Attention animal rights activists!

[jess_denmark]

I do believe in animal as well as human rights!
I understand why people get upset and don't agree with the seal hunt or killing of animals of any kind but I do believe some on this discussion are listening only to what they want to hear.....

Hi Bonnie, nice to meet you!

I take it I'm one of the people you reffer to here. I have been against this particular seal hunt for more then 15 years. Personally the image that come to my mind when thinking about this particular hunt is the picture of a defenceless adult seal lying on the ice looking at the sealer standing there with his club raised ready to strike!
As a matter of fact I've heard both sides and I have read probably everything you can find in books and on the internet - including all the material provided by the Canadian Government and the Canadian Fishing Authorities about this hunt - the rules and regulations - official reports from the official governmental vets etc. But I have also read many other things, many other facts, stories and reports from the ice then what is just concluded in official governmental reports and articles, and no; not just IFAW and HSUS's material, and this is how I have come to my personal conclusions about this seal hunt and why it - in my eyes - is unacceptable brutal and cruel in every way.

 

[jess_denmark]

This is international law since the trawler wars with Iceland. 200 Nautical miles offshore is INTERNATIONAL waters, so anybody can fish there.

Yep, you are right!
Trawlers ARE a big problem in this matter!

 

[jess_denmark]

I dont care how you try to justify it.This is horrible and should be stopped.I have sent the links out to everone in my email lists and my daughter has begun sending to everyone in her high school.I have been writing since I was in elementary school so I am not really expecting it will change anytime soon but maybe,just maybe if enough people are outraged and speak up something will be done to end this barbaric practice.

Well said Snowwite

 

[snowwite]

I do believe in animal as well as human rights!
I understand why people get upset and don't agree with the seal hunt or killing of animals of any kind but I do believe some on this discussion are listening only to what they want to hear.
These same people are very naive when they say people in parts of Canada can relocate and get new jobs--you have no idea about Canada and its people other than what you choose to learn.
Do you know anything at all about the Inuit people and their culture?
You want to be upset about the slaughter of seals yet daily there is massive slaughter of animals such as cattle, pigs and chickens and it most definately is not humane----are you upset about the seals because they are cute and cuddly? Or because they are living creatures?
For the person who said they eat chicken and they are not tortured, go watch and see what you think then--what you think and what someone else thinks about humanely killing animals will vary greatly I guarantee it!
The slaughter of cattle is okay if they are to be eaten??? Explain the logic to me there---I grew up in a family where the cattle industry is huge, I saw what happens to these animals and worked at auctions--"big dumb animals" some say--"only for food" others would say---they DO have feelings just like baby seals--they feel fear, anger--believe me they are not killed kindly. For this reason I will not eat beef or pork and I was a member of PETA for many years---
As I said some in this discussion only hear what they want to hear and see what they choose to see--open your eyes to the "big picture" all over the world then you will have a valid point, don't just "jump on the bandwagon" because celebrities have decided that is there "cause" for the week.

I respectfully DISAGREE and will never agree with your opininion.Dont bother trying to change mine.

 

[Dakota_Lynn]

I respectfully DISAGREE and will never agree with your opininion.Dont bother trying to change mine.

You go girl!

 

[Dakota_Lynn]

I got off topic, it had nothing do do with seal hunts. it was more a view on vegetarianism, I digress.

Well, this thread has taken all kinds of interesting turns. At this point I personally don't mind if it goes a bit off topic. Like, the great Dane, I too wouldn’t mind learning more about your theory on there being no difference between ending the life of an orange and a seal.

bi·ol·o·gy
n.
1. The science of life and of living organisms, including their structure, function, growth, origin, evolution, and distribution. It includes botany and zoology and all their subdivisions.
2. The life processes or characteristic phenomena of a group or category of living organisms: the biology of viruses.
3. The plant and animal life of a specific area or region.

until someone can provide me a clear and concise departure from picking an orange from a tree and ending it's natural life to doing the same with an animal, I don't get vegetarians. life is nothing more than a group of dividing cells with an intended shape and form.

You are right about life being cells with an intended shape and form; but you are referring to the embryonic stage. When you eat food, be it an orange or a chicken their form has already taken shape. I don’t see it as cruel to kill something that hasn’t developed beyond an unidentifiable mass of cells. But the seals and the oranges you are referring to have taken shape and are way beyond the painless embryonic stage.


