"Black Lives Matter" - it's stupid. Just cut the crap.....

[Disneylover99]

I think the thing to remember is that Black Lives Matter is a peaceful movement.

Maybe in theory.
But dropping smoke bombs, holding a parade hostage after being made the grand marshals of the parade and denying the police a presence suggests otherwise.

 

[cabanafrau]

I don't believe that I said that it would be solved by executing police. Police misuse of authority is (IMO) something everyone should be concerned about. There are too many people that either !. don't see a problem because they are not directly affected or 2. Don't care about about a problem because they are not directly affected. I also don't believe that the #blacklivesmatter movement creates an us vs. them mindset. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Police misuse of authority absolutely is an issue that is vitally important to everyone, or at least it should be. That's exactly why Black Lives Matter stinks as a message. A, it makes a bunch of the listening audience think the message isn't intended for them. B, it doesn't clue in the part of the clueless listening audience to the fact the message is important to them. C, it doesn't point towards a solution. D, it simply creates a further divide.

I hated all of my marketing classes in college and I don't love it, but something like Police Justice for All or Police Justice Equally Important for All do a better job of pointing your listeners to exactly what the goal is -- and includes everyone with the feeling they have an ownership stake in the outcome. Some people don't pay attention to the stop cancer campaigns either if they don't have it, haven't had a family member with it or feel closely touched by it. If you want people to pay attention to a message and give some support the best way is to make them feel a part of it. You definitely don't want to give anyone a reason not to want to support your goal. Even police should support a message asking for police justice because it also validates their role. What's wrong with trying to make a situation win/win all the way around in a way that everyone can understand?

 

[TLSnell1981]

There are many stops for "driving while (fill in the blank)". Happens everyday...has for many, many years. Most don't go viral and provoke riots...never see or hear of the incidents. Thanks to 24 hour news cycles and the Internet, it's quite easy to "report" the "outrage of the day". Lather, rinse, repeat...

 

[NHdisneylover]

Now it's certainly true that black people represent only 12-13% of the United States population and are twice that rate in the police killings, but according to FBI data in 2014 4,224 black men were arrested and charged with murder in this country. Meanwhile 3,807 white and Hispanic men were arrested and charged with murder. This means blacks were arrested for 51.3% of all murders in 2014 despite the fact that they represent just 12% of the population. Given that the black arrest rate for violent crime also exceeds 27%, black people are actually getting shot and killed less often when they're arrested than white and Hispanic people are.

Things we also know:

black people are much more likely to be arrested and held for hte same crimes (or lack of crime) than their white counter parts.
Black people are much more likely to be charged in similar circumstances than white, and more likely to be charged with heavier charges and found guilty and given higher sentences (including to serve jail time rather than probation or fines) than white counter parts.

so that alone skews the stastics, doesn't it?

and then we know that there is an extremly high rate of recitivism in this country, and that "low risk/non violent" criminals often come out of jail much higher risk and more likely to be violent--so simply jailing the black kids cuaght with pot and not their white counterparts means we are contributing to the problem of more black men involved in violent crime (after learning to do so in prison, and losing faith in society, and losing the ability to get decent jobs beucase they were in jail previously etc) than white people (who might have doen the same thing as teens but not been put in jail).

now add in that in nearly every state the rates of black people living in poverty are at least double that of white (often more) and let's look at how poverty and economic difference affect crime and how that affects the childhood and education of people before they are even old enough to havem much of any say in their own lives and we start to get to the roots of many of these problems---you know, where we are OK with letting poor people (which affects black and hispanic people at much higher rates to this day in our country) grow up with violence, not enough food, sub par schools, dirty water, lack of access to good public tranist or afforadble fresh groceries, etc and you see how pervasive the issue really is and how difficult it can be to "escape"

We do know, from many studies that even black officers and black judges tend to see other black people as more likely to be guilty of a crime based on same evidence, and more likely to be a threat, etc---which once again points to how pervasive and all emcompassing this attitude is in our daily lives to such a point that we truly do not see it or intend it, it is just there--which is the point--that needs addressed. It it can't be addressed by people who refuse to see it and keep trying to inssit all the problems come solely from within that smaller community in our society.

