pocketbook and others will do the same.

To all finding one reason or another it impacts your trip - every fine print at Disney says "subject to change", no hours are ever in stone they are constantly adjusting; no fireworks, parade or anything else is guaranteed. When they changed Le Cellier to signature, I didn't complain, I stopped going. It's always been this way and always will be. Frustrating at times, yes. As I have said over and over, luxury vacation and if it is not working for you anymore then find something else. No one should go on vacation frustrated and not enjoying themselves.

There was a day there was NO EMH and there may be a day they are gone. While I enjoy them and a huge plus to my onsite stays - it seems many folks do not use them and it is not a deciding factor to stay onsite. EMH costs lots of money to operate and since most guests are riding, not shopping - they make no money. Eliminating them would be a great way to trim the budget. Disney is under no obligation to keep them and they will do what is best for business.
 
You get into the venue several hours early.
But no music, which is the sine qua non of the concert, the way rides are for the park.

Doing what you want to do, would do away with EMH which is still a draw for guests.
I don't see how. EMM twice a week, non-exclusive early opening twice a week, EMH for on-site guest once a week. Something for everyone. And you'd be amazed at how this would redistribute the crowd. The "must avoid EMH" mentality would be gone in a flash.
 
I haven't read this whole thread so apologies if this is a dumb question, but is the EMM at Hollywood Studios new? The fact the only 2 rides open are Toy Story and Star Tours makes me think that is a horrible formula and will not do well. EVERYONE will go to Toy Story first, right? I would think to have a few of the tier 1's available makes more sense. I love both Rockin Rollercoaster and Toystory. If my tier 1 fast pass was Toy story I'd consider paying this to be able to ride RR early and maybe TSM 2x in one day. I think the way they have it everyone will immediately go to Toy Story then go to Star tours. If Toy Story, Rockin Roller coaster, and Tower of Terror were open, I'd pay $69. But the way it is I just don't see the value/
 

Unlike the Christmas Parties, these morning events (if they continue to offer breakfast) are limited by the number of people the restaurant can serve at any given time and the queue lengths (since that is the part of the "magic" you are paying for .. NO lines).

You will have some very unhappy guests if you pay for this exclusive event and cannot simply WALK ON the rides.
They can't sell a LOT more tickets as they are limited by the capacity and turnover rate of the restaurants. You don't want unhappy guests that have to wait for breakfast that they paid an arm and a leg for.

While I don't doubt they will increase the limit if it is in high demand, I think they will do other things first rather than ruin the "exclusive" feel of the event.
1) increase the mornings it is offered
2) create a 2nd instance of it at a given park. (Like offer a "Tomorrowland" version of this where you get SM, Buzz and the Speedway with breakfast at Cosmic Rays).
3) Package it with the existing places that serve PPO breakfast for slightly more. (Get breakfast reservation at BOG and get access to the three rides).
All of the same things can be said for the initial party releases. They were very limited in numbers, so those participating could do & see everything multiple times. There was nothing but praises for the parties. People were thrilled with them, including us. Many swore to never go to a less exclusive party, when a rise in tickets sold per party became a rumor. If they didn't, there were plenty of people to take their place. This isn't a new concept for WDW. Online threats mean nothing to them. Those of us who have been around many years have been here & done this & aren't surprised by anything.
 
But no music, which is the sine qua non of the concert, the way rides are for the park.


I don't see how. EMM twice a week, non-exclusive early opening twice a week, EMH for on-site guest once a week. Something for everyone. And you'd be amazed at how this would redistribute the crowd. The "must avoid EMH" mentality would be gone in a flash.

Because if just anyone can get into the park at early opening a couple days a week, it takes away one of the perks of staying on site. I mean, after all, if I can just pay $75 for a throw away campsite and get my magic bands, my early bookings, a couple days of free parking, perhaps one day of EMH if I time it right, and then I know there'll be 2 other days with early openings offered for free... there's not that much incentive for me to spend $1000-2000 staying on site, when I can spend a fraction of that staying off-site, and still get all the perks.
 
