Are average children

[penn19]

I have an above average child and an average child. My average child is a very sensory learner who excels in a small group atmosphere. I have complained all through her elementary years that it is the average kids like her who get the shaft. They are not at the top of the heap, they don't have special needs. As long as they behave properly, they are just left to float along.

I was actually glad in a way that she scored a little low on her reading assessments last year. It qualified her for some small group instruction. She absolutely flourished in that group. But as soon as her scores improved, she wasn't eligible for the group anymore. Bummer.

This exactly! I have had the same problem. My one child was a good kid, kept his nose clean, but struggled. A lot. I almost wanted to tell hiim "hey get in trouble, you will get more attention/help that way". He didn't give the teachers any problems so he was left to just "float along". Then he just floated through the rest of school and graduated. Barely. The schools are not helping kids like this at all.

 

[Feralpeg]

I heard that this thread had gotten better and it appears to be true.

I see some saying that all kids should have IEP's but that just isn't feasible. With schools slashing staff to the bare minimum, I would think that those average kids without any special accomodations will likely get less and less individualized attention. It's sad but the schools can only do so much.

I agree. The only way to make sure that each child's learning style is accomodated would be to either increase the number of teachers dramatically and divide classes accordingly or, homeschool kids and teach each child using their individual learning style. Neither option is feasible for most.

 

[DMRick]

Hmmm...someone doesn't seem to be able to get pm's anymore. I must have missed something while I was out to diner.

 

[LisaR]

The school policy states that each child is admitted based on their grades and test scores and that siblings do not get special treatment. For example one of DD's friends is in 9th grade (same as DD) and has an older brother that is a senior. DD's friend had to go through the exact same application process as DD. There are students at the school that have younger siblings that were not accepted.

That is great and the way it should be! I wish they did it that way around here. Even the high school IB program gives siblings priority and doesn't require the same standards as they do for the original child.

 

[indimom]

This is actually one of my biggest complaints about our school district at the High School level. There are two groups: Honors/AP, and everyone else. My DS15 isn't in any honors classes. He's a bright kid, but he's not driven, and is satisfied just doing the minimum amount of work to get A's and B's. Honors would send him over the edge emotionally.

BUT, being grouped with "everyone else"...not good either. He's got kids in his classes who just don't give a crap. They cut class, skip school, curse at teachers, and basically don't want to be there. Teachers take instructional time away from the "average" kids dealing with the ones who disrupt. My college bound kid is getting less of an education because he didn't test into honors. In fact, honors kids in our high school get actual textbooks to take home with them. "Academic" kids...one set of classroom books to be shared by several classes. Fair? I think not.

I graduated from the same school district, but back in my day, we had Honors/AP, College Prep, and everyone else. Most of my friends were in college prep. I knew very few people in honors.

Now, because there is no college prep anymore, people are fighting to get their kids into honors when they don't really qualify. They don't pass the entry tests, but parents want their kids with kids who excel, not kids who are selling drugs on the corner after school. And I totally understand why, after hearing some of the things that my DS15 tells me that go on in his academic classes.

It's really a shame. Moving isn't an option for us, and neither is private school. We live where we can afford to live, and private school is not in our budget.

Man, textbooks? Really?

Okay, I think my high school daughter's getting shortchanged in her gifted (aka honors) classes... Not only have I NEVER seen a textbook, but she has the choice of either paying for her own workbooks or using scrap paper to do the assignments and returning them unmarked. Even when she was in a class for kids above the 99.8th percentile, they were still all getting photocopied pages from the teacher's ONE math text.

I'm clearly living the wrong school district.

Sounds like your district cut ALL THE WAY back, huh?

One of DS15's friends had honors history, DS had academic history. The friend had a history book. DS did not. I commented to the friend: "Wow, you get a book?" His comment: "Yeah, honors kids get them because we care more about school".

This isn't necessarily a school learned comment, but more likely a parent learned one, but still. There is a certain amount of superiority that comes from being in those classes, and it stinks. Just because DS15 isn't in honors, doesn't mean he doesn't care about school. Geesh.

Okay, I'm no longer going to complain about my school system. Sharing books????