 

[disneyjunkie]

Shut yours. Then do something about it. Look at your statement, Bad cops killing young black men and women. You make it sound like it's an epidemic. There are more white people killed in Police Actions yet you hear nothing about it. I am sorry, but black people are doing more crime and which makes increases the chance that the will be involved in a Police Action and maybe confront a bad cop. The two most recent police actions are bad. If those police are found guilty they should be punished justly. But the reaction so far is from two video's that may not tell the whole story. The cool calm collective women who choose to FB while her boyfriend laid dying choose a few days before to FB herself and boyfriend smoking a joint and showing off her breasts and crotch while her four year old daughter sat in the car seat in the back. Yet today she is some sort of hero. As was Dorian Johnson from Ferguson who's lies are no responsible for the "Hands Up, Don't shoot" chant. A mans life is ruined for doing his job for stopping a thug on the street that just robbed a store. What about the Freddie Grey case, three out of three of the trials of the six police officers charged failed to get a conviction. They failed to convict the driver of the van. There is a good chance that all six officers will be cleared.

Crime is in every community. And we all have to do something about it. I live close to high crime areas but I am not in the inner city. but we have a neighborhood watch to make sure our area is safe. Watch Rudy Giuliani's interview on Face the Nation yesterday, I agree with everything he has to say.

I am doing something about it. I grew up and still live in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn, NY. I teach in the East New York section. I work with youth programs in several black communities..... so please stop with the blacks aren't doing anything to change what is going on in our communities.

 

[asta]

Things we also know:

black people are much more likely to be arrested and held for hte same crimes (or lack of crime) than their white counter parts.
Black people are much more likely to be charged in similar circumstances than white, and more likely to be charged with heavier charges and found guilty and given higher sentences (including to serve jail time rather than probation or fines) than white counter parts.

so that alone skews the stastics, doesn't it?

and then we know that there is an extremly high rate of recitivism in this country, and that "low risk/non violent" criminals often come out of jail much higher risk and more likely to be violent--so simply jailing the black kids cuaght with pot and not their white counterparts means we are contributing to the problem of more black men involved in violent crime (after learning to do so in prison, and losing faith in society, and losing the ability to get decent jobs beucase they were in jail previously etc) than white people (who might have doen the same thing as teens but not been put in jail).

now add in that in nearly every state the rates of black people living in poverty are at least double that of white (often more) and let's look at how poverty and economic difference effect crime and how that affects the childhood and education of people before they are even old enough to havem uch of any say in their own lives and we start to get to the roots of many of these problems---you know, where we are OK with letting poor people (which affects black and hispanic people at much higher rates to this day in our country) grow up with violence, not enough food, sub par schools, dirty water, lack of access to good public tranist or afforadble fresh groceries, etc and you see how pervasive the issue really is and how difficult it can be to "escape"

We do know, from many studies that even black officers and black judges tend to see other black people as more likely to be guilty of a crime based on same evidence, and more likely to be a threat, etc---which once again points to how pervasive and all emcompassing this attitude is in our daily lives ti such a point that we truly do not see it or intend it, it is just there--which is the point--that needs addressed. It it can't be addressed by people who refuse to see it.

Not disputing any of your numbers or needs in other areas. But the point in the article I quoted is to address police violence and to say that the real measure of whether police violence is racially disportionate should not be measured against the racial make up of the general population but against the racial make up of actual police encounters.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Not disputing any of your numbers or needs in other areas. But the point in the article I quoted is to address police violence and to say that the real measure of whether police violence is racially disportionate should not be measured against the racial make up of the general population but against the racial make up of actual police encounters.

but that ignors the idea that police are actually more likely to have an encounter with certain races simply beucase of the race in the first place.

That is the problem--none of this is as simple as any one stat

 

[asta]

but that ignors the idea that police are actually more likely to have an encounter with certain races simply beucase of the race in the first place.