I don't think those who do this event should feel bad or guilty at all....and I certainly don't feel angry at anyone for participating. Disney just ain't getting anymore of my money for things I can do without paying more. I'm plenty skillful at navigating the park and managed to go and never wait more than 15-20 minutes for anything even without FP. I've never missed out on a headliner. And as a DVC member we eat breakfast in our room...a reasonably priced breakfast far superior to anything in those warming trays. So we good.

When I was younger, 15 rides in a row on a roller coaster would have been Uh-mazing...but I turn 40 this year, and the thought is just not appealing to me. We also have no children. In fact, I'd go so far as to say Disney didn't have me in mind at all when they made these Extra Hours events...or even the failed Wine Down at Epcot (we don't drink)...or Club Villain (we don't drink, DH doesn't dance and character meets aren't a big thing for us)...or the dessert parties (the offerings aren't as appealing as an ice cream cookie sandwich on a curb an hour before the show starts)...

In fact, now that I think about it...we don't buy souvenirs either...Disney probably would be happier if we just stayed home LOL!
 
I don't think those who do this event should feel bad or guilty at all....and I certainly don't feel angry at anyone for participating. Disney just ain't getting anymore of my money for things I can do without paying more. I'm plenty skillful at navigating the park and managed to go and never wait more than 15-20 minutes for anything even without FP. I've never missed out on a headliner. And as a DVC member we eat breakfast in our room...a reasonably priced breakfast far superior to anything in those warming trays. So we good.

When I was younger, 15 rides in a row on a roller coaster would have been Uh-mazing...but I turn 40 this year, and the thought is just not appealing to me. We also have no children. In fact, I'd go so far as to say Disney didn't have me in mind at all when they made these Extra Hours events...or even the failed Wine Down at Epcot (we don't drink)...or Club Villain (we don't drink, DH doesn't dance and character meets aren't a big thing for us)...or the dessert parties (the offerings aren't as appealing as an ice cream cookie sandwich on a curb an hour before the show starts)...

In fact, now that I think about it...we don't buy souvenirs either...Disney probably would be happier if we just stayed home LOL!
:scratchin I'm starting to wonder what you go to WDW for. :p:rotfl2:
 
I AM concerned with the future of WDW. I think if they continue along this path, everyone will lose out in the end.

But people have been saying this for decades. And ever since my uncle was a cast member in the 90s, the complaints were the same about hours and staffing, rising ticket prices, and how CMs were not as friendly as they used to be. I'm not saying that nothing has ever changed, but the fans have been complaining about the "decline" for decades.
 
I believe that if these "tests" are successful it will eventually lead to the end of EMH and I and I'm sure many others do not want to see that happen . I also believe , as I've said in a previous post that these "limited , exclusive" events will change from what they are now to something a lot like the current EMH with the only exception being that now Disney is getting you to pay for it .

I think you've got the wrong target. I don't think EMM or DAH has anything at all to do with Extra Magic Hours. The events are uncomparable because of the volume of attendees -- EMH has a captive audience of about 100,000 resort guest at any given time. They are a part of the marketing strategy, and they woddl have to rewrite their resort philosophy in order to get rid of them. EMH are a fee perk to stay onsite -- EMM and DAH are only going to appeal to people ho are willing to splurge a large proportional amount of money in addition to what they've already paid.

If you've got a concern about this, JimmyV's point is the moire accurate one. If EMM ands DAH are successful (I haven't written off DAH yet) then I do think it will mean a reduction in general operating hours. Not EMH for resort guests, but the overall hours the park is open to everyone.
 
