"Black Lives Matter" - it's stupid. Just cut the crap.....

[kamik86]

Also to address the "Hands up, don't shoot" thing. While most people understand that this isn't literal, and it did not actually happen in the Michael Brown case it remains an important narrative because this is how many minorities have to deal with the police and how they teach their children to deal with the police.

Put your hands in the air. Keep them visible at all times. Keep your head down as not to seem challenging or aggressive. Answer only "Yes, sir" or "No, sir." and if you are under age don't talk without a parent present.

The sad fact is when an 18 year old white man is interacting with the police and scratches his butt, it is because his butt itches. When an 18 year old minority man interacts with the police and scratches his butt he is, potentially, reaching for a weapon and deserves to be shot.

Also, just look at the title of this thread. The thought that black lives matter is "stupid" and "crap."

Black parents aren't the only ones that teach their kids this. I have no reason to fear the police yet I was taught the same thing. The "Yes sir" "no sir" I was taught as respecting authority. Police offiers were not the only ones I was taught to answer that way. I was also taught that cops have hard jobs and sometimes they make mistakes so I don't want to do anything that might make them nervious or think I have a weapon because they may make a mistake and shoot. That although that isn't ok that you should do your best to ensure mistakes don't happen too. In my case it wasn't hands up but hands in plane site (generally on the wheel as in a car has still been the only place I have ever been stopped by a cop.

As for getting stopped for being black in a white neighborhood. My sister was once stopped for being white in a black neighborhood (work trip before GPS and she got a bit lost and ended up in a residental neighborhood. It is common knowledge in one place in my area you are 3 times more likely to be stopped if you have out of state plates espeically for speeding. I have been stopped on a miltary base for driving a mustang into a work area (I had authorization but only company cars are allowed in, rental cars count and I had been upgraded for free that trip). People make generalizations of what is common in an area all the time and things that are uncommon are going to get attention.

The idea that black lives matter isn't stupid and crap the idea that a group of people are claiming mistreatment yet segrating themselves is stupid and crap. A slogan like "All lives matter" gives the mesage that these people are just that people and they should matter just as much as anyone else.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I fully admit I have not read much of the thread. It started while I was at camporee with Girl Scouts and was almost 20 pages when I first saw it. I read a couple of pages, was surprised it is still going and disapointed in what felt to me like some clear and open racist comments and then skipped up to the last page, lacking the stomach for the whole thing, given that replying to older posts would seen silly, and I feel limited in how I can reply or what I can say with the ban on politics being so sporadically enforced. I DO think it is important to have open and honest conversations and that doing so is the best way to move forward---but I do not feel those can be had when the participants can be bannned from the conversation for talking "politics" at whatever point someone thinks it suddenly crosses some very fuzzy line. So, with that, I am going to try to tread very carefully while saying a few things I want to say in reply to some of hte more recent comments:

I think the whole tone of thread starts of with the OP, which I do feel is written quite disrespectfully. The OP did not say they disagree with the Black Lives Matter movement or feel that the focus should be on all lives, etc--the OP directly stated the movement was "stupid" and "crap" which stirkes me as disrepctful language about other's ideas and the tone, as far as I read, continued from there.

Personally, from viewing things through the lense of a middle class, middle aged white woman:

I think ALL lives do matter but I think we have very deep and pervasive predjudices and systemic issues within our society which result in minority lives, most espeically black ones, being treated as if they matter far less in our country than white ones do--and that IS a huge problem and that DOES need addressing.

Yes, black on black crime is awful and needs addressed. As does white on white crime, etc----but at the end of the day, we can see clearly, over and over again, that black people are more likely to be injured than white in similar circumstances with police. We can see a HUGE tendency to charge black people more often, more heavily and then sentence with longer sentences, for identical crimes to their white counterparts. We even see huge disparities in how white school children are punished versus their black counterparts and how white criminals are protrayed in the media versus black ones (look at the type of photographs used first, the "records" printed--is it the criminal history or the GPA and sports sucesses you are hearing about?, etc).
NONE of this is about one case, or a couple--it is a much deeper, overall societal trend that is so deeply ingrained that many do not even realize it and lots of "good guys" of all colors participate in it without even meaning to.