I was going to post that at our school, all of the students get a book at school AND at home, until my daughter just corrected me. She is in advanced classes and apparently only the advanced students get a second text to keep at home. Go figure. This thread actually taught me something. But, still I think it's ridiculous that the students who may be struggling can't even bring a book home with them? WHAT?

(And for the record, I consider my kids average. )

 

[monsterkitty]

I heard that this thread had gotten better and it appears to be true.

I see some saying that all kids should have IEP's but that just isn't feasible. With schools slashing staff to the bare minimum, I would think that those average kids without any special accomodations will likely get less and less individualized attention. It's sad but the schools can only do so much.

Everyone of our students who is not on an IEP or 504 is put on a PLP - a Personalized Learning Plan for each subject. The literacy teachers have 90 kids to put on PLPs.As an elective teacher I have 230 students to write plans for. I cheat and do a lot of cutting and pasting when I am writing the plans.

 

[MrsPete]

a thing of the past? It seems most DIS kids are gifted. My kids are average and awesome despite their averageness

I think a part of this is that people "self-select" the posts to which they'll respond. We tend to become involved in posts that involve our interests, and we tend to become good at the things that interest us.

So you'll see me respond to things concerning academics, arts and scouts 'cause that's what my kids do -- and they excel at them. You won't hear any responses from me on music or sports; my kids aren't into those things. Also, IF I had anything to say about music or sports, my kids'd be very average. Hearing that my kid sings in the chorus at church and is never going to have a solo just isn't interesting, and I'm not likely to spend time writing about it. We like to talk about the things at which our kids are above average!

Make sense?

At the same time, a couple other things come into play:
- Some people exaggerate online.
- Giftedness is over-diagnosed these days. Even our students who are downright incapable tend to be described by their parents as "smart but unmotivated" or "intelligent, but doesn't fit the academic mold". Sometimes it's quite clear to everyone else that these kids are middle-of-the-road average.

Actually, no, I don't wonder that at all. None of the gifted kids (or, to be more accurate, the kids who have been labeled by our school system as "gifted") I know are withdrawn. Some are shy, some are very outgoing, just like all kids. Also, it seems you are making the assumption that my child is not gifted? Why is that? Just because I joke about the parents who are always yammering about their gifted children? This thread isn't about the kids. It's about the parents.

A genuinely gifted kid tends to be gifted in multiple areas, and USUALLY that comes with enhanced social skills. Kids who are gifted but have a learning disability in one area are incredibly rare; kids who are diagnosed in this way are PROBABLY strong-average students with good study habits and strong motivation who excel because of their hard work . . . but are somewhat stinted in one subject.

But I have known a few super-intelligent kids who were very withdrawn, but they're so few that I don't even see one every year at school. I'm thinking of one who was in my own graduating class. He was a nice boy but just didn't know how to talk to others. He was genuinely brilliant; in retrospect, I wonder if he didn't have some type of Autism. I don't know -- that was a long time ago, and I wasn't aware of such things then. And I'm thinking of a boy I taught years ago who was born to much-older parents after the tragic and violent death of his brother. Since he was the "replacement child", they did everything except keep him in a plastic bubble, and he was far from normal socially. But really, these don't-fit-in-socially gifted kids aren't typical.

I teach special ed, and I can tell you one thing--my students may all have disabilities, but every one of them is special and gifted in their own way.

I've taught LOTS of kids who struggle in school, but it's obvious that they're going to be just fine once they're out in the world and can CHOOSE to avoid all things academic. These are the kids who are going to go on to be good citizens who will work hard at jobs that suit them, raise their families well, and be just fine in the world -- they just aren't academic.

That perception tends to be common because of the number of kids with mild Aspergers who end up in formal gifted programs in grade school. They tend to be placed there because they do often do very well on IQ tests, but also because they are difficult to manage in a regular classroom. They are the kids that other kids will remember because of how "different" they are.

These are the kids I was describing above -- they're the ones who are extremely rare, and I see one every couple years.

What does "gifted" mean in real life, anyway?

