Attention animal rights activists!

[mudpuppy]

 

[Planogirl]

That baby seal is already starting to turn dark apparently. It's interesting to me that they're still such babies when they turn dark.

 

[jess_denmark]

That baby seal is already starting to turn dark apparently. It's interesting to me that they're still such babies when they turn dark.

Yeah, and they are only about 12 days old when they start shedding their white coats

 

[RoyalCanadian]

Where do you suggest the Inuit seal hunters move to? Well, when it happened in Ohio people I know moved all over the US. Canada’s a big country so I think there are lots of nice options. If it were me I’d choose Vancouver. They should give up their way of life that has sustained them for centuries because you think it's no big deal? Indeed I do, yes.

You really have no clue who the Inuit are, do you? You have no clue about their way of life and no clue as to the importance of hunting seals to their culture, their food supply and their economy. You really have no understanding of the effect of the banning of the harp seal hunt upon the entire Inuit culture. Apparently you don't care. You would prefer to believe the lies of the IFAW and the HSUS instead of the scientific and peer-reviewed studies of the Canadian veterinary group that inspected the hunt in 2002. If the HSUS would lie to Sir Paul McCartney about the health of the seal population in Canadian waters, why would you expect anything different?

I'm glad you like Vancouver -- probably the most expensive city in Canada in which to live where even a bungalow can cost $400K. You can have it -- the only time I'm ever glad to see Vancouver is when it's from an airplane and I'm leaving the place.

However, it is very apparent that neither Dakota_Lynn nor jess_denmark are interested in hearing the truth about the Canadian seal hunt because they are so enamoured with the lies of the IFAW and the HSUS. It is sad that these probably otherwise intelligent adults are so blinded by opinions that are so easily refuted with a little bit of research and reading. What is truly sad is that they seem much more interested in the welfare of seals than the welfare of human beings.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

Since neither Dakota_Lynn nor jess_denmark seem interested in providing the truth about the Canadian seal hunt, here it is -- courtesy of the Canadian government website.

Myth #1: The Canadian government allows sealers to kill whitecoat seals.

Reality: The image of the whitecoat harp seal is used prominently by seal hunt opponents. This image gives the false impression that vulnerable seal pups are targeted by sealers during the commercial hunt.

The hunting of harp seal pups (whitecoats) and hooded seal pups (bluebacks) is illegal – and has been since 1987. Marine Mammal Regulations prohibit the trade, sale or barter of the fur of these pups. Furthermore, adult seals cannot be harvested when they are in breeding or birthing grounds and younger seals must be weaned, self-reliant and independent.

Myth #2: Seals are being skinned alive.

Reality: A 2002 independent veterinarians’ report published in the Canadian Veterinary Journal and numerous reports mentioned by the Malouf Commission (1987) indicate that this is not true.

Sometimes a seal may appear to be moving after it has been killed; however seals have a swimming reflex that is active – even after death. This reflex gives the false impression that the animal is still alive when it is clearly dead – similar to the reflex in chickens.

Myth #3: The club – or hakapik – is a barbaric and inhumane tool that has no place in today’s world.

Reality: Hunting methods were studied by the Royal Commission on Seals and Sealing in Canada and it found that the clubbing of seals, when properly performed, is at least as humane as, and often more humane than, the killing methods used in commercial slaughterhouses, which are accepted by the majority of the public.

Clubs have been used by sealers since the onset of the hunt hundreds of years ago. Hakapiks originated with Norwegian sealers who found it very effective. American studies carried out between 1969 and 1972 proved that the club or hakapik is an efficient tool designed to kill the animal quickly and humanely. A 2002 report published in the Canadian Veterinary Journal had results that parallel these findings.

Myth #4: The Canadian government is allowing sealers to kill thousands of seals to help with the recovery of cod stocks.

Reality: Several factors have contributed to the lack of recovery of Atlantic cod stocks, such as fishing effort, poor growth and physical condition of the fish, and environmental changes.

In addition, there are many uncertainties in the estimates of the amount of fish consumed by seals. The commercial quota is established on sound conservation principles, not an attempt to assist in the recovery of groundfish stocks.

Myth #5: The hunt is unsustainable and is endangering the harp seal population.

Reality: Since the 1960’s, environmental groups have been saying the seal hunt is unsustainable. In fact, the harp seal population is healthy and abundant. According to a 2004 survey, the Northwest Atlantic harp seal population is now estimated at approximately 5.8 million animals, nearly triple what it was in the 1970s.

DFO sets quotas at levels that ensure the health and abundance of seal herds. In no way are seals - and harp seals in particular – an “endangered species”.

Myth #6: The seal hunt provides such low economic return for sealers that it is not an economically viable industry.

