Athiests fight public display of "giving" tree

[HollyJoy]

I don't believe that Christmas trees actually have anything to do with Christ. What these people are trying to do is just ridiculous. So glad that the courts are siding w/the city!

 

[TinkBoo&ElliesMum]

This was on the local news the other night, I don't honestly think anyone is taking these people seriously aside from themselves! They came across looking like absolute morons. Very whiney.

It's a giving tree, what's the big deal?!?! I have this urge to go take pictures of it, it's a nicely decorated tree with tags for people to take and return with gifts for needy people, yep, doesn't get more offensive then that.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I think I'll start a petition to ban pumpkins at Halloween.

After all--they shouldn't be carved and their insides dumped--it's wasteful. To post pictures of pumpkins in relation to Halloween endorses wastefulness.

I think I'll start a petition to ban the Easter Bunny. He represents Easter which represents Jesus--so by default, to have a picture of the Easter Bunny is endorsing a Christian Holiday.

I think that I'll start a petition against the leprechaun--it mocks "little persons". Those who participate in any aspect of Saint Patrick's day, must be mocking little people.

And Valentine's day--well there exist people who wish to remain single throughout their life--so to have any ornaments up regarding this holiday, excludes them.

This is how foolish it is to get upset over a giving tree IMHO.

 

[dmadman43]

I think I'll start a petition to ban pumpkins at Halloween.

After all--they shouldn't be carved and their insides dumped--it's wasteful. To post pictures of pumpkins in relation to Halloween endorses wastefulness.

I think I'll start a petition to ban the Easter Bunny. He represents Easter which represents Jesus--so by default, to have a picture of the Easter Bunny is endorsing a Christian Holiday.

I think that I'll start a petition against the leprechaun--it mocks "little persons". Those who participate in any aspect of Saint Patrick's day, must be mocking little people.

And Valentine's day--well there exist people who wish to remain single throughout their life--so to have any ornaments up regarding this holiday, excludes them.

This is how foolish it is to get upset over a giving tree IMHO.

Valentine's Day is for St. Valentine is it not? Thus, religious. Therefore, needing to be banned. And wasn't (isn't) Cupid a Roman God? Thus, religious. Therefore, banned!!!

Is St. Patrick's day religious? Therefore, banned!!!

Halloween also has religious origins. Isn't it a contraction of "All Hallows Day",also meaning "all saints day". Therefore, banned!!!

 

[Madi100]

I think we all need to be watching Blue's Clues right now. Steve and Blue are going around their neighborhood and all of them seem to celebrate differently. Steve is giving each of them a gift, and in return they are all giving him a patch for his quilt. The patches represent each of the different celebrations. What we could learn From Blue!

 

[chobie]

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.

Your sick and tired of doing what Jesus told you to do? Maybe its time you find a new religion.

You are entitled to pray whenever and wherever you want. You just can't force your religon on everyone else.

 

[Crankyshank]

I think I'll start a petition to ban pumpkins at Halloween.

After all--they shouldn't be carved and their insides dumped--it's wasteful. To post pictures of pumpkins in relation to Halloween endorses wastefulness.

I think I'll start a petition to ban the Easter Bunny. He represents Easter which represents Jesus--so by default, to have a picture of the Easter Bunny is endorsing a Christian Holiday.

I think that I'll start a petition against the leprechaun--it mocks "little persons". Those who participate in any aspect of Saint Patrick's day, must be mocking little people.

And Valentine's day--well there exist people who wish to remain single throughout their life--so to have any ornaments up regarding this holiday, excludes them.

This is how foolish it is to get upset over a giving tree IMHO.

Actually the bunny is pagan. He represents Eoster.
Both sides of this issue have a point and no amount of educating the general population about the origins of holidays is going to help find a solution. Either way someone is going to get pissed off that their religion isn't represented or someone else's is over represented.

I like the idea of assorted ornaments representing different cultures and religions decorating the tree.

 

[rubyslipperlover]

Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before
eating, to pray before we go to sleep.
Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing.

this line bothered me, too.

no one told him he couldn't pray.


you know, observant Jews pray before meals, they pray three times a day. observant Muslims pray five times a day.

but they don't expect the people around them of other faiths to join in.


there's got to be some middle ground where we don't ban all religous asapects from public life but we don't put the religion of the majority ahead of the religions of the minority.

 

[TheBellhop]

If it was a huge pentacle that had the names of needy families on it would you still agree?