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Disney's aim is anyone who is willing to pay, and yes the wealthy have more disposable income so there is nothing wrong with offering something that would appeal to them. Are you equally as mad about the tours that costs $100s of dollars an hour? How about the fireworks cruises? The deluxe resorts? Signature restaurants?
These are nothing new and as fas as I know Disney didn't stop selling park tickets to us regular folk when people started buying the tours. They didn't stop their firework shows for the people in the park. They didn't shut down the value resorts or the counter service restaurants.
Offering something extra that costs extra doesn't equate to only wanting the wealthy there. Maybe its Disney's way of enticing them to come and vacation with us rabble. (that was a joke BTW).

I have read thread after thread on here that say Disney is targeting the wealthy and that price increases are the way they are thinning the crowds, etc. This not my opinion. I understand that their aim is anyone willing to pay. I am saying I do not agree with the way they are operating. I am saying that things are getting out of hand when a new "premium, exclusive experience" (and I have to type that tongue in cheek) is announced every other week. If everything is so hunky dory with operations that the aim is to lower crowd levels by charging more money as the current popular opinion holds-why all of the cutbacks? Why are there less hours? Why is ride capacity being reduced? Why are they not adding hours and CM's to handle the hordes descending on the parks? Why are they not adding meets and greets and more entertainment rather than removing characters and taking away attractions? Why are the parks not in the pristine condition they were in back in the '90's and early '00's if they are indeed so profitable -can they not use some of these profits for upkeep? I was appalled by some of the conditions we witnessed on our trip this winter. Why have they not expanded the parks before this if that was really the issue? What company in the history of the world ever decided they wanted LESS customers? Why would they not be IMPROVING everything about their product-just like Walt would have wanted -instead of diminishing it? To me, this all smacks of a money grab-plain and simple. Not a company that cares about the guest experience anymore but a company looking to wring every dollar out of a fire sale.


Just because I can afford it does not mean that I think that the "regular folk" should be priced out. I like mixing with the rabble every once in a while, it keeps me humble ;) (.....that was also a joke). Why would they not look to include MORE families at all price points instead of downgrading the experience for everyone? I understand that there are people able to pay for high end experiences but just because you are able does not mean you are willing. A fireworks cruise does not reduce the impact of the fireworks for everyone else just like a signature meal does not make a CS meal taste any different. A deluxe resort does not change the quality of the stay in a value resort. This is not a high end experience, unlike the tours and fireworks cruises and signature restaurants and deluxe resorts (well, to Disney they are deluxe but not when compared to the real world but that is a whole other thread). It is an hour of park time to ride and do things that your regular ticket should enable you to do without having to endure ridiculous waits intentionally caused by Disney and a more than likely mediocre breakfast. It is an hour of park time that will not be added to the schedule and included with regular park tickets to help reduce the effects of the crowds. It is making people pay twice for something-regular ticket plus extra ticket for what are in effect pay FP's. The more these types of upsell events are added, the more they are going to take away from the "regular" park experience-it is not a huge leap to state that. It is a not so gradual chiseling away of all of the things Disney has been known for. The standards of the company are eroding, maybe to a point from which they cannot recover.

And yes, I know people have been complaining for years. I don't think it was ever at the level we are seeing now. Time will tell, it always does.
 
They have found a convoluted back door way to make people pay for FP+

?o_O

it seems many folks do not use them and it is not a deciding factor to stay onsite. EMH costs lots of money to operate and since most guests are riding, not shopping - they make no money.

I don't know that this is true. It is one of the factors for us (although not early morning - I don't do morning. Breakfast at WDW rarely happens before 8 am and is at least an hour) and I doubt that we're the only ones who do consider EMH to be a factor in deciding to stay onsite. We do go to evening EMH and we do often shop at that time and I see plenty of people in the shops buying. While many people on these boards post that EMH isn't a factor in staying onsite and don't use them, there are many, many rooms on site and the people here ara small percentage of that. Disney would also know exactly how many people take advantage of EMH so could well conclude that it is important to them.