Reality: The 2005 seal hunt was one of the most profitable in memory. Given favourable market conditions in 2005, the landed value of the harp seal hunt exceeded $16.5 million.

Seals are a significant source of income for some individual sealers and for thousands of families in Eastern Canada at a time of year when other fishing options are limited at best, in many remote, coastal communities. Sealing also creates employment opportunities for buying and processing plants.

Myth #7: Fisheries and Oceans Canada (DFO) provides subsidies for the seal hunt.

Reality: DFO does not subsidize the seal hunt. Sealing is an economically viable industry. All subsidies ceased in 2001. Even before that time, any subsidies provided were for market and product development, including a meat subsidy, to encourage full use of the seal. In fact, government has provided much less subsidization to the sealing industry than recommended by the Royal Commission on Seals and Sealing.

Myth #8: The seal hunt is loosely monitored and DFO doesn’t punish illegal hunting activity or practices.

Reality: The seal hunt is closely monitored and tightly regulated. Fishery Officers conduct surveillance of the hunt by means of aerial patrols, surface (vessel) patrols, dockside inspections of vessels at landing sites and inspections at buying and processing facilities.

Infractions are taken seriously and sealers who fail to comply with Canada’s Marine Mammal Regulations are penalized. The consequences of such illegal actions could include court-imposed fines and the forfeiting of catches, fishing gear, vessels and licences.

Myth #9: The majority of Canadians are opposed to the seal hunt.

Reality: Animal rights groups currently campaigning against the seal hunt cite a 2004 Ipsos‑Reid poll stating that the majority of Canadians are opposed to the hunt. In fact, Canadians support federal policies regarding the seal hunt. An Ipsos-Reid survey conducted in February 2005 concluded that 60% of Canadians are in favour of a responsible hunt.​

 

[Dakota_Lynn]

Since neither Dakota_Lynn nor jess_denmark seem interested in providing the truth about the Canadian seal hunt, here it is -- courtesy of the Canadian government website.

When two sides stating two different “truths” collide, I try to look at the motivations on each side for any potential lying. I can see a motivation for the Canadian government; money. But I can’t possibly think of any reason for any animal rights group to make up lies about the seal hunt. They have nothing to gain for it and there are many other animal groups in danger; so if it’s a cause they are looking for they don’t have very far to go to look for one. They have no need whatsoever to make up stories about what goes on in Canada.


We have both posted information as to why our side is “right.” The information is conflicting. I vote we agree to disagree at this point because neither of us stands any chance of changing the other’s mind. Though I do have to admit, this debate has been great at keeping our thread up front and getting more signatures, which was our goal to begin with. So for that, I thank you!

 

[jess_denmark]

How many seals have been killed?
In 2005 alone 317672 seals were reported killed. This does not include seals which were abandoned or which slipped into icy waters. The number since the year 2000 is over 1 million.

Is there an over population?
No, if anything there is a severe shortage in the population. When European explorers landed on the East coast of Canada, there were an estimated 30 million seals. Between 1950 and 1970 it was estimated that the seal population had declined to 2 million. This prompted the US government and European nations to ban the importation of seal products. The Canadian government worked afterwards at population stability but in recent years has moved away from this in order to employ out of work fishermen. The reason behind this is false scientific logic and scapegoating the seals for a decline in the cod population. Cod were over fished which resulted a collapse in the Canadian fishery industry. In 1999 a survey reported the seals to number above 4 million. This report was severely flawed.

Who hunts the seals?
Out of work fishermen in the provinces of Newfoundland, Labrador, and Prince Edward Island are mostly responsible.

Who pays the fishermen?
The government subsidizes the hunt with Canadian tax dollars. The government also spends tax dollars in attempts to create markets for the pelts. Some pelts are sold to undisclosed corporations.

How much does this cost tax payers?
In the late 1990s the Canadian government pumped 20 million in subsidies. This amount has increased since then, but the government refuses to release figures. While those subsidies have disappeared, others have replaced them, one example is for funding of a seal processing plant in Quebec. The government also spends money to promote seal products in Europe and elsewhere in order to 'open new markets'.

Is this to help the cod recuperate from over fishing?
This is the propaganda that the Canadian government has been releasing. The truth is the cods were in higher numbers long before the seal hunt started. Cod consists of less than 3% of a seals diet. Seals actually feed on squid, skate, and other predators of cod. In other words seals serve as the ecosystems check in keeping cod populations in high numbers. By killing seals, hunters are hurting the cod population.

What would you suggest out of work fishermen do instead?
The government should spend the money that is used on this cruel hunt to reeducate these hunters in sustainable fishing, or to enter into new industries. There is no scientific reason for this hunt, therefore it should be terminated immediately.