Interesting you gave the definition of biology. I don’t need it; trust me! I was a biology major so of course I know the meaning of the word. I’m just not sure how the definition applies to your theory. I definitely learned a very different perspective than you did. Allow me to try to explain the difference between the two species you named so I can help you see the clear and concise departure from picking and orange and clubbing a seal.

Plants and animals are both made up of eukaryotic cells. Beyond that, they are quite different at the cellular level! I'd like to see a seal photosynthesize! lol! Not many mammals have chloroplasts! Also, the cells in an orange have cell walls; this gives them the strong rigid texture (cellulose) as opposed to critters in the animal kingdoms that only have cell membranes. That is why we are kind of mushy to the touch compared to lettuce which is more rigid. If a seal had a cell wall…well, that would be just plain silly! The poor thing wouldn’t be able to get around very well at all! Lol! I realize that cellular biology is of little interest to most people, so I’ll move on. I just wanted to point out that while what you said was true…that life is nothing more than dividing cells…that the dividing cells in questions are tremendously different and lead to very diverse organisms!


Let’s talk about neurology. It’s really simple; seals have what is referred to as a nervous system. Through a complicated and intricate network of neurons, transmitters and other goofy little biological gadgets, seals can experience something that oranges cannot; PAIN. It hurts if you club a seal, but since oranges do not have a central nervous system, they couldn’t care less if you pluck them from a tree!


By the way, when you pick an orange, the orange tree doesn’t die. When you club a seal over the head and skin it….well, it’s dead. Just another little difference I thought I’d throw out there. Compare it to humans; you can remove many things from the human body and it will still live...blood, spleen, a kidney, bone marrow, gall bladder, uterus, and various other organs. Removing those things do not make a person dead. In the same way, plucking an orange doens't kill the tree. You are not "ending its life."


The bottom line is, you are right. Life is about dividing cells. But that is a dramatic over simplification of the situation. It overlooks some fundamental differences between biological organisms and how they function. In mammals, that central nervous system makes a world of difference between them and plants. Plants don’t feel pain, they don’t bleed, they don’t have feelings, they don’t get scared, and they don’t ache when their offspring are slaughtered before their very eyes.

wild omniverous mammals don't differentiate between plants or animals, they just eat what they can in order to survive.

And you are of course right that wild omnivores don’t differentiate. But they do one thing very differently from humans; they don’t waste. They take what they need and if they have left overs another wild animal takes them. Humans waste a staggering amount of food which ultimately means way more animals are killed than necessary. We should only take what we need, but tons meat gets wasted in the process of obtaining, shipping and selling it. Most supermarkets throw away shameful amounts of food. And even in individual households, many people through out a LOT of food. I knew somebody who worked in a restaurant and she was always disgusted at how much food was thrown out. It's very sad. All this waste means more lost lives of innocent animals. In contrast, there is very little waste in the wild. Another thing that separates us from wild carnivores is our intelligence. We know that brutally killing other animals hurts. With the intelligence that we are given comes responsibility to treat other living beings in a humane manner.

until someone can provide me a clear and concise departure from picking an orange from a tree and ending it's natural life to doing the same with an animal, I don't get vegetarians.

Well, I tried! All this is just my opinion, of course. I'm always open to hearing new thoughts. Please, by all means, go on and expand on your theories. I’d love to discuss this further.

 

[horsegirl]

Well, this thread has taken all kinds of interesting turns. At this point I personally don't mind if it goes a bit off topic. Like, the great Dane, I too wouldn’t mind learning more about your theory on there being no difference between ending the life of an orange and a seal.


You are right about life being cells with an intended shape and form; but you are referring to the embryonic stage. When you eat food, be it an orange or a chicken their form has already taken shape. I don’t see it as cruel to kill something that hasn’t developed beyond an unidentifiable mass of cells. But the seals and the oranges you are referring to have taken shape and are way beyond the painless embryonic stage.


Interesting you gave the definition of biology. I don’t need it; trust me! I was a biology major so of course I know the meaning of the word. I’m just not sure how the definition applies to your theory. I definitely learned a very different perspective than you did. Allow me to try to explain the difference between the two species you named so I can help you see the clear and concise departure from picking and orange and clubbing a seal.

Plants and animals are both made up of eukaryotic cells. Beyond that, they are quite different at the cellular level! I'd like to see a seal photosynthesize! lol! Not many mammals have chloroplasts! Also, the cells in an orange have cell walls; this gives them the strong rigid texture (cellulose) as opposed to critters in the animal kingdoms that only have cell membranes. That is why we are kind of mushy to the touch compared to lettuce which is more rigid. If a seal had a cell wall…well, that would be just plain silly! The poor thing wouldn’t be able to get around very well at all! Lol! I realize that cellular biology is of little interest to most people, so I’ll move on. I just wanted to point out that while what you said was true…that life is nothing more than dividing cells…that the dividing cells in questions are tremendously different and lead to very diverse organisms!