~Amanda

Actually, it really wouldn't bother me a bit.

 

[totalia]

No Christians are being stripped of their rights. Non-Christians are simply insisting that they be granted the same rights.

Namely, if Christmas must be celebrated and Christian symbols everywhere, then why can't Kwanzaa, Yule and Jewish holidays (sorry I can't spell it properly for this time of year so I'm not going to bother butchering the word) be given equal notice and celebration?

As a Pagan, I ask why things like Yule logs and public Yule decorations can't be present and yet I have to suffer scenes of the nativity and public displays of the suffering of Jesus.

The only thing they are asking for is equal exposure and equal rights. Just because Christianity has been THE religion for so long doesn't mean it has the only rights for this time of year.

The easiest way to do that to accomodate everyone is to not have any of them in a PUBLIC setting.

It's just much more equal to celebrate it as a pretty holiday with Santa Clause, Frosty the Snowman, cute seasonal shows (like The Christmas Toy from Jim Henson Productions) and a decorated tree along with good food.

Let Christmas be something that is non denominational. If you want to include religious meaning behind it, then do it for yourself but don't expect the rest of us to agree with you.

Happy Yule all and Blessed Be (yes I'm fully aware that this statement belies what I just said but if YOU can do this kind of thing, then I can too).

 

[Madi100]

No Christians are being stripped of their rights. Non-Christians are simply insisting that they be granted the same rights.

Namely, if Christmas must be celebrated and Christian symbols everywhere, then why can't Kwanzaa, Yule and Jewish holidays (sorry I can't spell it properly for this time of year so I'm not going to bother butchering the word) be given equal notice and celebration?

As a Pagan, I ask why things like Yule logs and public Yule decorations can't be present and yet I have to suffer scenes of the nativity and public displays of the suffering of Jesus.

The only thing they are asking for is equal exposure and equal rights. Just because Christianity has been THE religion for so long doesn't mean it has the only rights for this time of year.

The easiest way to do that to accomodate everyone is to not have any of them in a PUBLIC setting.

It's just much more equal to celebrate it as a pretty holiday with Santa Clause, Frosty the Snowman, cute seasonal shows (like The Christmas Toy from Jim Henson Productions) and a decorated tree along with good food.

Let Christmas be something that is non denominational. If you want to include religious meaning behind it, then do it for yourself but don't expect the rest of us to agree with you.

Happy Yule all and Blessed Be (yes I'm fully aware that this statement belies what I just said but if YOU can do this kind of thing, then I can too).

I think that the only places you see nativities and anything religious are at churches and at people's homes. Most community decorations are exactly what you are asking for - cute Santas, Snowman, etc. Where we live there just aren't a lot of people who are Jewish. I live in Iowa. I think it's mostly Christian. I'm not saying it's ALL Christian, but I think the majority is. I live in a big college town too that has a lot of diversity. I just haven't been exposed to anything other than Christianity or secular. Last year my daughter had a little girl in her class who was Jewish. They did Christmas activities. The school sang Christmas songs. But, my daughter also came home with some Jewish stuff. I think they made dreidels (sp?) I wasn't offended at all. I think it's important for my daughter to realize that people are diverse.

As far as Christmas being nondenominational, I think it really has become that. I don't see anything religious about Santa, trees, snowman, etc. That is what you see when you look around. Go to the mall. Tell me something there that is religious and MEANT to be religious. There is no child who goes to see Santa and actually attaches something Christian, Jewish, Muslam, Pagan...... to him. The only place you see the religious stuff is at church and private homes. And, when I put out my nativity I'm not asking you to believe, I'm expressing what I believe.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

No Christians are being stripped of their rights. Non-Christians are simply insisting that they be granted the same rights.

Namely, if Christmas must be celebrated and Christian symbols everywhere, then why can't Kwanzaa, Yule and Jewish holidays (sorry I can't spell it properly for this time of year so I'm not going to bother butchering the word) be given equal notice and celebration?

As a Pagan, I ask why things like Yule logs and public Yule decorations can't be present and yet I have to suffer scenes of the nativity and public displays of the suffering of Jesus.

The only thing they are asking for is equal exposure and equal rights. Just because Christianity has been THE religion for so long doesn't mean it has the only rights for this time of year.

The easiest way to do that to accomodate everyone is to not have any of them in a PUBLIC setting.