Years ago I knew a girl when she was about 11. Everyone kept talking about how when she was in first grade she had scored really high on her IQ test and was sooo "gifted". In all the time I knew her I never saw a sign that she was even smart. I never saw her touch a book, engage in any creative activity or skill....all she did was look in the mirror trying clothes and make up, run after boys and talk on the phone.

Last I heard of her she was a high school drop out, had two children by two diffrent men (married neither one) and didn't have a job.

Since meeting her I don't think those test scores are worth the paper they are printed on

Giftedness is one measure, while accomplishment is a separate topic. A person can be quite gifted, yet never bother to do anything with those gifts. Or a person can be rather average, yet through hard work, accomplish quite a bit.

In my very unscientific opinion, most people's ability level and accomplishment levels are rather similar -- that is, people with more ability tend to accomplish more, but that's not a hard-and-fast-rule.

It's just a matter of sematics. To me advanced means better than average - say the top 30% of the class; gifted would be the top 10%, with all the variations specified in my previous post. Profoundly Gifted would be what we think of as a prodigy or genius.

No, it's not semantics. You're not "gifted" just because you're in the top 30% of your class. You're gifted because you're genuinely far, far beyond your same-aged peers -- and not because of hard work or enriched environment, but because of natural, God-given talent.

Need proof? Ask any teacher, and he or she will tell you that classes have personalities and ability levels. (By class, I mean the whole grade level, not Mrs. Smith's 4th grade.) My older child's graduating class is really, really strong academically. A higher-than-average number of kids is taking honors/AP classes, they're scoring well on the SAT, and there are other signs -- they are an outstanding group. My younger child's graduating class is much more average academically. So . . . the top 30% in my older child's class is higher-achieving than the top 30% in my younger child's class -- so how can 30% be gifted? Simple: They can't. My older child's class has a larger number of gifted students, but simply being at the top of your peer group doesn't equal giftedness.

Also, 30% is much too high a number for giftedness. 10% is too high a number for true giftedness.

BONK! BONK! BONK! You are using the wrong terminology. Once again, your DD is advanced and advantaged but that does not mean she is gifted. You are interchanging gifted and advanced. Most children who have lots of academic stimulus are advanced, but that does not equate to gifted. Gifted is a God given talent that doesn't need the constant prodding of adults.

You're exactly right, but these terms have been used as synonyms for so many years that people THINK of them as the same thing. Most kids who are described as "gifted" these days are actually good students who are the products of an enriched environment.

I disagree and I think we are fooling ourselves if we really think kids today are that much smarter than those from past generations.

I don't see any signs that we have a larger number of gifted kids today . . . but we absolutely have a larger group of kids who come from very academically enriched homes. When I was a kid, most of us came from families of 3-6 kids. Our parents' time and money was divided out pretty thinly. We didn't have classes, workshops, travel opportunities -- but today many parents live to push their kids academically, and even those who don't use it as a recreational sport do more of it than the average parent did back when I was a child.

Of course, there are two other important points to this concept:
- I am also certain that the opposite is true: We have a group of parents who are utterly clueless about their children's education and who do absolutely nothing to prepare their kids for school or to support them through the process.
- I never knew anyone my age who "burned out" after high school or college, or who needed a "gap year" to recover from the rigours of education. We were never pushed as hard as some kids today, nor were we made to think that our entire self-worth was tied up in our academic performance.

oh I wholly agree. Another dynamic is a child can be gifted in math and challenged in history. People think that being gifted means you are brilliant in everything.

Possible, but exceedingly unlikely. Genuine giftedness DOES mean above average in multiple ways. A person who's "gifted" at one thing really isn't "gifted" at all -- he or she just has a talent for that one thing (or two things). That's not a put-down; it's just the correct use of the word "gifted".

You do realize gifted kids often make fun of all those lowly average kids too? I see it everyday at work. "What? You're still on addition fact tables, I finished those in 2nd grade? hahahaha!" "That assignment is easy, I can't believe you are still working on it!" There is no exempt group when it comes to being made fun of at school. 99% of kids will be made fun of for something at some point.

Yes, SOME kids of all ability levels make fun of those at different achievement levels. MOST do not because they know it's improper.