That is the problem--none of this is as simple as any one stat

I agree that may be a problem that needs to be addressed but the outrage and violence that we are seeing now is a rush to judgement over shootings by arresting police officers.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I agree that may be a problem that needs to be addressed but the outrage and violence that we are seeing now is a rush to judgement over shootings by arresting police officers.

some of what is oging on now is that--but much (most, IMO) of it is about the whole system--and dimissing all the protests, especially the many peaceful ones, as all just violent and anti police isn't right or fair, IMO (like, look at the Dallas protest inwhich officers and protesters were mostly working well together and enjoying the day and respecting one another and taking photos together, etc--then an awful situation occurred, but that was certianly not the reason for or point behind the protest from most poeple's perpesctives). For many protestors, it is baout working WITH the police to retrain and heal relationships iwth the community so that everyone both feels and IS safer and that safety is not more for just some races or economic brackets. FUnny--I know lots of people who feel strongly about protecting both black lives in our ysytem, and police lives. I am one of those people. I know many black people who have no close ties to police officers who believe strongly in being bale to have police forces that are safe to do their jobs and I know some white police officers and all of the few i know beleive black lives matter and that changes need to be made within the system. It does not have to be some weird "us against them" thing and I hate seeing people try to turn it into that.

and videos of certain cases going around seem to be the only thing that even get some people to consider opening their eyes to ongoing racial issues--it is not as if people haven't been trying to get this noticed and talked baout for at least my entire life

 

[FlightlessDuck]

See, the thing is, the "_____ Lives Matter" movements are for people who represent that group and see the problems and dangers that exist for that group of people. But they aren't mutually exclusive, which I think is the big problem some people are having. To me, it's no different than any other community action group. Sherpas lives matter too, but they have a whole different host of issues involving their safety than African-Americans or the Police. Same with the LGTB community.

Black Lives Matter actually started after the acquital of George Zimmerman, although its focus is on what it sees as the unneeded death of members of the black community by law enforcement.

Blue Lives Matter started after the murder of NYPD officers Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Li in Brooklyn in December, 2014. Officers Ramos and Li were murdered by Ismaaiyl Abdullah Brinsley, who tried to kill himself that very morning, but instead shot his girlfrield, Shaneka Nicole Thompson, and then went outside to hunt down police officers to kill "in retaliation". The problem is that the Black Lives Movement at large didn't condone this action by this mentally unstable man. But the Blue Lives Matter group started and used the same basic name phrasiology, which does look like it's at opposition to the original group.

Regardless, saying "All Lives Matter" misses the point. This (probably) isn't about you. This isn't about me. I am not a Sherpa, so I'm not going to be subject to the same dangers as a sherpa. I'm not homosexual, so I am not going to have the same dangers as a homosexual. I'm not black, so I'm not going to have the same dangers as someone who is black. I'm also not a police officer.

If you are a police officer, or the family of one, you understand the dangers that you face. You have entire fraternities devoted to helping your brothers and sisters deal with those issues. That's what this is.

#SoftwareDeveloperLivesMatter?

 

[pat fan]

Regardless, saying "All Lives Matter" misses the point. This isn't about you. This isn't about me. I am not a Sherpa, so I'm not going to be subject to the same dangers as a sherpa. I'm not homosexual, so I am not going to have the same dangers as a homosexual. I'm not black, so I'm not going to have the same dangers as someone who is black. I'm also not a police officer.

So aren't we back to "All Lives Matter"? If black lives matter, blue lives matter, LGBT lives matter, sherpa's lives matter...I mean, really. We are all God's children and all lives truly do matter. Division along racial, employment or any other line is counter productive to me. That in no way minimizes wrong doing by police or anyone else. That needs to be addressed and a stop put to it, but creating more division is not going to accomplish it.

 

[JimMIA]

The problem with BLM is not their goal of preventing police abuse of power. That's a fine goal, and some of the strongest real supporters of that goal are the police themselves -- for the simple reason that it's in their best interests as well.

The problem with BLM is they fail because they have no strategy to achieve their goal.

They just make noise in ways that turn off those they are trying to convince -- blocking parades that honor them as Grand Marshals, protest after protest ending with the enduring public impression being disruption and violence. BLM is not helping. Worse than not helping a good cause, BLM is having a negative effect because they have no roadmap of where they want to go.

Noise is easy to make. Change is much more difficult and is accomplished by people doing the real work (like disneyjunkie above).

If your police department needs reform, reform your police department!