Personally, I am not looking for bad guys and for scape goats who can let us feel we found them, weeded them out and all is now well. I wish it were that easy, but it is not. It is deep, and systemic and we really need to talk about it and find the various roots and proactively work to change things--which is going to include training officers and prosecutors and judges to recognize their biases and try to actively work against them to be more balanced (as, I believe, the Dallas force has been doing a good job of), and notcing when the media reports in biased ways and pressuring them to stop, and working on providing equally good schooling to ALL children, regardless of race or family income, and having more movies and TV shows with minority stars in them (espeically stories which do not focus only on racial divides, etc but just about normal people, who do not all happen to be white, doing normal things--or super heros who are not white as the lead sometimes, etc), and, and, and.

it is a big, thorny issue with lots of work needed to undo it--but if we cannot even agree that there is a problem, in spite of mountains of evidence that there is,or if we insist on looking for "bad guys" instead of recognizing we are all part of the problem and can all be part of the solution, well, we are really going to struggle to ever get ahold of it.

I really know next to nothing about the leadership of the Black Lives Matter movement or their tactics--but I know I feel using the phrase does not mean anyone thinks other lives do not matter--it sounds like there is an implicit "too" at the end and it is in reposnse to so much happening which does not seem to value those black lives in the same way white ones are valued. And I know a dialouge (and much more) needs to happen about race in our country. And i know violence is, IMO, never a good answer.

 

[PollyannaMom]

The moderator stated this would be a way to open dialogue but if I'm being honest, the majority of posters don't seem to feel unchanged about their previous feelings. Myself included.

I agree that I haven't changed my initial belief that the BLM protests are counter-productive. But that's simply because I'm uncomfortable with violence (or anything extreme) and don't think it's the way to solve problems.

But I have learned a lot from reading this thread! The stories of "driving while black" are heartbreaking, and I am grateful that people who have experienced it were willing to share their stories here. I didn't know how frequently that happened, and now I do.

I believe there is still racism in this country. But I don't think throwing bricks and fireworks to get attention is the way to fix it. In fact, I think it draws exactly the wrong kind of attention - reinforcing (to those looking for an excuse) the very stereotypes it is trying to eradicate.

I think the way to lessen racism is to spend time together. Maybe people wouldn't jump to conclusions about all black people, or all white people, or all Hispanic people if they knew more black, or white, or Hispanic individuals personally. If someone looks only like the criminal in your favorite TV show, you're going to be scared of him until you stop and think, but if he looks like the guy you play cards with every week, you're not going to have that same reaction. Lets have white police officers go into minority schools and read to the kids. Let's present more minorities on TV not as comedy characters in "the hood" but as successful professionals who are driving those nice cars through those nice neighborhoods. Let's get people together on a small scale.

I know it probably sounds naïve and childish to some people, but I really think our core beliefs are more influenced by our real-life experiences than by broad theories and hashtags.

 

[Madame]

Through sabotage and blackmail? If their purpose is to make ALM, they're going about it in the wrong way IMO.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/black-lives-matter-toronto-pride-parade-1.3663659

The LGTB community & police are rebuilding their relationship after some very bad crap in the 80s.

This is extortion - why in the world would you try to promote your own cause by denying the rights of another minority group to raise awareness/celebrate their own community??? SMH.

 

[pat fan]

I completely believe the "driving while black" stories, no question. I also do NOT believe that the police in our country are out targeting young black men for execution.

Sure there are some bad apple cops, no question, and the PD's need to be better about weeding them out. BUT, BLM is not helping their cause with throwing rocks & bricks at police, screaming in their faces, blocking roads.

It has been my experience that once people start screaming, others stop listening. I DO understand that people are frustrated, but MLK was trying to change something much bigger than this and he did it peacefully. Maybe BLM protesters need to look to the pledge that MLK had people sign before they went out protesting. Might go a long way towards helping them be heard.
http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/commitment-card/

 

[Kimberlyann11]

I highly doubt they'll close it. As an African American, I'm definitely shocked and slightly offended at some of the things that have been said here.
I think some posters and even the moderators may not even realize that some of what has been said was prejudice/racist.