Let’s talk about neurology. It’s really simple; seals have what is referred to as a nervous system. Through a complicated and intricate network of neurons, transmitters and other goofy little biological gadgets, seals can experience something that oranges cannot; PAIN. It hurts if you club a seal, but since oranges do not have a central nervous system, they couldn’t care less if you pluck them from a tree!


By the way, when you pick an orange, the orange tree doesn’t die. When you club a seal over the head and skin it….well, it’s dead. Just another little difference I thought I’d throw out there. Compare it to humans; you can remove many things from the human body and it will still live...blood, spleen, a kidney, bone marrow, gall bladder, uterus, and various other organs. Removing those things do not make a person dead. In the same way, plucking an orange doens't kill the tree. You are not "ending its life."


The bottom line is, you are right. Life is about dividing cells. But that is a dramatic over simplification of the situation. It overlooks some fundamental differences between biological organisms and how they function. In mammals, that central nervous system makes a world of difference between them and plants. Plants don’t feel pain, they don’t bleed, they don’t have feelings, they don’t get scared, and they don’t ache when their offspring are slaughtered before their very eyes.


And you are of course right that wild omnivores don’t differentiate. But they do one thing very differently from humans; they don’t waste. They take what they need and if they have left overs another wild animal takes them. Humans waste a staggering amount of food which ultimately means way more animals are killed than necessary. We should only take what we need, but tons meat gets wasted in the process of obtaining, shipping and selling it. Most supermarkets throw away shameful amounts of food. And even in individual households, many people through out a LOT of food. I knew somebody who worked in a restaurant and she was always disgusted at how much food was thrown out. It's very sad. All this waste means more lost lives of innocent animals. In contrast, there is very little waste in the wild. Another thing that separates us from wild carnivores is our intelligence. We know that brutally killing other animals hurts. With the intelligence that we are given comes responsibility to treat other living beings in a humane manner.


Well, I tried! All this is just my opinion, of course. I'm always open to hearing new thoughts. Please, by all means, go on and expand on your theories. I’d love to discuss this further.

You are undeniably qualified to post your original request that people sign a petition. And even if you weren't, I would still have signed. I agree with so many here, and I suspect that your view on the meat industry mirrors your concern about the seals, and given your strong sense of humanity, go to bat on that issue too in some form or another, if in no other way than being respectful of others. I do not see why by posting about this particular topic, people assume that you or anyone else is not concerned about the deplorable treatment of other animals for the use of man.

I have seen people who are concerned for the ethical treatment of animals be attacked also because some make the assumption and argument that they are not putting their efforts towards people. I do not believe it should be either or. I believe all creatures who can not fend for themselves need to be represented. We need people raising awareness for both the animal kingdom and humanity. Unfortunately, many of us, spend too much time worrying about our own selfish needs, rather than raising the quality of life on this planet for others.

We are not wild animals, we in this country have been afforded many, many skills that allow us to not have to survive in the way they do. I realize that many cultures and peoples have to rely on animals as a source of food and shelter. The comments about excess and waste and cruelty is what separates the acceptable from the unacceptable.

I saw a photo not long ago of a horse being slaughtered by a tribe of siberians in Mongolia. And as gruesome as it was, I was not outraged, because their food source is limited in the tundra, and they were respectful, and humane, and appreciative of the animal. I am so thankful that I can avoid eating meat. I hate it. But I certainly understand that most of the world will continue to take part in that particular part of the foodchain, even though I chose not to. Luckily for me, my 3 children and husband feel the same way, even though none of us have discussed it. When my three dks learned what meat actually was, and where it came from, they stopped eating it, because they can and because they was beyond their comprehension.

Obviously from my ID, I love horses, and from my post, all animals. I have many many rescued animals, but I am also a therapist who heals people who have been wronged. SO, many of us that agree with your post, probably do more than try to do our part for just this one particular species that is the central topic here.

I do not interpret you as trying to change anyone's mind. You have been more than respectful. I see you and several other's here, as trying to raise people's awareness. Your eloquence and intelligence is most evident. Thank you for taking the time to try to remind us all of the importance of maintaining respect and thoughfulness in how we conduct our lives.