Creating violent disruptions is not a sensible plan to make that happen. Violence makes change more difficult, often impossible. It just turns people off, tunes them out, closes their minds, and you lose the support you must have to effect change.

Go to your police chief and state your case. Go to your city council, state your case, and offer sensible, constructive proposals for improvement. Vote them out of office if they're not responsive. You won't be an Internet legend, but you might just accomplish something worthwhile.

 

[asta]

I promise that I am not doing PR work for Dallas Police Chief but he is on CNN giving another intelligent, reasoned press conference. I predict that he will have many offers beyond this job. The saddest thing though he just said that he and his family have received death threats since the tragedy in Dallas. The problem with using emotions to incite people is that you can't prevent those same emotions from inciting the crazies out there.

 

[NHdisneylover]

So aren't we back to "All Lives Matter"? If black lives matter, blue lives matter, LGBT lives matter, sherpa's lives matter...I mean, really. We are all God's children and all lives truly do matter. Division along racial, employment or any other line is counter productive to me. That in no way minimizes wrong doing by police or anyone else. That needs to be addressed and a stop put to it, but creating more division is not going to accomplish it.

yes--all lives matter, but our system is currently rigged to make it much harder for blacks to be as successful in their lives and much more likely for them to lose their lives in a variety of ways--thus we need reminders that Black Lives Matter (too, or just as much as other lives, etc) in ways that we do not need reminders about white lives.

It is sort of like why Gay pride events make sense (that group is often trageted, has historically been denied many rights, etc) but straight pride events are not needed or productive--straight people have not had to fight for their rights or been highly likely to be victims of crime just for being straight, etc.

Same thing, different group not being treated fairly, thus the need to highlight that and work towards trating that group well so that, in the end, we are acting as if all lives really do matter

 

[FlightlessDuck]

So aren't we back to "All Lives Matter"?

What will the All Lives Matter group do? Who is the president of that activist network? What will it hold protests for? Are their different subcommittees? How does that work? Why should it work? Would the "All Lives Matter" group protest at abortion clinics? Executions? In front of tobacco companies? When mining companies ignore safety regulations and miners die?

Isn't there a difference between the words "all lives matter" and the actual "Black Lives Matter" and "Blue Lives Matter" lobbying groups? Would it be better if they were called "The Association of African-Americans for Not Getting Killed By Police" and the "Fraternal Order of Not Ambushing the Police"?

 

[asta]

Go to your police chief and state your case. Go to your city council, state your case, and offer sensible, constructive proposals for improvement. Vote them out of office if they're not responsive. You won't be an Internet legend, but you might just accomplish something worthwhile.

I so wish and I hope that the demonstrators energy will be directed that way. Our country would be much stronger if they show up and participate in government instead of just protesting against it.

 

[cabanafrau]

Things we also know:

black people are much more likely to be arrested and held for hte same crimes (or lack of crime) than their white counter parts.
Black people are much more likely to be charged in similar circumstances than white, and more likely to be charged with heavier charges and found guilty and given higher sentences (including to serve jail time rather than probation or fines) than white counter parts.

so that alone skews the stastics, doesn't it?

and then we know that there is an extremly high rate of recitivism in this country, and that "low risk/non violent" criminals often come out of jail much higher risk and more likely to be violent--so simply jailing the black kids cuaght with pot and not their white counterparts means we are contributing to the problem of more black men involved in violent crime (after learning to do so in prison, and losing faith in society, and losing the ability to get decent jobs beucase they were in jail previously etc) than white people (who might have doen the same thing as teens but not been put in jail).

now add in that in nearly every state the rates of black people living in poverty are at least double that of white (often more) and let's look at how poverty and economic difference effect crime and how that affects the childhood and education of people before they are even old enough to havem uch of any say in their own lives and we start to get to the roots of many of these problems---you know, where we are OK with letting poor people (which affects black and hispanic people at much higher rates to this day in our country) grow up with violence, not enough food, sub par schools, dirty water, lack of access to good public tranist or afforadble fresh groceries, etc and you see how pervasive the issue really is and how difficult it can be to "escape"

We do know, from many studies that even black officers and black judges tend to see other black people as more likely to be guilty of a crime based on same evidence, and more likely to be a threat, etc---which once again points to how pervasive and all emcompassing this attitude is in our daily lives ti such a point that we truly do not see it or intend it, it is just there--which is the point--that needs addressed. It it can't be addressed by people who refuse to see it.

