Athiests fight public display of "giving" tree

[septbride2002]

Ah yes. The "chicken or the egg" argument.

The person who wants the "giving" tree to stay is offended if it's removed and the other person is offended if it stays.

There is *no* solution to this problem that would satisfy both.

What is your suggestion?

It never ceases to amaze me Elwood how you come into a debate and stir the pot but never offer an resolution. I asked a simple question - in her opinion who should be tolerant.

My suggestion is that the athiest need to be educated on the fact that the Christmas tree is no a Christian symbol but rather a pagan symbol that Christians adapted. If you had read the entire thread you may have picked up on that.

Next time offer your own suggestion.

~Amanda

 

[mickeyminnie]

it doesn't matter if it is a pagan or christian symbol, technically paganism is a religion, or if you want to be more generic, a belief, as is atheism (sp?), so by removing all christian symbols or jewish or muslim, or druidic, or pagan, or what ever religious symbols aren't you actually catering to athestic beliefs and trying to "shove that down our throats" ???

I do not believe you can teach tolerance by removal. It seems to me that the big push is to be tolerant of differences, I agree, but what about being tolerant of the samenesses ( for lack of a better word).

I heard one talk show person say it best, christianity might be the target now but other religions will be next if they get rid of all the christian stuff.

I believe the original phrase was freedom OF religion, not FROM religion

 

[ericamanda01]

I have the perfect solution! Leave the tree but add a symbol for every other religion next to it. ie- Pentacle, Menorah and for the athiest put up a table and leave it empty. If that's what they believe in then let everyone see it!

If the tree is there to give a famliy, reguardless of religion, a nice gift or two then leave it there and shut up! If those that are offended by it can come up with a better way to display those families in need then bring it! Otherwise SHUT UP!!!

I am sick to death of all the PC crap! What do I care if one of my neighbors celebrates Kwanza and the other celebrates Chanaka. I don't and I love to see the decorations they display. People like the one in question really need a hobbie, or a dr. Because if a tree offends him then he needs to seek help!!! Does anyone know if this couple has written to the white house and asked them to remove their trees or perhaps Rockerfeller Center in New York and asked them to remove the tree there!?!?!?!

I am sorry if I offended anyone here, but I just can't take this PC stuff anymore! It has gotten out of hand! So to all of you I wish you a "Happy Christmahanakwanza!"

 

[Elwood Blues]

It never ceases to amaze me Elwood how you come into a debate and stir the pot but never offer an resolution. I asked a simple question - in her opinion who should be tolerant.

My suggestion is that the atheist need to be educated on the fact that the Christmas tree is no a Christian symbol but rather a pagan symbol that Christians adapted. If you had read the entire thread you may have picked up on that.

Next time offer your own suggestion.

~Amanda

I take lessons from dmadman43. I guess they're working.

Oh, and I have read the entire thread.

I did state my opinion. There is *no* solution that would satisfy both parties fully. Someone will end up being offended or upset. And I said that when you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.

But what it really boils down to is that one person likes it there just for sentimental/traditional reasons while the other person wants it removed because they believe it's unconstitutional. Everyday we see people that do things that are illegal. In most cases, we just ignore them. Religion seems to be under microscope these days. So unless the US Government or the State passes a law that legally compels me to follow a certain religion, I see no problem with any displays of *any* religious symbols or celebrations that include traditional religious fare on public property.

So what happens after the atheist gets "educated" about the history of the tree? The courts have already sided with the city. It's my opinion that they should just "suck it up" and move on to something else to complain about.

 

[dcentity2000]

What?!?

ie. Disproportionate representation of one ethnic or religious group in a minority for political reasons



Rich::

 

[dcentity2000]

I'm going to stand by jurisprudence on this one:

The greatest good for the greatest number

Most find Christmas to be a religious festival and celebration in America, a great deal of those who don't enjoy it anyway.

So by keeping the tree and the star, we perform the greatest good for the greatest number

Of course we should respect those who don't subscribe to our points of view - but the same goes for them. We won't censor them, they won't censor us.

Simple



Rich::

 

[Elwood Blues]

ie. Disproportionate representation of one ethnic or religious group in a minority for political reasons



Rich::

That would be discrimination, not racism as you stated earlier.

 

[C.Ann]

Same arguement - different year..

There are far more important things people should be fighting for..

 

[Amberle3]

No you cannot ask them to remove piercings because that is done on their person which is a private institution and can therefore express any belief, and practice on themselves no matter how barbaric it is. However the tree is in a government building. A government that is suppose to be seperate from religion.

Ah, but what if the person with the piercings were a government employee? Would I have a right to complain (to the media even!) about the piercings and ask for them to be removed?

Going a step further, what if it wasn't piercings but say... a cross or star of David the employee was wearing? If an athiest goes in to a government building, deals with an employee wearing a religious item, does the athiest have the right to demand that the employees should not wear religious items because he/she finds them offensive?