I do, however, believe that EMH and EMM are targeting different markets and that both can co-exist. Whether Disney decides to do away with EMH will be seen over time. I'll worry about it if/when it happens.
 
The EMM thing is making me reconsider staying onsite actually. We are heavy users of the EMH in the morning, because the kids get up so early on vacation. If I can just pay for early access, I could stay offsite, and save quite a bit of money because I have 3 kids and the youngest is almost 2. I was already considering doing offsite next year and splitting time between Disney and Universal, and EMM may make that choice easier. I doubt that is Disney's goal, but it may be a game changer for some people.
 
?o_O



I don't know that this is true. It is one of the factors for us (although not early morning - I don't do morning. Breakfast at WDW rarely happens before 8 am and is at least an hour) and I doubt that we're the only ones who do consider EMH to be a factor in deciding to stay onsite. We do go to evening EMH and we do often shop at that time and I see plenty of people in the shops buying. While many people on these boards post that EMH isn't a factor in staying onsite and don't use them, there are many, many rooms on site and the people here ara small percentage of that. Disney would also know exactly how many people take advantage of EMH so could well conclude that it is important to them.

I do, however, believe that EMH and EMM are targeting different markets and that both can co-exist. Whether Disney decides to do away with EMH will be seen over time. I'll worry about it if/when it happens.

- While we are a small percentage of Disney visitors, I think the percentage of those who use and those who do not is probably about the same but in bigger numbers.
- At full occupancy there would be between maybe 100,000 and 130,000 (est) Disney guests and there would be a small fraction of that at each EMH, with MK being the busiest. That, along with how many say they don't use them, would lean towards a low usage of the EMH.
- It would be very difficult to tell during night EMH how many of those shopping are onsite guests and how many are just offsite guests who left their shopping until after the park closed since they can not ride. It actually is the perfect time for offsite guests to shop. Closing the rides but keeping the Main St and some other stores open might bring the same amount of income with less expense.
- Have a good friend in MK retail who supervises several locations and handles sales/money. Says EMH are boring for merchandise CMs and sales very low.
- Disney does know how many are using it, would also know how many (and if the same people) are willing to pay for EMM. I am staying onsite in August, I paid for EMM and while I love EMH, probably will not utilize.
- I agree they are targeted at two different markets; EMM is to market EMH to offsite guests and onsite who are willing to pay for some exclusivity for whatever reason.
- No one knows if they will stick around. They didn't exist at one time, then you had to pay for them and then they added them and now they have cut them back.
- They could offer 1 hour per park per week and still be able to say they offer an EMH.
- Wouldn't shock me at all if the bean counters determine it's a expense that isn't necessary, particularly the night hours. I don't think it will hurt them at all if they dropped as the EMM offer keeps getting added to parks.

All our talk is just armchair guessing, I personally don't care either way anymore since the hours offered are so few.
 
While I personally would probably not find EMM worth my money at present (not enough rides/not enough rides that interest me), I can really see the appeal. The inclusion of breakfast helps; makes it feel like more of a special event. Theoretically they could expand it by opening more rides and more buffet lines as they sell more tickets, too; as long as they more or less maintain the current ratio of guests to ride capacity (and keep the focus on popular rides so the crowds don't collect in one place), it wouldn't lose its exclusivity.

Whether the demand is "artificial," or Disney's fault, or whatever, the fact remains that there is demand for a low-crowd park experience, and it makes perfect business sense for Disney to tap into it. I don't believe that Disney is to "blame" any more than guests are to "blame" for the demand existing. Did I wish I could play around in the park with next to no one else there back before it was an option? You bet your butt I did! There didn't need to be PPO ride access from PPO ADRs for me to learn that I wanted that; it was kind of a no brainer ever since I was a kid that it'd be great to go to Disney World and not have to wait in line for everything. The PPO ADR thing happened because people saw an opportunity to get something most of them had probably already wanted for years, and it makes a heck of a lot more sense for Disney to sell them what they actually want than to try to sell them PPO breakfasts they either rush through or skip entirely despite the no-show charge.