 

[Planogirl]

I see many conflicts in information from both sides myself. The last time this came up, I did some research and found that there is no real answer to this but both sides stretch the truth and even sometimes contradict themselves.

I do wonder why the animal rights groups would purposely lie about this though. It can't be just to raise money because they can show a panda cub or a skinny dog and get donations. So why would they purposely make up stories?

 

[jess_denmark]

It is so easy to just go on the internet and just cut and paste stuff that matches your own opinon into this thread.

I too think that we should just agree to disagree at this point. RC you are NEVER going to change my mind anyway. Sorry!

 

[jess_denmark]

I see many conflicts in information from both sides myself. The last time this came up, I did some research and found that there is no real answer to this but both sides stretch the truth and even sometimes contradict themselves.

I do wonder why the animal rights groups would purposely lie about this though. It can't be just to raise money because they can show a panda cub or a skinny dog and get donations. So why would they purposely make up stories?

My point exactly Planogirl. What would be in it for them?

 

[RoyalCanadian]

When two sides stating two different “truths” collide, I try to look at the motivations on each side for any potential lying. I can see a motivation for the Canadian government; money. But I can’t possibly think of any reason for any animal rights group to make up lies about the seal hunt. They have nothing to gain for it and there are many other animal groups in danger; so if it’s a cause they are looking for they don’t have very far to go to look for one.

Admittedly the Canadian government and Atlantic Region provincial governments will receive tax revenue from the seal hunt income. These fishermen are making so little money over the course of the year that I expect they pay rather little in income tax -- so just figuring the 15% Harmonized Sales Tax in the Atlantic Region, that is 4 provinces and 1 federal government bringing in a total of $2.475 million dollars.

How much money do the HSUS and the IFAW bring in each year in donations? In 2003 the HSUS received direct financial donations from the public in the amount of nearly $63 million and had net assets of nearly $100 million.
The IFAW had receipts of over $77 million and surplus over expenses of over $7 million. The IFAW Annual Report notes that they had a renewed emphasis on the seal hunt in 2004. Coincidentaly, the IFAW receipts for 2004 were up significantly over 2003. 28.5% of the IFAW programme support money was spent in the area of marine mammals -- including the seal hunt.

There is a lot to gain there and the picture of a wide eyed whitecoated Harp seal pup (even though whitecoats haven't been hunted in nearly 20 years) helps to bring in a lot more money and generate a very emotionally charged response to the scientific, economic and cultural facts about the hunt.

I agree that one should examine the potential gain for a group in coming to a conclusion regarding their position on the Canadian seal hunt. What gain would there be for an independent group of Canadian veterinarians to conclude that the seal hunt is humane? They are not employed by the seal hunters nor the Canadian government. What gain would there be for veterinary groups whose monitoring trips were paid for by the HSUS or IFAW to come to the conclusion that the seal hunt was inhumane? Probably further funding from these groups. Just a thought. Thank you for pointing out the need to consider financial gain -- you're right on the nose with that one.

As for the petition, it won't go anywhere. Internet petitions are worth as much as the pen with which the user signed the petition. They are incredibly prone to abuse. As well, the petition will have no standing in the Canadian parliament which is the only legislative body that can possibly ban the seal hunt. I also signed the petition -- but I doubt the IFAW will like the information I included which demands that they tell the truth.

 

[declansdad]

My point exactly Planogirl. What would be in it for them?

The same thing that you say the Canadian government is in it for....money.


And to say that the few fishermen could relocate is still being naive. Entire communities would cease to exist not just a few fishermen.


You are all correct in saying that nobody will change their mind based on these threads. It is a very hot button issue with very little room in the middle.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

Jess_denmark continues to post unsubstantiated myths which have already been disproved and Dakota_Lynn wants to relocate entire fishing villages and wipe out the Inuit culture in northern Canada. Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.

This is all due to the misinformation campaigns of groups such as HSUS and IFAW using the findings of veterinary groups which rely on funding from HSUS and IFAW. Both groups have been caught in lies in this campaign -- I see no reason to trust any information they have provided on their website.

Conversely, a 2002 study conducted by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association determined that the seal hunt is humanely conducted. This report was published in a peer-reviewed veterinary medical journal. What credentials do the HSUS and IFAW veterinarianary groups carry?

 

[Sylvester McBean]

Sylvester, care to expand a little on this theory???

I got off topic, it had nothing do do with seal hunts. it was more a view on vegetarianism, I digress.

 

[snowwite]

As any interest on the subject sudenly dissapeared ?