Maybe they need to have a strict dress code that restricts the kind of jewelry one can wear, or the length of their hair, or the amount of facial hair, and what they can wear... then it would be....

... well actually then it would be Disney

Just trying to lighten things up a bit

 

[septbride2002]

Ah, but what if the person with the piercings were a government employee? Would I have a right to complain (to the media even!) about the piercings and ask for them to be removed?

Going a step further, what if it wasn't piercings but say... a cross or star of David the employee was wearing? If an athiest goes in to a government building, deals with an employee wearing a religious item, does the athiest have the right to demand that the employees should not wear religious items because he/she finds them offensive?

Maybe they need to have a strict dress code that restricts the kind of jewelry one can wear, or the length of their hair, or the amount of facial hair, and what they can wear... then it would be....

... well actually then it would be Disney

Just trying to lighten things up a bit

 

[dmadman43]

Positive discrimination is racism.



Rich::

Please define the word "racism" and use it in a sentence. Thanks.

 

[septbride2002]

Please define the word "racism" and use it in a sentence. Thanks.

Seriously - there is not need to be so condescening - if you disagree just state it and move on instead of starting a pissing contest between the two of you again.

~Amanda

 

[minniepumpernickel]

This one is stretching a bit. Especially since the pine tree or evergreen tree really was used in pagan religions as a sign of fertility and rebirth. Therefore techincally not the Christmas Tree is actually a pagan symbol and not a Christian symbol.

BUT ANYWAY - both sides have a point. If it is going to be a 'giving' tree then they should take off the traditional holiday ornaments and only have the request for the needy families on the tree. However I can see City Hall wanting to make it pleasing to the eye.

~Amanda

I agree with Amanda on this one. I've had a tree before and decorated it with seahells and nature things. I know a lot of Jewish people who would probably not approve of the Christmas tree showing up in city hall. Did they think to put a menorah up beside it? it doesn't really matter to me personally, but why do Christains always have to be the center of attention? Or have their symbol be the center?

 

[stevenpensacola]

Paul Harvey says: "I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going
to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December.

I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer
when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution.

Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not
be endangered because someone says a 30-second
prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal?
It's not like somebody is up there reading
the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God
they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players
on the field and the fans going home from the game.
"But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is
the United States of America, a country founded on Christian
principles. According to our very own phone book,
Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1.
So what would you expect-somebody chanting Hare Krishna?
If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to
hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad,
I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a
ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray
to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother
me one bit. When in Rome... "But what about the atheists?"
is another argument. What about them? Nobody is asking
them to be baptized.. We're not going to pass the collection
plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds.. If that's asking
too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the
bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer.
Unfortunately, one or two will make that call.

One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do.
I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to
shake the world's foundations.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other
cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights.
Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before
eating, to pray before we go to sleep.
Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful
of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.
God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you,
well..........just sue me. The silent majority has been silent
too long.. it's time we let that one or two who scream
loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care
what they want.. it is time the majority rules! It's time
we tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don't have to say
the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or
attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and
we will honor your right....but by golly, you are no longer
going to take our rights away. We are fighting back....and we
WILL WIN! God bless us one and all, especially those
who denounce Him... God bless America, despite all her faults,
she is still the greatest nation of all.....

God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right
to pray and worship God... May 2005 be the year the silent
majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our
families and institutions. Keep looking up...... In God WE Trust.

 

[Madi100]

That is absolutely ridiculous. I really don't care what the origins or the Christmas tree or Santa Claus are. I'm willing to bet that most Americans don't. The Christmas tree and Santa Claus are cultural things. I think Americans have done a mighty fine job of making each and every major holiday secular. I don't think Halloween is evil. I don't think Easter or Christmas have to be religious. If I simply put up a tree, bought presents, listened to Jingle Bells, and gave Santa my Christmas list I have done nothing to celebrate a religious holiday. I have celebrated a very secular holiday. It is only when I put out our nativity or take my children to church, read them the Christmas story from the Bible, and talk about the fact that we celebrate Christmas because it is Jesus' birthday that it becomes a religious holiday. I bet there are many, many people in this world that put up a tree, open gifts, and visit Santa that won't mention the name Jesus in their home, unless they stub their big toe

The Giving Tree isn't even a Christmas related thing. It is a story by Shel Silverstein. It's about giving of yourself until there is nothing left to give.

I would be interested to see if these people that are causing such a stink about a tree are also avoiding all retail stores this holiday season. I've yet to be in any of them that don't advertise that the holidays are here.

 

[septbride2002]

Paul Harvey says: "I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going
to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December.