The moderator stated this would be a way to open dialogue but if I'm being honest, the majority of posters don't seem to feel unchanged about their previous feelings. Myself included.

I've decided I'm officially done with this discussion... I have to defend myself enough everyday, I never thought I'd have to defend myself here too.

*Shrugs*

Nelly - for what it's worth, this discussion has swung me over a bit to the pro-BLM side. I think my problem was that I was missing the implied "too" at the end - and also the fact that they were using Michael Brown as a poster boy. My DD is very pro BLM and my typical response to her was "No lives matter". (as a joke - because she thinks I'm the most cynical person alive). Now I think I am starting to get it.

I let her read this thread and I thought her head was going to explode. lol

That being said - there were really better ways that I could have had my eyes opened then reading pages of political, thinly-veiled racism. It wouldn't break my heart if they closed it.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

It seems you disagree with the term powder keg. Ok. People have different intrepretations of words maybe that one doesn't work for you. That doesn't mean everything was fine and dandy though.

It's not just the term. It's this notion that the citizenry was so fed up with the police that they just needed a reason (or excuse) to fight back.

The reality is that while things weren't "fine & dandy", what went down in Ferguson was largely the result of outside influence.

 

[Disneylover99]

The LGTB community & police are rebuilding their relationship after some very bad crap in the 80s.

This is extortion - why in the world would you try to promote your own cause by denying the rights of another minority group to raise awareness/celebrate their own community??? SMH.

The Toronto based BLM group continues to spin their agenda as they see fit. Their demands of a total ban on police floats for next years pride parade does nothing to promote their cause in a positive manner.

 

[pat fan]

Their demands of a total ban on police floats for next years pride parade does nothing to promote their cause in a positive manner.

That's ridiculous.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Moderator, is there anyway this thread can be closed? As a African American, I personally feel that this thread is a form of hate speech. BLM started as a hashtag to bring awareness to the unnecessary violence, pro-filing, and unfair due justice of the court system and became a platform or movement to demand due process of the law. Not all people who associate with the BLM are right and some are plain wrong, but it doesn't detract from the fact that racial profiling and unfair due process of African American by police officers and the justice system exists. Until you live 1 day in our lives, how could you make that judgement and say that this issue doesn't exists. This forum is one of the only places I have left to escape from the daily humdrum life. Please dont let this thread become a platform for hate.

I haven't seen one person on here suggest the problem doesn't exist.

Rather, I've seen specific examples questioned, some of them for good reason. And honestly, this is one of the big issues with debates here on the Dis. Question one instance & suddenly you're accused of disbelieving the existence of other instances.

Just as we should always acknowledge the existence of racism and seek out those instances motivated by racism for justice, we should always be careful to identify those instances where it does NOT exist. Without the latter, there can be no legitimacy to the former.

The idea behind BLM is noble & the issue ongoing. The execution of BLM is unfortunately in the toilet.

 

[disneyjunkie]

That being said - there were really better ways that I could have had my eyes opened then reading pages of political, thinly-veiled racism. It wouldn't break my heart if they closed it.

That is the thing that bother me. It's one thing to allow a discussion to take place, but why allow the thinly veiled racism ?

This isn't new. Do a search here on any race issue that made national news. If there's a thread about it on the DIS, you will find it littered with thinly veiled racial/offensive commets.

 

[gwynne]

That is the thing that bother me. It's one thing to allow a discussion to take place, but why allow the thinly veiled racism ?

It's disturbing to me, but I think sometimes it's good be reminded it's out there. They find ways to dance around what they are saying, but it's still ugly.
Lots of work still to be done.

 

[Disneylover99]

That's ridiculous.

It is ridiculous.
It makes me wonder what their next move at the parade would have been if their demands had not been met.

 

[pat fan]

It's disturbing to me, but I think sometimes it's good be reminded it's out there. They find ways to dance around what they are saying, but it's still ugly.
Lots of work still to be done.

I think some of us are still waiting for the examples to be quoted. Granted, I don't think I have read every post, so I just wanted to see what I missed.

Granted, the title of the thread could have been said MUCH better, if that's what you're referring to.