GT kids are no more teased than any other student in a school. Teasing happens in every school, public, private, etc. It is a part of growing up. Yes, it can go too far, but calling a student brainiac isn't worse than calling a student the "r" word or gay. While the teasing hurts the child still should be taught coping skills.

True. In my classroom experience, A SMALL PERCENTAGE of the teasing that goes on deals with academics. If I had to pick the #1 thing about which kids are teased, it'd be physical characteristics: Clothing, weight, unusual things like a big nose or skinny legs or skin color.

Gifted children DO NOT get IEPs

True, and that's federal law, so it's not a case of "it works this way here". Trust me, I spend a great deal of time dealing with IEPs.

Kids with IEPs can have them for medical reasons, behavioral reasons, and academic reasons.

Those'd be 504s.

 

[Goofyluver]

True, and that's federal law, so it's not a case of "it works this way here".

Sure it is.

In my previous state, "gifted" fell under the special ed umbrella. Those children were placed on IEP's.

I've personally conducted hundreds of 'em myself as case manager.

In my current state, gifted does not fall under the special ed umbrella and therefore those kids don't receive IEP's. It's a state education dept. decision, not federal.

Just a question, what kind of teacher are you?

Those'd be 504s.

No. Those would be IEP's.

A child with behavioral concerns can qualify for services and be placed on an IEP because he or she has behavior that adversely affects his or her academics. Same for those with medical issues.

504's are something entirely different.

 

[Magpie]

Wait a minute, something is very wrong here. Gifted children DO NOT get IEPs. Children who have a deficiency get IEPs. If a child has an IEP it is because there is a need for individual education to bring them up to the level of their peers.

There is more to this story and I believe this poster is playing both side of the fence.

No, it varies by district, and maybe by province or country. In MY school district "gifted" is part of "special education" and the gifted kids come under the same umbrella as the disabled kids (of course, some are both).

Access to the program is granted purely on the basis of IQ scores, not achievement. If there's 30 available places, then the top 30 kids get in. There's always a waiting list. Most gifted classes seem have at least one autistic kid, and a couple ADD kids.

The program was created in response to a shockingly high drop out rate among Gifted and Talented kids, several decades ago. Apparently most of them weren't graduating. The district experimented with accelerating them, but then they had a whole contingent of 16yos entering college and that didn't work out so well. So they went with "broader and deeper, not faster" instead. A lot of the elementary curriculum is aimed at keeping the kids on level, but entertained and challenged enough that they won't run away or burn the school down.

Periodically they try to do away with the program altogether. I voted for my local school trustee because she openly supports the gifted program.

Sounds like your district cut ALL THE WAY back, huh?

One of DS15's friends had honors history, DS had academic history. The friend had a history book. DS did not. I commented to the friend: "Wow, you get a book?" His comment: "Yeah, honors kids get them because we care more about school".

This isn't necessarily a school learned comment, but more likely a parent learned one, but still. There is a certain amount of superiority that comes from being in those classes, and it stinks. Just because DS15 isn't in honors, doesn't mean he doesn't care about school. Geesh.

That DOES stink! But at the same time, it kind of makes me feel better about our situation. At least our kids are all equally deprived. It's democracy in action!

 

[southern_redhead]

Then you wonder why gifted kids are withdrawn. They are withdrawn because theyre treated like they are diseased simply because they are gifted.

You need to move to my district. I was in the gifted program in school, none of us were treated as if we were diseased. You want to be treated like a leper - put your child with "average" athletic ability on a youth baseball team. We eventually gave that up for my older son. He might as well have never dressed out and come to the game, he was played rarely IF ever. My youngest is very talented in sports - imagine my suprise that I am no longer the leper parent with the coaches

Join us in laughing at you talking about your children!!

No one is laughing at gifted children. The whole point of the OP was that "everyone" seems to think they have a gifted, whether discovered or not, child. Clearly, this should be the minority of people. If we ALL had IQ's in the 130-140 range, then that would become the new "norm". You'd have to be above 140 to even be mildly gifted....

I disagree and I think we are fooling ourselves if we really think kids today are that much smarter than those from past generations.