I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer
when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution.
Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other
cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights.
Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before
eating, to pray before we go to sleep.
Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful
of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.
God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you,
well..........just sue me. The silent majority has been silent
too long.. it's time we let that one or two who scream
loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care
what they want.. it is time the majority rules! It's time
we tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don't have to say
the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or
attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and
we will honor your right....but by golly, you are no longer
going to take our rights away. We are fighting back....and we
WILL WIN! God bless us one and all, especially those
who denounce Him... God bless America, despite all her faults,
she is still the greatest nation of all.

1) There have been several discussion/debates where people did not thing that Darwin's theory of evolution should be taught in their schools. Conduct a search on the board if you like and you will see it is true.

2) What rights are being infringed upon by not having a Christmas tree at City Hall?

3) No one is saying that you cannot practice your religion - what we are saying is that our government should not just select one religion to be represented but all religions. I'm not sure why you feel that is against you - because it truly isn't.

4) Religion should not be about the majority rule!

~Amanda

 

[goofy4tink]

1) There have been several discussion/debates where people did not thing that Darwin's theory of evolution should be taught in their schools. Conduct a search on the board if you like and you will see it is true.

2) What rights are being infringed upon by not having a Christmas tree at City Hall?

3) No one is saying that you cannot practice your religion - what we are saying is that our government should not just select one religion to be represented but all religions. I'm not sure why you feel that is against you - because it truly isn't.

4) Religion should not be about the majority rule!

~Amanda

It's #3 that I have an issue with. It's not the gov't that is putting up a Christmas tree. It's people!!! Yes, they work in a gov't office but if there were to be a Jewish employee or a Muslim employee, they should also be free to have their particular decorations up. #2...what about my right to celebrate my holiday?

This whole thing about 'not offending' anyone is getting out of control. A girl I know works in a bank. THe manager put up a Christmas tree. About a week later, a customer came in and complained. This customer went to great lenghts to lodge a formal complaint that no Jewish symbols had been displayed. Well, there are no Jewish employees there!

Again, I say...this country was founded on Christian beliefs. For sure, maybe not what someone today believes in. But, those beliefs make it possible for ALL to practice whatever they choose to believe. Our country could be in danger of being greatly watered down, just so that no one is offended by one symbol or another. We all need to get a grip and tolerate other people's beliefs. I don't get upset if I see a Menoral displayed in an office. Why in heavens name would someone be upset if they see a Christmas tree in the work-place? Yes, Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ. But let's be honest here. Exactly how many out there are truly celebrating that? It's a gift giving holiday, plain and simple. There is plenty of room in this country for those who celebrate the season in any of a multitude of ways.

Festival of Lights....celebrating a wonderful harvest and a great abundance, or the birth of Christ....all good reasons to celebrate. Happy New Year all!!

 

[maleficent1959]

Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not
be endangered because someone says a 30-second
prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal?

And how does NOT saying a public prayer at a secular event shake the foundations of your faith?

Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles.

Or a bunch of deists but I digress.

According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1.

True, here in Pensacola we only have two synagogues and one mosque. But there is an incredible diversity in Christian denominations and they don't all agree on this issue. Do you want to call Rabbi Ostrich at Temple Beth El and tell him that he doesn't count because he's Jewish?

If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to
hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit.

Now would it offend me, but those countries have a different history and tradition of church and state matters.

"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized..

Tell that to my Mormon former boyfriend.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.

I feel free to pray and worhsip however and whenever I want. I really don't see that my right to worship is being stripped. My faith is deeply personal and I don't think it offends God if my money doesn't have His name on it. In fact, it just might offend Him that His name is tied to a pledge of allegiance to something other than Himself.

The silent majority has been silent too long.. it's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want.. it is time the majority rules! It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray.. ... WE WILL WIN!

You make it sound like a religious war and maybe to you it is. I, like you, am Christian and I love America too. I love her multi-storied history and I revel in her rich and colorful diversity. What a sad day it would be if we only saw fit to celebrate the majority.

God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right
to pray and worship God...

So THAT'S what the war is about. We're fighting in Iraq so American Christians can openly worship...I guess I was confused.

 

[septbride2002]

So THAT'S what the war is about. We're fighting in Iraq so American Christians can openly worship...I guess I was confused.

you need to warn someone before you post something like that! Water is now all over my monitor!

~Amanda

 

[rubyslipperlover]

what gets me tis the line about Jewish prayer in Jerusalem."

although it has a secular system of law -- after all, 1/6 of the population isn't Jewish -- and freedom of religion is guaranteed -- the documents signed by Israel's founding fathers label the country a "homeland for the Jewish people".


ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

PLACING OUR TRUST IN THE ALMIGHTY, WE AFFIX OUR SIGNATURES TO THIS PROCLAMATION AT THIS SESSION OF THE PROVISIONAL COUNCIL OF STATE, ON THE SOIL OF THE HOMELAND, IN THE CITY OF TEL-AVIV, ON THIS SABBATH EVE, THE 5TH DAY OF IYAR, 5708 (14TH MAY,1948).



that's a bit different from the US Constitution and the first amendment.

see:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/decind.html