Actually, being engrossed in the Disney bubble seems to be the biggest factor that leads people to choose staying onsite. That's evident in many people's refusal to stay at Swan/Dolphin, which are very nice resort's, in a fantastic location, for the price of a Disney moderate or less & do include EMH.

Slightly off topic, but the tipping point that has me not wanting to stay at the Dolphin again wasn't a loss of Disney bubble -- I actually felt more in the thick of things there than I ever did at the values or moderates I've visited. It was the fact that I honestly didn't feel I was getting the same value I would at a Disney resort because the Magical Express was not included and we had a "resort fee" tacked on to our bill (and if we'd had a car we would have had to pay to park it). EMH were more awkward to navigate, too, because our resort reservations were not associated with Magic Bands and it took longer to get our room cards verified at attraction entrances than it did for other guests, and that does factor into my overall decision to avoid Swan and Dolphin even if it wasn't my main issue with the experience.
 
While I enjoy them and a huge plus to my onsite stays - it seems many folks do not use them and it is not a deciding factor to stay onsite. EMH costs lots of money to operate and since most guests are riding, not shopping - they make no money. Eliminating them would be a great way to trim the budget. Disney is under no obligation to keep them and they will do what is best for business.

I'm not your typical DISer, but I probably am closer to demographic Disney actually seems to go for. We're once every few years visitors. EMH was not a deciding factor on our first trip (for either DH or I since we were 10 and there was no Epcot). We just wanted to be in the bubble, not have to drive, and we wanted the dining plan. The deciding factor for our first visit that made us finally book after putting it off for a few years, was FP+. EMH were a bonus. For our next trip (Sept. 2017), again, EMH aren't a deciding factor. We want the transportation, the dining plan, and a great pool. When I plan ADRs I will plan based on published hours, not history, not what I feel Disney owes me, not what I feel should be because that's what I think is best for operations. My FPs will be done the same. If hours get extended in either direction after all that is said and done, so be it. Changing from a 10pm close to an 11 doesn't change a single thing about my plans except that maybe we can spend another (bonus to us because it wasn't there when we planned to go) hour in the park if DD is up to it.

Slightly off topic, but the tipping point that has me not wanting to stay at the Dolphin again wasn't a loss of Disney bubble -- I actually felt more in the thick of things there than I ever did at the values or moderates I've visited. It was the fact that I honestly didn't feel I was getting the same value I would at a Disney resort because the Magical Express was not included and we had a "resort fee" tacked on to our bill (and if we'd had a car we would have had to pay to park it). EMH were more awkward to navigate, too, because our resort reservations were not associated with Magic Bands and it took longer to get our room cards verified at attraction entrances than it did for other guests, and that does factor into my overall decision to avoid Swan and Dolphin even if it wasn't my main issue with the experience.

The lack of MDE and dining plan put us off from Swolphin. We would have loved to stay there, and staying there for our next trip would guarantee us purchasing hoppers, but without those other two options, it's not at all an option for our family.
 
We always stay on site and have never utilized morning EMH. It just never even factored in for us. We would stay on site regardless. I get irritable having to take a bus "all the way" from AKL sometimes when we stay there. I can't imagine wanting to stay off site and drive/park each day. Blah. That just isn't relaxing for us...it's never had anything to do EMH.
 