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

It is ridiculous.
It makes me wonder what their next move at the parade would have been if their demands had not been met.

Thanks for the link.

Here is a further article showing Toronto Police investigating Black Lives Matter co founder Yusra Khogali who tweeted “Plz Allah give me strength to not cuss/kill these men and white folks out here today. Plz plz plz.”

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/08/cops-investigate-disturbing-facebook-post

 

[taitai]

I think the thing to remember is that Black Lives Matter is a peaceful movement. These were marches designed to be peaceful and to bring attention to a huge issue in the black community. If some opportunists decide to piggyback on the events and stir up trouble, that does not mean the organization or the event are bad. The sniper in Dallas had clearly been planning this for quite some time and took the BLM peaceful march as an opportunity. In fact, even the police chief of Dallas states quite clearly that he was in no way affiliated with BLM. This was just the event that had lots of police for him to target. To paint an entire movement as bad due to those who exploit it is unfair.

There were riots after Ohio State won the NCAA Championship in 2015 or a couple years earlier after the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup. Do we say that all Buckeye fans are thugs? Do we say that all Canadians are violent? No, we realistically see that few people took advantage and became incredibly violent and destructive.

In terms of BLM, Jesse Williams had a great quote that I will paraphrase. You don't get to criticize our solution if you were not equally critical of our problem. Don't criticize BLM as a solution if you were not equally critical of the systemic racism in the system to begin with.

 

[gwynne]

I think the thing to remember is that Black Lives Matter is a peaceful movement. These were marches designed to be peaceful and to bring attention to a huge issue in the black community. If some opportunists decide to piggyback on the events and stir up trouble, that does not mean the organization or the event are bad. The sniper in Dallas had clearly been planning this for quite some time and took the BLM peaceful march as an opportunity. In fact, even the police chief of Dallas states quite clearly that he was in no way affiliated with BLM. This was just the event that had lots of police for him to target. To paint an entire movement as bad due to those who exploit it is unfair.

There were riots after Ohio State won the NCAA Championship in 2015 or a couple years earlier after the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup. Do we say that all Buckeye fans are thugs? Do we say that all Canadians are violent? No, we realistically see that few people took advantage and became incredibly violent and destructive.

In terms of BLM, Jesse Williams had a great quote that I will paraphrase. You don't get to criticize our solution if you were not equally critical of our problem. Don't criticize BLM as a solution if you were not equally critical of the systemic racism in the system to begin with.

This. You explained it so well.

 

[asta]

If the BLM supporters want to be more respected and move their issues into actionable solutions they need to stop emotionally reacting to anecdotal evidence captured in someone's iPhone. And this is before all of the evidence is known. It is painfully obvious that each side interprets these videos to fit their agenda. This discussion about police violence needs to be rooted in actual facts, not the video of the moment. This analysis of the Washington Posts data is from a surprisingly good article from Clay Travis about what the focus should be:


Now it's certainly true that black people represent only 12-13% of the United States population and are twice that rate in the police killings, but according to FBI data in 2014 4,224 black men were arrested and charged with murder in this country. Meanwhile 3,807 white and Hispanic men were arrested and charged with murder. This means blacks were arrested for 51.3% of all murders in 2014 despite the fact that they represent just 12% of the population. Given that the black arrest rate for violent crime also exceeds 27%, black people are actually getting shot and killed less often when they're arrested than white and Hispanic people are.

Yet the only stories I've seen in the media and on social media have been about white police officers shooting black men. But that represents a tiny percentage of the overall police shootings.

So why are we focusing on such a tiny subset of police shootings? I suspect it's because the media has utilized black fear of white racism to increase TV ratings. That same black fear provokes an equally virulent response from white America, which accuses black America of blaming everything on racism. So we swing from one hashtag extreme to the other #blacklivesmatter to #alllivesmatter without most people ever taking the time to examine actual police shooting data.

That's unfortunate because it's led to a racial factionalization of an issue that shouldn't be about race at all -- every person of every race with a functional brain should be asking a significant question when they see this information: Why are police killing nearly a thousand people a year of all races? And what can we do to reduce that rate of violence?