 

[Sylvester McBean]

I oversimplified my point for a reason. maybe an orange tree was a bad example as it does renew it's resources, but they're everywhere here so it came to mind. pull a carrot from the ground, and it dies. and you raise the point I didn't want to, the CNS. any living organism with one can be killed quickly and humanely if you know how to exploit it, that's evident in nature. the evolution of our brains may have given us a different level of intelligence and consciousness, but we still retain the canine teeth to tear flesh. we're designed to be omnivores.

I'm not a fan of the seal hunts, it makes me ill. it's a slaughter of an animal for a pelt and nothing more. I don't feel the same about a cow or a pig or an ear of corn, they're all farmed as food sources.

 

[jess_denmark]

From one animal lover to another Well said HORSEGIRL

 

[Blondie]

I don't know if this link has already been posted and I don't have time to wade through 10 plus pages of posts (the DIS is unusually slow for me today--it would take forever).

Stop the killing.

 

[horsegirl]

I oversimplified my point for a reason. maybe an orange tree was a bad example as it does renew it's resources, but they're everywhere here so it came to mind. pull a carrot from the ground, and it dies. and you raise the point I didn't want to, the CNS. any living organism with one can be killed quickly and humanely if you know how to exploit it, that's evident in nature. the evolution of our brains may have given us a different level of intelligence and consciousness, but we still retain the canine teeth to tear flesh. we're designed to be omnivores.

I'm not a fan of the seal hunts, it makes me ill. it's a slaughter of an animal for a pelt and nothing more. I don't feel the same about a cow or a pig or an ear of corn, they're all farmed as food sources.

Thank you for letting me know that you have some compassion. But I have to say I am unconvinced of your argument regarding the canine teeth. Carrots need them too and we only require 2 portions of protein per day.

I would hope we as a species continue evolving given the intelligence we have. We as consumers are limited in our willingness to put ourselves out, and I say that collectively as there are many individuals who do not. This is why alternative energy has not been developed in this nation. Brazil has developed an amazing fuel source using sugar cane. It represents 40 percent of their fuel comsumption. Alternative methods to all types of problems can be found if there is a need or a concern on the impact of that particular issue.

 

[Dakota_Lynn]

Wow...that video was just heartbreaking to watch. I hadn't seen it before. Thanks, Blondie for posting it. It was just so sad, but still, people need to see it so they can see for themselves how horrible this is.

Horsegirl; thanks so much for your post! I'm sure glad you're on our side!

 

[jess_denmark]

I don't know if this link has already been posted and I don't have time to wade through 10 plus pages of posts (the DIS is unusually slow for me today--it would take forever).

Stop the killing.

Hi Blondie,
No that link hadn't been posted in here before. Thank you for doing it

 

[RoyalCanadian]

The seals are murdered for FUR not for food.It is disgusting.

Here's the problem. You want to ban the hunting of seals because they are hunted for their pelts and not their food. If the seal hunt is banned then no seals can be hunted. The Inuit of Canada hunt seals for their pelts and for food. They use the pelts to create artwork, clothing, and sell to foreign buyers.

What about them? Should they relocate from the Canadian Arctic because you're uncomfortable with what you see?

 

[Dakota_Lynn]

Here's the problem. You want to ban the hunting of seals because they are hunted for their pelts and not their food. If the seal hunt is banned then no seals can be hunted. The Inuit of Canada hunt seals for their pelts and for food. They use the pelts to create artwork, clothing, and sell to foreign buyers.

What about them? Should they relocate from the Canadian Arctic because you're uncomfortable with what you see?

Canada has art schools, right? They could always learn another way to create art; one that is a little more humane.

 

[horsegirl]

Here's the problem. You want to ban the hunting of seals because they are hunted for their pelts and not their food. If the seal hunt is banned then no seals can be hunted. The Inuit of Canada hunt seals for their pelts and for food. They use the pelts to create artwork, clothing, and sell to foreign buyers.

What about them? Should they relocate from the Canadian Arctic because you're uncomfortable with what you see?