They certainly have less common sense than most of their predecessors.

As a teacher once said to me, "There is nothing wrong with being average as long as you are a good person."

You do realize gifted kids often make fun of all those lowly average kids too? I see it everyday at work. "What? You're still on addition fact tables, I finished those in 2nd grade? hahahaha!" "That assignment is easy, I can't believe you are still working on it!" There is no exempt group when it comes to being made fun of at school. 99% of kids will be made fun of for something at some point.

Yes, many people tend to think that prejudices only run one way. That is rarely, if ever, true. I have heard *a few* kids make remarks about some of our more intelligent students (but to hear one of them's parent tell it, EVERY remark...even "I wish I'd made 100 like XYZ did." is a slight to their child) and I've heard those same, *gifted* children remark "WHY can't you do this? It's easy for me!" or "I'm already done with that assignment, it's because I'm smarter." And, no, those kids aren't being "bad" they are being "rude", which is what children do unless their parents teach them better manners.

Wait a minute, something is very wrong here. Gifted children DO NOT get IEPs. Children who have a deficiency get IEPs. If a child has an IEP it is because there is a need for individual education to bring them up to the level of their peers.

There is more to this story and I believe this poster is playing both side of the fence.

I was considered gifted and we all fell under the SpEd umbrella. I don't know what our "plans" were called but we all had one. We were pulled out for 2 hours per week for "enrichment" activities and that had to be put into a written plan.

_________________________________________________

FWIW, I tested "gifted" and I graduated from HS a year early. I have three children. The oldest struggles, the middle child is capable but I would classify her as average, the youngest struggles more than the oldest did at his age. I am currently trying to get the youngest and the oldest 504s. Any child who is "middle of the road" falls through the cracks at our school. If you are very intelligent the teachers notice you and keep up with your progress, if you are very disabled the teachers are forced, by law, to keep up with your progress. Anyone else, it's best of luck to you! Frankly, we have too many discipline problems for any of our teachers to be effective. Education is in a sad state.

 

[plutotek]

I think this article demonstrates an objective example of a gifted child.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelo...r-old-astrophysics-prodigy-the-skys-the-limit

 

[plutotek]

I think our friend, dngnb8, is too new here to understand the context of the thread.

And he's gotten emotionally invested too quickly. He registered a week ago on 3/23/11 and has 240+ posts already. That's a lot of posts to rack up in a week. I doubt I posted that many times so far in 2011 and probably much less in many whole years that I've been a Disboards member.

He reminds me of a fun poster who was here last year, TestifyOnCruises. TOC racked up a ton of posts in a short amount of time too.

Also reminds me of another poster from last year who had a history of getting banned here and on other boards (can't recall the name). He used the same circular logic to answer direct questions instead of providing corroborating evidence/statements to his sanctimonious comments/accusations.

 

[rie'smom]

No one is laughing at gifted children. The whole point of the OP was that "everyone" seems to think they have a gifted, whether discovered or not, child. Clearly, this should be the minority of people. If we ALL had IQ's in the 130-140 range, then that would become the new "norm". You'd have to be above 140 to even be mildly gifted....

Gifted starts at 115:
Mildly Gifted -- 115 to 129
Moderately Gifted -- 130 to 144
Highly Gifted -- 145 to 159
Exceptionally Gifted -- 160 to 179
Profoundly Gifted -- 180

I think this article demonstrates an objective example of a gifted child.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelo...r-old-astrophysics-prodigy-the-skys-the-limit

No, he is a genius.

115-124 - Above average (e.g., university students)
125-134 - Gifted (e.g., post-graduate students)
135-144 - Highly gifted (e.g., intellectuals)
145-154 - Genius (e.g., professors)
155-164 - Genius (e.g., Nobel Prize winners)
165-179 - High genius
180-200 - Highest genius
>200 - "Unmeasurable genius"

 

[powellrj]

As usual I am coming late to the party! I just wanted to add that I had a meeting with DDs school a few weeks ago concerning a scholarship that the parents group is wanting to start. We were told that anymore there are very few average kids. You either have kids that do very, very well or kids that are barely passing.