It's just much more equal to celebrate it as a pretty holiday with Santa Clause, Frosty the Snowman, cute seasonal shows (like The Christmas Toy from Jim Henson Productions) and a decorated tree along with good food.

Let Christmas be something that is non denominational. If you want to include religious meaning behind it, then do it for yourself but don't expect the rest of us to agree with you.

Happy Yule all and Blessed Be (yes I'm fully aware that this statement belies what I just said but if YOU can do this kind of thing, then I can too).

Then you can do your part to educate the public. If you have something to offer--offer it, inform people.

The problem is that the Atheists mentioned in the news story are NOT offering anything in place of or in addition to the tree that would be more ecumenical. They want complete removal. They want the building to look like it does anytime of year. That infringes upon people because it says that their beliefs are more important. They do not believe in any Christian holiday--so anything that relates to that holiday even if it is secular, should not be allowed. I wonder when they'll start suing the federal government for not having their mail delivered on a federal holiday? Oops, hope I didn't just given anyone an idea.

I'm not offended by your "Happy Yule" offertory--but think you would do us a service if you explain that aspect of the holiday season. The only time I see yule logs is in the form of a cake.

 

[4greatboys]

As a Pagan, I ask why things like Yule logs and public Yule decorations can't be present and yet I have to suffer scenes of the nativity and public displays of the suffering of Jesus.

I dont see how public Christian displays are "suffered". Im not Jewish but we see Jewish displays Im not "suffering" them or bothered by them. It certainly doesnt mean I have to be Jewish or believe what they believe. Its simply they are proud of their beliefs and want to celebrate them. I understand people have different beliefs than mine and just because we dont share the same beliefs doesnt mean they shouldnt be able to display theirs, just I have every right to display mine.
I also have the right, as you do, to either stop and enjoy the displays, or go past them and not give them a second thought--which is what Im capable of doing and not demanding it be hidden away so Im not inconvienenced.

 

[dmadman43]

No Christians are being stripped of their rights. Non-Christians are simply insisting that they be granted the same rights.

Namely, if Christmas must be celebrated and Christian symbols everywhere, then why can't Kwanzaa, Yule and Jewish holidays (sorry I can't spell it properly for this time of year so I'm not going to bother butchering the word) be given equal notice and celebration?

As a Pagan, I ask why things like Yule logs and public Yule decorations can't be present and yet I have to suffer scenes of the nativity and public displays of the suffering of Jesus.

The only thing they are asking for is equal exposure and equal rights. Just because Christianity has been THE religion for so long doesn't mean it has the only rights for this time of year.

The easiest way to do that to accomodate everyone is to not have any of them in a PUBLIC setting.

It's just much more equal to celebrate it as a pretty holiday with Santa Clause, Frosty the Snowman, cute seasonal shows (like The Christmas Toy from Jim Henson Productions) and a decorated tree along with good food.

Let Christmas be something that is non denominational. If you want to include religious meaning behind it, then do it for yourself but don't expect the rest of us to agree with you.

Happy Yule all and Blessed Be (yes I'm fully aware that this statement belies what I just said but if YOU can do this kind of thing, then I can too).

Good God! Gimme a break! Now it's a rights issue? Now I've heard everything.

Merry Christmas

 

[poohandwendy]

This kind of crap is getting out of hand. People need to get a grip.

My thoughts exactly...

 

[disykat]

Perhaps there ought to be a new rule that all display space should be equal. IMO that means that we would figure out the % of people of each religion who would be frequenting the building and each religion would be allotted that much space in the building to decorate as they please. I'm joking, but I honestly don't get why minorities expect to have "equal" representation when they are a minority. I understand equal rights, but I don't get equal respresentation.

 

[Puffy2]

As a firm believer in separation of church and state, the court was absolutely correct in siding with the city in this case. The tree is secular and therefore does not violate any separation laws.

 

[Jcricket Fan]

The following letter was printed in the Hartford Courant this morning.

*********************************************************
Bring Back Nativity Scenes
December 18, 2004
Michael Cook

I am an atheist. That means I do not believe in the supernatural. I don't believe in ghosts, witches, goblins or unicorns. I don't believe in the tooth fairy or the Easter Bunny. I also don't believe in gods such as Zeus or Poseidon, nor do I believe in the Judeo-Christian god. I do not believe in heaven or hell, and I believe dead is dead. This belief gives me a strong respect for life, born and unborn.