In the state of Maine, there are exceptions for native people's with regards to some uses of their land, etc. I must say I do not know a great deal about the inuit people. I hope someone will post who does. But what I would like to say is that many native populations have always revered the animals because of their use as a valuable resource. I plan to research their methods and the numbers. If it is done with the cruelty and massiveness of the hunt we are speaking of, I would have to say there needs to be honest dialogue on how to improve their methods of creating an economic resource. I am not going to espouse that I alone have a solution, but my point earlier, is that if this were important, people would come up with another type of resource to sustain them. I come from a rural area of the country where jobs are few. Wildlife is abundant, and would make an obvious source for many Mainers who have difficulty finding gainful employment. However, even here there are laws that mandate humanity and decency. New laws are being created all the time for species, because luckily, some feel it is wrong to inflict unneccesary cruelty on those species that have no capacity to defend against it. Just because the population is healthy, does not open a door for the type of practice that takes place.

I hope someone will educate me on the native inuit seal hunt. I may be wrong, but my hope is that there is a respect and decency, which is what many here ultimately hope for the hunt in question. I, as many here, do not across the board, see this as a black and white issue. It is complex. This is true for so many things. Thank you.

 

[zenshome]

This is why alternative energy has not been developed in this nation. Brazil has developed an amazing fuel source using sugar cane. It represents 40 percent of their fuel comsumption. Alternative methods to all types of problems can be found if there is a need or a concern on the impact of that particular issue.

You may want to bring this up as a new topic sometime, my personal view is that this has alot more to do with political lobbies, big oil, and myriad other items. The fuel source you mention was actually shown on the TV Reality Series Amazing Race a few weeks ago.

 

[ford family]

Canada has art schools, right? They could always learn another way to create art; one that is a little more humane.

How incredibly patronising. You think that a nation should change its way of life because you find their customs offensive?

Read what the Inuit themslelves think;

Inuit critical of Paul McCartney's campaign against East Coast seal hunt Mon Mar 13, 5:19 PM ET

IQALUIT, Nunavut (CP) - Two Inuit leaders say pop star Paul McCartney's recent campaign against the Canadian seal hunt is silly and disrespectful to wildlife.

The ex-Beatle visited the East Coast region this month to stage a high-profile photo-op on the ice floes in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, calling for the end of the centuries-old commercial hunt.

Sheila Watt-Cloutier, the elected Chair of the Inuit Circumpolar Conference, and Duane Smith, president of the conference, say in a news release issued Monday that Ottawa should reject McCartney's advice.

They are urging a federally funded campaign in Europe and the United States to counter his message.

Watt-Cloutier called McCartney "silly" for lying down on sea ice and playing with seal pups.

She says seals may look like cute pets, but should be viewed as wild animals that are hunted by humans.

"Inuit hunt seals for food and clothing, and we market internationally the by-products of our sustainable hunt. This is why attacking the commercial harvest on Canada's East Coast and attempting to destroy the market for seal products also affects the Inuit seal hunt in the Arctic," she said.

McCartney and his wife Heather were seen on their bellies close to newborn harp seals, insisting the annual East Coast seal hunt is a "stain on the character of the Canadian people."

They also appeared on CNN's Larry King Live from Charlottetown.

Watt-Cloutier noted that wildlife groups and Ottawa have established that seals are not endangered, and the World Trade Organization allows unrestricted trade in most seal products.

Smith added: "Our hunting is sustainable. It is the right of Inuit as an aboriginal people to continue hunting as we have always done."

Watt-Cloutier said if McCartney wants to save seals, he should help Inuit stop climate change which is destroying sea ice - the habitat of seals.

She invited the pop star to visit the Arctic to learn what seal hunting means to Inuit.

The hunt, which started in the 1700s, is expected to open later this month off Prince Edward Island and around the Magdalen Islands.

The main hunt typically begins in April off Newfoundland.

The most recent figures suggest the industry was worth between $15 million and $20 million annually and employed up to 10,000 people, most of them in Newfoundland. http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20060313/ca_pr_on_na/seal_hunt_inuit

ford family

 

[sha_lyn]

How incredibly patronising. You think that a nation should change its way of life because you find their customs offensive

Nations change their laws all of the time as they progress and people learn better than the old ways. Slavery is a perfect example. Are you sayng just because something is/was a custom it is ok no matter how wrong or offensive it is.
So are in in support of the countries that allow female cicumcision, of for a male family member to kill a female member if she disgraces the family? Or is the way of life statement only in effect when people are not involved?

 

[Dakota_Lynn]

Nations change their laws all of the time as they progress and people learn better than the old ways. Slavery is a perfect example. Are you sayng just because something is/was a custom it is ok no matter how wrong or offensive it is.
So are in in support of the countries that allow female cicumcision, of for a male family member to kill a female member if she disgraces the family? Or is the way of life statement only in effect when people are not involved?

Oh yeah, what she said! Thank you Sha_lyn.