I have read thread after thread on here that say Disney is targeting the wealthy and that price increases are the way they are thinning the crowds, etc. This not my opinion. I understand that their aim is anyone willing to pay. I am saying I do not agree with the way they are operating. I am saying that things are getting out of hand when a new "premium, exclusive experience" (and I have to type that tongue in cheek) is announced every other week. If everything is so hunky dory with operations that the aim is to lower crowd levels by charging more money as the current popular opinion holds-why all of the cutbacks? Why are there less hours? Why is ride capacity being reduced? Why are they not adding hours and CM's to handle the hordes descending on the parks? Why are they not adding meets and greets and more entertainment rather than removing characters and taking away attractions? Why are the parks not in the pristine condition they were in back in the '90's and early '00's if they are indeed so profitable -can they not use some of these profits for upkeep? I was appalled by some of the conditions we witnessed on our trip this winter. Why have they not expanded the parks before this if that was really the issue? What company in the history of the world ever decided they wanted LESS customers? Why would they not be IMPROVING everything about their product-just like Walt would have wanted -instead of diminishing it? To me, this all smacks of a money grab-plain and simple. Not a company that cares about the guest experience anymore but a company looking to wring every dollar out of a fire sale.


Just because I can afford it does not mean that I think that the "regular folk" should be priced out. I like mixing with the rabble every once in a while, it keeps me humble ;) (.....that was also a joke). Why would they not look to include MORE families at all price points instead of downgrading the experience for everyone? I understand that there are people able to pay for high end experiences but just because you are able does not mean you are willing. A fireworks cruise does not reduce the impact of the fireworks for everyone else just like a signature meal does not make a CS meal taste any different. A deluxe resort does not change the quality of the stay in a value resort. This is not a high end experience, unlike the tours and fireworks cruises and signature restaurants and deluxe resorts (well, to Disney they are deluxe but not when compared to the real world but that is a whole other thread). It is an hour of park time to ride and do things that your regular ticket should enable you to do without having to endure ridiculous waits intentionally caused by Disney and a more than likely mediocre breakfast. It is an hour of park time that will not be added to the schedule and included with regular park tickets to help reduce the effects of the crowds. It is making people pay twice for something-regular ticket plus extra ticket for what are in effect pay FP's. The more these types of upsell events are added, the more they are going to take away from the "regular" park experience-it is not a huge leap to state that. It is a not so gradual chiseling away of all of the things Disney has been known for. The standards of the company are eroding, maybe to a point from which they cannot recover.

And yes, I know people have been complaining for years. I don't think it was ever at the level we are seeing now. Time will tell, it always does.

While I appreciate your passion, I think your premise is incorrect. You're throwing out a bunch of accusations that aren't really supported and aren't really true. There's very little -- if any -- evidence of ride capacity being reduced. If anything, with a new Soarin screen and another track at TSMM, ride capacity has been increased. There's no real evidence of cutbacks in staffing -- I know there's annectdotal conversations, but I haven't heard anyone really suggest that staffing has been cut, except for the guy who calls himself an "insider" and suggested a 20 percent cut that never actually materialized (if youw an tto Google it, check the sources quoted in the stories. it's the same guy). I think there are fewer open M&Gs for the same reason there's less on-site entertainment -- there are too many people visiting, and those things cause pedestrian jams. And aside from the standby of "Well, they should just make it bigger with better rides like Universal did," these situations are fairly unavoidable. There's a limited amount of space inside, and anything outside clogs walkways (especially when you have people who start sitting down to reserve parade/firework seating two hours ahead of the show).

The reason they might want less customers is simple physical limitation -- rides have a maximum capacity. They have a time limitation attached to them. you can only fit six people on a Space Mountain rocket, only two can ride on a Dumbo. And just as rides have capacity, so do restaurants and walkways. MK wasn't designed to handle 55,000 people each and every day. So of course there are crowds and of course there are lines. But in the last six years MK has opened New Fantasyland, adding two rides, doubling the capacity of Dumbo, a giant new restaurant and an interactive show. Also a double M&G hall. And they've made the PP line more tolerable. Those are things that may not seem significant when you look at the overkill that is Diagon Alley, but there's actually more to do in NFL (unless you want to buy stuff. Lots of ways to buy stuff in HPLand). And they get no credit for it because people who are posting don't happen to like those rides. That's all fair to do, but it's unfair to say they've done nothing, when in fact they've done a lot.