 

[cabanafrau]

I think the thing you are missing is black lives matter doesn't automatically create a divide. It only creates a divide if you go looking for one and why would you do that unless you don't want to address the issues?
Like the previous poster said, when someone says cancer sucks, nobody jumps to the conclusion they are saying other diseases don't suck.
Saying black lives matter didn't really create any divide. The response of blue lives matter or all lives matter did. Those responses were a way to dismiss the issues black lives matter were trying to bring attention to.
Saying black lives matter doesn't become a one against the other. The responses are what do that.
If I say "we need to cure cancer". It's just a statement with no division, no putting cancer above anything else, just a statement about the need to cure cancer.
If you respond with "we need to cure aids", you're making it one against the other. You would be creating a separation because there's no other reason to respond that way unless you are trying to deflect from the need to cure cancer, disagree but don't want to say it or feel aids is more important and should come first.

I think what you're missing is that if the problems underlying are bias, prejudice and racism, you don't lead to a solution and a bridge over the chasm with language that divides on the very same basis. Think of it like you would if you were approaching a marketing campaign to sell a product or an event. You want to maximize the customer base for your product or event. You measure your message carefully to make sure there isn't any way to make anyone feel your product or your event isn't for them, won't suit them, whatever. You don't want prospective customers to look at your ad and say, eh, that's for dudes, I'm too old, that's for curvy women, that would look great on blondes, you have to be a six foot five beanpole to look good in that.

Black Lives Matter isn't garnering the support and the audience it should because it doesn't reflect why it's super important to everyone. Most people want to live in a community that's serviced by a solid police force -- same as we want to live in communities serviced by solid fire departments. Some people aren't getting the good solid police service they deserve. Plenty of people aren't understanding it because their service seems to work great, kind of like some people have wonky wifi service and their neighbors down the block with the same service have zero problems and don't think wonky service is a big issue. If the neighborhood all got together and threatened to leave the wifi provider unless the issues were fixed to deliver great service steadily to everyone the provider is likely to respond to address the issue instead of making customers wait until service is down completely.

Just because someone disagrees entirely with the premise of Black Lives Matter doesn't mean they're racist. Maybe it's more an understanding you don't defeat hate with hate or combat racism with a message that separates people racially. Isn't Black Lives Matter about removing a racial bias? If it really is, then why the need to acknowledge race at all? Shouldn't the message reflect how important it is to everyone that our police we charge with the responsibility to protect and serve all of us do exactly that? Let's face it, when we're in need of police service it's really important that they're there to do a good job. That is important to everyone.

 

[Patch'sD]

Do you live in the inner city? Do you attend church in an inner city? Do you take part in community services and/ or youth programs that are I the inner city? If the answer to all of these are no, please shut your mouth the "lack of outrage" in the inner cities. You don't live, teach, raise children here, so have no idea what you're talking about.

Believe it or not, some people can walk and chew gum at the same time. I'm outraged out the crime in my community, BAD cops killing young black men and women AND and the asses who target police officers.

Shut yours. Then do something about it. Look at your statement, Bad cops killing young black men and women. You make it sound like it's an epidemic. There are more white people killed in Police Actions yet you hear nothing about it. I am sorry, but black people are doing more crime and which makes increases the chance that the will be involved in a Police Action and maybe confront a bad cop. The two most recent police actions are bad. If those police are found guilty they should be punished justly. But the reaction so far is from two video's that may not tell the whole story. The cool calm collective women who choose to FB while her boyfriend laid dying choose a few days before to FB herself and boyfriend smoking a joint and showing off her breasts and crotch while her four year old daughter sat in the car seat in the back. Yet today she is some sort of hero. As was Dorian Johnson from Ferguson who's lies are no responsible for the "Hands Up, Don't shoot" chant. A mans life is ruined for doing his job for stopping a thug on the street that just robbed a store. What about the Freddie Grey case, three out of three of the trials of the six police officers charged failed to get a conviction. They failed to convict the driver of the van. There is a good chance that all six officers will be cleared.

Crime is in every community. And we all have to do something about it. I live close to high crime areas but I am not in the inner city. but we have a neighborhood watch to make sure our area is safe. Watch Rudy Giuliani's interview on Face the Nation yesterday, I agree with everything he has to say.