I dont care how you try to justify it.This is horrible and should be stopped.I have sent the links out to everone in my email lists and my daughter has begun sending to everyone in her high school.I have been writing since I was in elementary school so I am not really expecting it will change anytime soon but maybe,just maybe if enough people are outraged and speak up something will be done to end this barbaric practice.
By the way DD is a vegetarian and although I do eat chicken we do buy from a reputable source so I dont think the birds are tortured. I dont think you can compare brutal clubbing of a helpless baby seal with slaughtering a domesticated animal such as a cow which is raised for food. The seals are murdered for FUR not for food.It is disgusting.

 

[crazee4mickey]

I do believe in animal as well as human rights!
I understand why people get upset and don't agree with the seal hunt or killing of animals of any kind but I do believe some on this discussion are listening only to what they want to hear.
These same people are very naive when they say people in parts of Canada can relocate and get new jobs--you have no idea about Canada and its people other than what you choose to learn.
Do you know anything at all about the Inuit people and their culture?
You want to be upset about the slaughter of seals yet daily there is massive slaughter of animals such as cattle, pigs and chickens and it most definately is not humane----are you upset about the seals because they are cute and cuddly? Or because they are living creatures?
For the person who said they eat chicken and they are not tortured, go watch and see what you think then--what you think and what someone else thinks about humanely killing animals will vary greatly I guarantee it!
The slaughter of cattle is okay if they are to be eaten??? Explain the logic to me there---I grew up in a family where the cattle industry is huge, I saw what happens to these animals and worked at auctions--"big dumb animals" some say--"only for food" others would say---they DO have feelings just like baby seals--they feel fear, anger--believe me they are not killed kindly. For this reason I will not eat beef or pork and I was a member of PETA for many years---
As I said some in this discussion only hear what they want to hear and see what they choose to see--open your eyes to the "big picture" all over the world then you will have a valid point, don't just "jump on the bandwagon" because celebrities have decided that is there "cause" for the week.

 

[crazee4mickey]

For those in an uproar about the hunting of the adorable seal pups you always see pictures of (I did cut and paste out the parts about the killing of only seal pups because these are the images most closely related to the seal hunts, go to links I have posted to read the limits on the seal hunt):
Dated March 2006 from the Canadian Government Fisheries and Oceans website:
**The hunt of harp (whitecoat) seal pups has not been allowed since 1987. Marine Mammal Regulations also prohibit the trade, sale or barter of the fur of these pups.
**The hunt of hooded (blueback) seal pups has not been allowed since 1987.

Also, dated March 15, 2006 from the Canadian Government Fisheries and Oceans website:
"The harp seal herd is abundant and healthy. It stands at approximately 5.8 million animals; nearly triple the size of the herd in the 1970’s," said Minister Hearn. "This is a conservation success story."

Please read the complete facts on the "2006-2010 Atlantic Seal Management Plan" Canadian government website for the facts in there entirety:
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/newsrel/2006/hq-ac05_e.htm
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/backgrou/2006/hq-ac05a_e.htm

 

[Dakota_Lynn]

I dont care how you try to justify it.This is horrible and should be stopped.I have sent the links out to everone in my email lists and my daughter has begun sending to everyone in her high school.I have been writing since I was in elementary school so I am not really expecting it will change anytime soon but maybe,just maybe if enough people are outraged and speak up something will be done to end this barbaric practice.

That is terrific! Thank you for doing all that!

 

[Dakota_Lynn]

You want to be upset about the slaughter of seals yet daily there is massive slaughter of animals such as cattle, pigs and chickens and it most definately is not humane----are you upset about the seals because they are cute and cuddly? Or because they are living creatures?

I have already answered this question. Yes, I am very much worried about cattle, pigs and chickens. But once again THIS particular thread is about seals. Why do you assume that because I have focussed on seals on this thread that I don't give a damn about anything but seals? I do not believe I said anywhere on this thread, or any other thread that I don't care about cattle, pigs, and chickens.

 

[Viking]

Why don't You address your Primer and the Canadian Fishing Authorities and have them put a stop to those foreign fishers since they make local Canadian fishermen unemployed. By putting an end to that your fishermen won’t have to take it out on the seals and the fishermen won’t have to re-locate.

Well, here in Denmark we aren’t allowed to fish for cod either. We too used to have tons and tons of cod in our waters just a few years back. We live in 2006 now and things aren’t the way they used to be anymore. There are too many fishers in certain parts of the world now and not enough fish for all of them and soon your “healthy” population of harp seals won’t be so “healthy” anymore either if your fishermen keep slaughtering them for no other reason but to make extra money so they can all stay in this fishing industry that they obviously can't live off anymore.

This is international law since the trawler wars with Iceland. 200 Nautical miles offshore is INTERNATIONAL waters, so anybody can fish there.