I hear a lot of this statistical info repeated and repeated all the time. Then I take a look at my desk, at the people I interact with every day, think back to last week, month, year and really try to see how those statistics stack up against what I do/have done, and what I've seen going on here in the building and I truly don't see it playing out that way here, no matter how much I try to see it from the perspective where the statistics would fit. Do I live in some kind of Pollyanna Bubbleworld? I don't think so. I think the way things transpire here is common in the Detroit Metro area, other metro areas around Michigan, and I suspect some other metro areas around the country as well.

When someone comes through the criminal justice system in this building I know they are evaluated as an individual as normal course of business here. It's normal here to evaluate to try to cover the discipline and punishment portion of the sentence AND look at what can be done to try to prod someone into turning their life around. Lots of thought is put into whether or not rehab is needed or if the person is likely to participate in it. Honestly sometimes we know they're not in anywhere near the headspace to participate in rehab so we don't press that simply not to set them into a pattern of resistance towards rehab in the future. We try to give them a sentence where possibly they have enough time to get over the physical portions of addiction and possibly begin doing a little thinking. Occasionally that helps a couple people. Usually we know we're liable to get them back and we really try to be watchful on probation violations to monitor exactly when they seem to change, recognize themselves they've hit rock bottom and are desperate for change and then try to apply the rehab as part of their sentence at the point they seem more likely to actually try and change.

We try to turn plenty of people around with sentences requiring them to pursue education and we monitor their progress. This helps turn some in a new direction. We also try to be mindful of the type of person they are and where possible do what we can to avoid sentencing them in a way that throws them into an unintentional education in a pool of hardened criminals. Obviously that applies with a lot of younger offenders, but plenty of older ones fall into that category too. Nobody wants to school potential criminals how to do a better job.

I typed a long story about a case that will stay with me for my entire life that subverts everything the statistics might tell you about racism in our criminal justice system. It genuinely is still too raw with me to share it in a coherent way to illustrate that this white women and several white colleagues who work really hard on a regular basis to get it right for the people we deal with daily, all of them. Trying to get it right includes a lot of ways that are for their best interest as well as for the community.

 

[gwynne]

I promise that I am not doing PR work for Dallas Police Chief but he is on CNN giving another intelligent, reasoned press conference. I predict that he will have many offers beyond this job. The saddest thing though he just said that he and his family have received death threats since the tragedy in Dallas. The problem with using emotions to incite people is that you can't prevent those same emotions from inciting the crazies out there.

We can discuss high entlement and/or mental illness...but whatever the cause just about any public figure these days has to deal with these disgusting threats.
Athlete, politician, actor, musician, police, the list is endless. It's sick. And it happens every day. Not acceptable, ever.

 

[pat fan]

Isn't there a difference between the words "all lives matter" and the actual "Black Lives Matter" and "Blue Lives Matter" lobbying groups? Would it be better if they were called "The Association of African-Americans for Not Getting Killed By Police" and the "Fraternal Order of Not Ambushing the Police"?

I guess you can call it what you want, but the proof is that what BLM is doing is NOT accomplishing anything helpful. As shown here on the DIS, BLM is not held in high regard. The CAUSE is, but not the group due to their methods. And maybe it would be better if they were called Association of Americans for Equality in Police Treatment. Doesn't quite roll off the tongue, but it would fit. Then blacks, lgbt, sherpa's and anyone else would be represented by the word "American".

 

[perkinsrose]

I guess you can call it what you want, but the proof is that what BLM is doing is NOT accomplishing anything helpful. As shown here on the DIS, BLM is not held in high regard. The CAUSE is, but not the group due to their methods. And maybe it would be better if they were called Association of Americans for Equality in Police Treatment. Doesn't quite roll off the tongue, but it would fit. Then blacks, lgbt, sherpa's and anyone else would be represented by the word "American".

People responding here are a small slice of society; by no means can be representative of our country, continent, culture, etc. as a whole.