I do, however, believe that Jesus Christ was a philosopher with a legitimate and benevolent message. His message was one of peace and love. I do not believe Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God or some other supernatural being. I put him on the same level as Gandhi, the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. or Mother Teresa. If someone else wishes to believe he was or is more than that, so be it.

Having said that, I am sick and tired of anti-Christian bigots complaining about religious Christmas decorations on public lands. If you are a Christian, these decorations represent religious beliefs. If you are not a Christian, they are simply pretty decorations, no more significant than a jack-o'-lantern on Halloween or a shamrock on St. Patrick's Day. Christmas decorations are not going to harm anyone. There is nothing offensive going on here. We are not talking about displaying posters of Adolf Hitler. It frightens me that neo-Nazis can stage a parade and be supported by the American Civil Liberties Union, but a Nativity scene is considered offensive.

I put up a Christmas tree and display a Nativity scene in my home every year, and I am an atheist. This does not make me a hypocrite. I simply enjoy looking at things that remind me of a very good man who taught peace on Earth and goodwill toward men. What is wrong with that?

I hear that there are town greens that ban creches at Christmas. This is hate-driven paranoia. And it is very scary.

My experience in a Catholic grammar school was very positive. I liked it. I had good times, and the nuns were always nice to me. I never had a bad teacher until I left Catholic school. It was a public school teacher who made my life hell from September to June, not a nun. As I became more educated in science, I simply stopped believing in things like God and heaven.

That does not give me license to become an anti-Christian bigot. If I attend a Christian function, such as a wedding, I kneel when the crowd kneels and stand when the crowd stands. This is called good manners.

What is most unsettling is that the objections are related only to Christian decorations. We never hear of anyone complaining about Hanukkah or Kwanzaa decorations. If I were a Christian, I would be feeling very threatened.

This has the feeling of pre-World War II Germany.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

The following letter was printed in the Hartford Courant this morning.

*********************************************************
Bring Back Nativity Scenes
December 18, 2004
Michael Cook

I am an atheist. That means I do not believe in the supernatural. I don't believe in ghosts, witches, goblins or unicorns. I don't believe in the tooth fairy or the Easter Bunny. I also don't believe in gods such as Zeus or Poseidon, nor do I believe in the Judeo-Christian god. I do not believe in heaven or hell, and I believe dead is dead. This belief gives me a strong respect for life, born and unborn.

I do, however, believe that Jesus Christ was a philosopher with a legitimate and benevolent message. His message was one of peace and love. I do not believe Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God or some other supernatural being. I put him on the same level as Gandhi, the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. or Mother Teresa. If someone else wishes to believe he was or is more than that, so be it.

Having said that, I am sick and tired of anti-Christian bigots complaining about religious Christmas decorations on public lands. If you are a Christian, these decorations represent religious beliefs. If you are not a Christian, they are simply pretty decorations, no more significant than a jack-o'-lantern on Halloween or a shamrock on St. Patrick's Day. Christmas decorations are not going to harm anyone. There is nothing offensive going on here. We are not talking about displaying posters of Adolf Hitler. It frightens me that neo-Nazis can stage a parade and be supported by the American Civil Liberties Union, but a Nativity scene is considered offensive.

I put up a Christmas tree and display a Nativity scene in my home every year, and I am an atheist. This does not make me a hypocrite. I simply enjoy looking at things that remind me of a very good man who taught peace on Earth and goodwill toward men. What is wrong with that?

I hear that there are town greens that ban creches at Christmas. This is hate-driven paranoia. And it is very scary.

My experience in a Catholic grammar school was very positive. I liked it. I had good times, and the nuns were always nice to me. I never had a bad teacher until I left Catholic school. It was a public school teacher who made my life hell from September to June, not a nun. As I became more educated in science, I simply stopped believing in things like God and heaven.

That does not give me license to become an anti-Christian bigot. If I attend a Christian function, such as a wedding, I kneel when the crowd kneels and stand when the crowd stands. This is called good manners.

What is most unsettling is that the objections are related only to Christian decorations. We never hear of anyone complaining about Hanukkah or Kwanzaa decorations. If I were a Christian, I would be feeling very threatened.

This has the feeling of pre-World War II Germany.

Thanks for posting!!!!!!!!

An excellent point so eloquently written!