Our circumstances are different than other schools in that we are a small school who increased their student population by about 20% last year by taking a neighboring districts kids because their system is failing. We are part of that 20% who left our system, so our current school could pick the top kids from the other district to attend.

I just found it interesting that kids are either doing well or not doing well and there isn't really a middle ground anymore.

 

[golfgal]

Maybe this has already been said, didn't read all of the responses, but DIS is not a representative sample for something like this. The majority of people here are professionals with good jobs and good salaries. People that excel in the 'work world' tend to be more intelligent and marry like people, thus passing those genes down to their children. It would be normal to see a higher rate of above average students given the sample.

 

[punkin]

115-124 - Above average (e.g., university students)
125-134 - Gifted (e.g., post-graduate students)
135-144 - Highly gifted (e.g., intellectuals)
145-154 - Genius (e.g., professors)
155-164 - Genius (e.g., Nobel Prize winners)
165-179 - High genius
180-200 - Highest genius
>200 - "Unmeasurable genius"

This makes sense if the average is 100 (by definition). This would put many many children into some sort of "gifted" category.

 

[cm8]

I think a part of this is that people "self-select" the posts to which they'll respond. We tend to become involved in posts that involve our interests, and we tend to become good at the things that interest us.

So you'll see me respond to things concerning academics, arts and scouts 'cause that's what my kids do -- and they excel at them. You won't hear any responses from me on music or sports; my kids aren't into those things. Also, IF I had anything to say about music or sports, my kids'd be very average. Hearing that my kid sings in the chorus at church and is never going to have a solo just isn't interesting, and I'm not likely to spend time writing about it. We like to talk about the things at which our kids are above average!

Make sense?

At the same time, a couple other things come into play:
- Some people exaggerate online.
- Giftedness is over-diagnosed these days. Even our students who are downright incapable tend to be described by their parents as "smart but unmotivated" or "intelligent, but doesn't fit the academic mold". Sometimes it's quite clear to everyone else that these kids are middle-of-the-road average.
A genuinely gifted kid tends to be gifted in multiple areas, and USUALLY that comes with enhanced social skills. Kids who are gifted but have a learning disability in one area are incredibly rare; kids who are diagnosed in this way are PROBABLY strong-average students with good study habits and strong motivation who excel because of their hard work . . . but are somewhat stinted in one subject.

But I have known a few super-intelligent kids who were very withdrawn, but they're so few that I don't even see one every year at school. I'm thinking of one who was in my own graduating class. He was a nice boy but just didn't know how to talk to others. He was genuinely brilliant; in retrospect, I wonder if he didn't have some type of Autism. I don't know -- that was a long time ago, and I wasn't aware of such things then. And I'm thinking of a boy I taught years ago who was born to much-older parents after the tragic and violent death of his brother. Since he was the "replacement child", they did everything except keep him in a plastic bubble, and he was far from normal socially. But really, these don't-fit-in-socially gifted kids aren't typical.I've taught LOTS of kids who struggle in school, but it's obvious that they're going to be just fine once they're out in the world and can CHOOSE to avoid all things academic. These are the kids who are going to go on to be good citizens who will work hard at jobs that suit them, raise their families well, and be just fine in the world -- they just aren't academic. These are the kids I was describing above -- they're the ones who are extremely rare, and I see one every couple years. Giftedness is one measure, while accomplishment is a separate topic. A person can be quite gifted, yet never bother to do anything with those gifts. Or a person can be rather average, yet through hard work, accomplish quite a bit.

In my very unscientific opinion, most people's ability level and accomplishment levels are rather similar -- that is, people with more ability tend to accomplish more, but that's not a hard-and-fast-rule. No, it's not semantics. You're not "gifted" just because you're in the top 30% of your class. You're gifted because you're genuinely far, far beyond your same-aged peers -- and not because of hard work or enriched environment, but because of natural, God-given talent.