So when you say they aren't improving, let me ask you this: what other theme park gives you, included with the price of admission, the chance to reserve rides and times? Not an Express Pass tat can double the price of admission, not an add-on, but the chance to enter the park and know that these three things are going to be available to you without a wait. And once you use those three, you can add more. Who else does that? You may have preferred the frantic pace of FP-, and that's fine, but it's hard to suggest the intent wasn't to improve the guest experience for a majority of the visitors.

On to upkeep. It's the crowds, man. it's just the crowds. It's hard to stay diligent in trash removal and street sweeping when you're dodging 55,000 people each and every day. It's hard to maintain restrooms that weren't designed to handle as many people as they do. It's hard for CMs to remain smiley and upbeat all the time when every time they aren't -- for whatever reason -- someone is there to call them on it, file a complaint or kvetch on Facebook.

And the 90s weren't all that great. The early 2000s, when none of us was really sure what the world was going to look like in a decade, was easy to explain. Fewer people. Fewer people means an easier to maintain park. But the people came back, and then came back, and then came back, and suddenly they're up to 20 million a year. 20 million is hard to manage -- that's about the population of Austria, Switzerland and Ireland combined. A lot of people go through those gates.

One last thing: These extra events are designed for a single purpose -- to allow those people to whom a certain thing is VERY important the chance to do it. If you want to ride 7DMT but couldn't reserve a ride, EMM gives you the chance. If you want to see the fireworks without having to plan your day around it and sit on a curb for two hours, the desert parties give you the chance. You say they take away from the regular guest experience, and I don't think there's any proof of that happening. Unless you want to make the case that staking out a place to watch the fireworks is part of the regular guest experience. What all of these changes have done is take away the inherent advantage of knowing what you are doing -- evening up the playing field for everyone, and take away the advantages park knowledge gave. And you know why? because the park knowledge became common knowledge. Rope Drop used to be a cute little opening show; now it's a madhouse. Back in the nostalgic times you rasp about, maybe a few people grabbed a place to watch the fireworks a half-hour early. Now the streets are lined 120 minutes out. In order to make sure everyone had a good time, they had to limit some people's ability to have a splendiferous time. If you're one of the people who lost out, that sucks. But most people didn't, because now they all have the chance to maximize their experience. You may think it an upsell or a rip off, but the only currency that works to restrict access is, well, currency. The only way to give those few people who want a deserted park in the morning that deserted park in the morning is to make it cost more than the average person wants to pay. Same thing with the fireworks seating, or the cruise or any of them. WDW thinks they have no other way to limit event crowding other than to charge for things.

And i think they are right. After all, the name of this subforum is "Strategies." We are all of us trying to maximize our vacation experience, and one thing that has been proven, if Disney doesn't charge -- and in some cases overcharge -- everything gets crowded very quick.

Sorry for the length. Kind of fun to write, though. :)
 
as well as the evening extra hours opportunities (if they bring that back as well ) because if we don't , if Disney can get people to pay for extra time in the parks in any kind of significant numbers you will see them phase out EMH for resort guests . They already cut the evening EMH from 3 hours to 2 a couple of years ago . This is them testing the waters so it is important that this test FAILS so we can keep EMH for WDW resort guests . I know nothing is guarenteed and nothing is forever but if this program is a success I fear EMH will in a year or so be nothing but a memory .

Nope, just nope.

I'm travelling all the way from Australia and if I think it is worth my money and going to be an enjoyable experience for my family, then I'll pay for it, and if I don't, I won't pay for it. But I sure as hell won't boycott something because it might or might no change operations in the future. Who knows, even if these are unsuccessful and don't continue (and I'm guessing they're not since they are expanding!) they could still take away EMH or any other perk that isn't cost effective for Disney.

Live in the moment, enjoy each trip and stop worrying about what Disney might do to you.
 












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