 

[totalia]

I think that the only places you see nativities and anything religious are at churches and at people's homes. Most community decorations are exactly what you are asking for - cute Santas, Snowman, etc. Where we live there just aren't a lot of people who are Jewish. I live in Iowa. I think it's mostly Christian. I'm not saying it's ALL Christian, but I think the majority is. I live in a big college town too that has a lot of diversity. I just haven't been exposed to anything other than Christianity or secular. Last year my daughter had a little girl in her class who was Jewish. They did Christmas activities. The school sang Christmas songs. But, my daughter also came home with some Jewish stuff. I think they made dreidels (sp?) I wasn't offended at all. I think it's important for my daughter to realize that people are diverse.

Ahh I see. That's why every Christmas there is a live public nativity in my city for two weeks before Christmas every night and also a reenactiment of Jesus' suffering on the cross every easter. Yes these are displayed on public gvt property. The nativity is downtown in a local park thats right across from the main mall of the city and very obvious when you walk out the doors. The reenactment is performed through the streets of the city for a week before easter.

Believe me it isn't just in peoples homes or in churches. It's out in the open in the public.

And yet I KNOW without a doubt that if I tried to get the local Wiccans together on Dec 21 for a public Yule celebration and ritual in a park, it would be denied by the city and if we tried to do it anyway, we would probably be arrested for public disruption.

At this time of year I have seen Christian righteousness rear its ugly head and its frightening. They actually get angry if non-christians protest and say that we are all against them. That isn't the case, we just want equal exposure and equal rights. You don't have to agree with us just like we don't have to agree with you.

Then you can do your part to educate the public. If you have something to offer--offer it, inform people.

The problem is that the Atheists mentioned in the news story are NOT offering anything in place of or in addition to the tree that would be more ecumenical. They want complete removal. They want the building to look like it does anytime of year. That infringes upon people because it says that their beliefs are more important. They do not believe in any Christian holiday--so anything that relates to that holiday even if it is secular, should not be allowed. I wonder when they'll start suing the federal government for not having their mail delivered on a federal holiday? Oops, hope I didn't just given anyone an idea.

I'm not offended by your "Happy Yule" offertory--but think you would do us a service if you explain that aspect of the holiday season. The only time I see yule logs is in the form of a cake.

I'm happy to inform people of it. The problem is that most of the population takes great offense to even hearing about it.

You asked about Yule. Dec 21 is the change of seasons. It's the time when winter is seen as truly beginning so the growing seasons are over and is a celebration of the "death" (or rather the going to sleep) of all the plants.

Each person in the Wiccan faith celebrates its differently but the generalities are that it is part of the turning of the seasons.

It is also the beginning of the god's time of year. Hmm that's sounds confusing so let me explain.

There are four seasons. Three belong to the goddess and one to the god. Spring is the time of youth and growing of the goddess. It's her maiden aspect just as it is a time of youth and growing for all the living plants and animals of the world.

Summer is the time of adulthood. It is during that time that the living things are fertile and at their strongest. It is the time that the goddess is celebrated in her mother aspect. Usually as being pregnant.

Fall is the time of elder knowledge and wisdom and the goddess is celebrated in her Crone aspect as an older woman with much knowledge to impart if you only listen. It's the time when growing things are aging and many are dying or preparing for the winter.

The Winter is the time of the God. It's because of him that life continues though the gods are seen as equal in every way. He is always seen and strong and beautiful at this time of year and he imparts the same on those who must live through the winter.

A yule log isn't just a cake. It's an ancient tradition. It's a log fallen from a tree (in north america, its usually the pine tree and ISN'T cut because to cut it is an insult to nature. It must have fallen because only that is a gift from nature instead of being forcibly taken) and is soaked in herbs and spices to deliver a sweet smell through the house when burned. It's burned throughout the day and sometimes we often burn it into the morning.

Just as you do, we eat good rich food, dance, drink and celebrate throughout this time of year. Well, if you can get enough Wiccans together we do. Unfortunately because of the way we often get treated, Wiccans are reluctant to reveal themselves and usually just celebrate with everyone else and not say anything though they perform their own rituals in private when no one else is around. We have a long tradition of secrecy born out of fear of persecution.

We also say our own prayers, perform our own rituals, and decorate with natural gifts from nature (often made into pretty decorations).

Since there are such major differences between Wiccans about how they celebrate the holy days, there is no exact ritual or anything that I can tell you except the general stuff I have already spoken of. I imagine other Wiccans would like to add (or even detract from) to the explanation.