Need proof? Ask any teacher, and he or she will tell you that classes have personalities and ability levels. (By class, I mean the whole grade level, not Mrs. Smith's 4th grade.) My older child's graduating class is really, really strong academically. A higher-than-average number of kids is taking honors/AP classes, they're scoring well on the SAT, and there are other signs -- they are an outstanding group. My younger child's graduating class is much more average academically. So . . . the top 30% in my older child's class is higher-achieving than the top 30% in my younger child's class -- so how can 30% be gifted? Simple: They can't. My older child's class has a larger number of gifted students, but simply being at the top of your peer group doesn't equal giftedness.

Also, 30% is much too high a number for giftedness. 10% is too high a number for true giftedness. You're exactly right, but these terms have been used as synonyms for so many years that people THINK of them as the same thing. Most kids who are described as "gifted" these days are actually good students who are the products of an enriched environment. I don't see any signs that we have a larger number of gifted kids today . . . but we absolutely have a larger group of kids who come from very academically enriched homes. When I was a kid, most of us came from families of 3-6 kids. Our parents' time and money was divided out pretty thinly. We didn't have classes, workshops, travel opportunities -- but today many parents live to push their kids academically, and even those who don't use it as a recreational sport do more of it than the average parent did back when I was a child.

Of course, there are two other important points to this concept:
- I am also certain that the opposite is true: We have a group of parents who are utterly clueless about their children's education and who do absolutely nothing to prepare their kids for school or to support them through the process.
- I never knew anyone my age who "burned out" after high school or college, or who needed a "gap year" to recover from the rigours of education. We were never pushed as hard as some kids today, nor were we made to think that our entire self-worth was tied up in our academic performance. Possible, but exceedingly unlikely. Genuine giftedness DOES mean above average in multiple ways. A person who's "gifted" at one thing really isn't "gifted" at all -- he or she just has a talent for that one thing (or two things). That's not a put-down; it's just the correct use of the word "gifted". Yes, SOME kids of all ability levels make fun of those at different achievement levels. MOST do not because they know it's improper. True. In my classroom experience, A SMALL PERCENTAGE of the teasing that goes on deals with academics. If I had to pick the #1 thing about which kids are teased, it'd be physical characteristics: Clothing, weight, unusual things like a big nose or skinny legs or skin color. True, and that's federal law, so it's not a case of "it works this way here". Trust me, I spend a great deal of time dealing with IEPs. Those'd be 504s.

I agree with your diagnoses of the "gifted"

But my definition of average and your definition of average may differ. It really depends on what we as individuals see when looking outside the window

 

[punkin]

I agree with your diagnoses of the "gifted"

But my definition of average and your definition of average may differ. It really depends on what we as individuals see when looking outside the window

...and that's why you really can't know if your child is average or gifted without a battery of normative IQ tests.

 

[Liberty Belle]

I think a part of this is that people "self-select" the posts to which they'll respond. We tend to become involved in posts that involve our interests, and we tend to become good at the things that interest us.

So you'll see me respond to things concerning academics, arts and scouts 'cause that's what my kids do -- and they excel at them. You won't hear any responses from me on music or sports; my kids aren't into those things. Also, IF I had anything to say about music or sports, my kids'd be very average. Hearing that my kid sings in the chorus at church and is never going to have a solo just isn't interesting, and I'm not likely to spend time writing about it. We like to talk about the things at which our kids are above average!

Make sense?

At the same time, a couple other things come into play:
- Some people exaggerate online.
- Giftedness is over-diagnosed these days. Even our students who are downright incapable tend to be described by their parents as "smart but unmotivated" or "intelligent, but doesn't fit the academic mold". Sometimes it's quite clear to everyone else that these kids are middle-of-the-road average.
A genuinely gifted kid tends to be gifted in multiple areas, and USUALLY that comes with enhanced social skills. Kids who are gifted but have a learning disability in one area are incredibly rare; kids who are diagnosed in this way are PROBABLY strong-average students with good study habits and strong motivation who excel because of their hard work . . . but are somewhat stinted in one subject.

But I have known a few super-intelligent kids who were very withdrawn, but they're so few that I don't even see one every year at school. I'm thinking of one who was in my own graduating class. He was a nice boy but just didn't know how to talk to others. He was genuinely brilliant; in retrospect, I wonder if he didn't have some type of Autism. I don't know -- that was a long time ago, and I wasn't aware of such things then. And I'm thinking of a boy I taught years ago who was born to much-older parents after the tragic and violent death of his brother. Since he was the "replacement child", they did everything except keep him in a plastic bubble, and he was far from normal socially. But really, these don't-fit-in-socially gifted kids aren't typical.I've taught LOTS of kids who struggle in school, but it's obvious that they're going to be just fine once they're out in the world and can CHOOSE to avoid all things academic. These are the kids who are going to go on to be good citizens who will work hard at jobs that suit them, raise their families well, and be just fine in the world -- they just aren't academic. These are the kids I was describing above -- they're the ones who are extremely rare, and I see one every couple years. Giftedness is one measure, while accomplishment is a separate topic. A person can be quite gifted, yet never bother to do anything with those gifts. Or a person can be rather average, yet through hard work, accomplish quite a bit.

In my very unscientific opinion, most people's ability level and accomplishment levels are rather similar -- that is, people with more ability tend to accomplish more, but that's not a hard-and-fast-rule. No, it's not semantics. You're not "gifted" just because you're in the top 30% of your class. You're gifted because you're genuinely far, far beyond your same-aged peers -- and not because of hard work or enriched environment, but because of natural, God-given talent.

Need proof? Ask any teacher, and he or she will tell you that classes have personalities and ability levels. (By class, I mean the whole grade level, not Mrs. Smith's 4th grade.) My older child's graduating class is really, really strong academically. A higher-than-average number of kids is taking honors/AP classes, they're scoring well on the SAT, and there are other signs -- they are an outstanding group. My younger child's graduating class is much more average academically. So . . . the top 30% in my older child's class is higher-achieving than the top 30% in my younger child's class -- so how can 30% be gifted? Simple: They can't. My older child's class has a larger number of gifted students, but simply being at the top of your peer group doesn't equal giftedness.

Also, 30% is much too high a number for giftedness. 10% is too high a number for true giftedness. You're exactly right, but these terms have been used as synonyms for so many years that people THINK of them as the same thing. Most kids who are described as "gifted" these days are actually good students who are the products of an enriched environment. I don't see any signs that we have a larger number of gifted kids today . . . but we absolutely have a larger group of kids who come from very academically enriched homes. When I was a kid, most of us came from families of 3-6 kids. Our parents' time and money was divided out pretty thinly. We didn't have classes, workshops, travel opportunities -- but today many parents live to push their kids academically, and even those who don't use it as a recreational sport do more of it than the average parent did back when I was a child.

Of course, there are two other important points to this concept:
- I am also certain that the opposite is true: We have a group of parents who are utterly clueless about their children's education and who do absolutely nothing to prepare their kids for school or to support them through the process.
- I never knew anyone my age who "burned out" after high school or college, or who needed a "gap year" to recover from the rigours of education. We were never pushed as hard as some kids today, nor were we made to think that our entire self-worth was tied up in our academic performance. Possible, but exceedingly unlikely. Genuine giftedness DOES mean above average in multiple ways. A person who's "gifted" at one thing really isn't "gifted" at all -- he or she just has a talent for that one thing (or two things). That's not a put-down; it's just the correct use of the word "gifted". Yes, SOME kids of all ability levels make fun of those at different achievement levels. MOST do not because they know it's improper. True. In my classroom experience, A SMALL PERCENTAGE of the teasing that goes on deals with academics. If I had to pick the #1 thing about which kids are teased, it'd be physical characteristics: Clothing, weight, unusual things like a big nose or skinny legs or skin color. True, and that's federal law, so it's not a case of "it works this way here". Trust me, I spend a great deal of time dealing with IEPs. Those'd be 504s.

No, kids in our district have IEPs due to neurological and behavioral conditions. Many kids have IEPs under OHI (Other Health Impairment), which is what the kids with ADHD fall under. They can get the IEPs for that alone, without any learning disabilities.

 

[FINFAN]

According to school grades, one of my kids is as academically average as you can get...the other is the higher end of average. However, if this thread is about overall qualities of kids, of course mine are the BEST!