AP's to get 20 FP+ per quarter

[Robo]

Complicated, restrictive, inflexible, confusing. Based on what facts I know now, at least.

I am usually very "let's be positive" about Disney, but the idea of being able, or wanting, to always have to plan/control to this extent is totally crazy and not good to me.

It is actually the complete LOSS of guest "control" that is at the heart of what's being discussed here.

The control that guests have traditionally had was one of choices that could be made at the moment, at the parks, at their pleasure and mood.

Being about to DECIDE what to ride (and/or ride again) based on how their day was progressing.

If little Billy had finally decided, after tackling Barnstormer, he wanted to try Big Thunder or Space Mtn, for the first time.
No problem, grab a FP and have at it .

Deciding this a few weeks or months in advance...
I don't THINK so, Tim.

Conversely, the family made plans to use a precious FP+ choice to
ride Space Mtn. but little Billy decides that he WON'T be doing so,
after he walks 20 feet into the queue.

And, yes, it is complicated.
OUTSTANDINGLY, INTENSELY complicated.
Complicated well beyond anything that Disney has actually been able to keep track of (control of) in the past.
Spitting out a FP ticket is comparatively simple, and it is,
just by its nature, a guest-held hard copy of the "reservation."
Easy for guests and CM's to read the return time. Easy to prove that its a legit "reservation."

But what if something goes just a tiny bit awry?
We've talked about individual ride shut-downs and such causing
a rift in "reservation times" for FP+.
What about higher-in-the-chain computer glitches and failures.
The FP+ computer could lose dozens (or tens of thousands) of FP+ reservations (or access to them,) either for the afternoon, for the day, or scrambles them for an entire month... or quarter year.

There's more, but that's enough to consider for this post.

 

[Laketravis]

~I don't think Disney can ever charge a fee for fastpass.

Really? Never say "can't" - Disney could do anything they want to do.

Whether it's profitable, successful, or popular isn't proven until it's implemented.

They COULD at some point in time allow only one "experience" per attraction as part of general park admission and then charge extra for additional "experiences" if they wanted to. It all depends on what their true motivations are and why they feel they need to change anything.

Is it for profit? Is if for guest satisfaction? Is it to grow attendance numbers? Is it to maximize ROI on every attraction? Although we can all guess, we don't know for a fact what the true motivation is other than what's publicly announced. And that always contains spin.

Read up on yield management to get an idea of the why's and how's. I think MouseMerf articulated very well some of the logical business reasons for FP+ in earlier posts.

 

[Bonniec]

Robo, I agree with all of that.

The FP system is the only thing that keeps us going back to Disney and why we have the PAPs. I like the current system. It's free and we can decide on a whim what we want to do. With a child who has stomach issues, we need that freedom. If he starts feeling bad or gets scared of a ride, no big deal, we just lose our FP. I'll never be a commando planner....but maybe that's because we live here too.

I hope they announce things before our renewal in March.


ETA: And yes, they could charge for FP if they wanted to, just like Universal does. But I would stop going if they did because it would just be too expensive. We pretty much don't ride anything without a fast pass. We are upgrading our Universal passes to their premium just so we can have the after 4:00pm express passes. But Disney already costs so much more than anywhere else. I consider their fast pass fees to be built into the price. If they actually added on a cost, it would hit my breaking point. But still....I'm sure plenty would pay it. The parks are thriving.

 

[larryz]

ETA: And yes, they could charge for FP if they wanted to, just like Universal does. But I would stop going if they did because it would just be too expensive. We pretty much don't ride anything without a fast pass. We are upgrading our Universal passes to their premium just so we can have the after 4:00pm express passes. But Disney already costs so much more than anywhere else. I consider their fast pass fees to be built into the price. If they actually added on a cost, it would hit my breaking point. But still....I'm sure plenty would pay it. The parks are thriving.

Look at it this way -- they already have a "premium FP system" -- VIP Tour Guides. You see the price point for that...

There's a vast, untapped market between the VIP experience and the free FP. The beauty of the RFID method -- unless you're stalking a FP+ user, you have no way of knowing whether it's the free 4 FP+ per day they're using, or the additional FP+'s they get for being a concierge guest (if offered), or paying a bit extra (should WDW decide to do so)... Imagine, if you will, that Premier and Platinum DDP guests might get unlimited FP+ per day while those who aren't willing to invest that much into their vacations might be stuck with only 4 or so...

 

[bauer1168]

It is actually the complete LOSS of guest "control" that is at the heart of what's being discussed here.

The control that guests have traditionally had was one of choices that could be made at the moment, at the parks, at their pleasure and mood.

Being about to DECIDE what to ride (and/or ride again) based on how their day was progressing.

If little Billy had finally decided, after tackling Barnstormer, he wanted to try Big Thunder or Space Mtn, for the first time.
No problem, grab a FP and have at it .

Deciding this a few weeks or months in advance...
I don't THINK so, Tim.

Conversely, the family made plans to use a precious FP+ choice to
ride Space Mtn. but little Billy decides that he WON'T be doing so,
after he walks 20 feet into the queue.

And, yes, it is complicated.
OUTSTANDINGLY, INTENSELY complicated.
Complicated well beyond anything that Disney has actually been able to keep track of (control of) in the past.
Spitting out a FP ticket is comparatively simple, and it is,
just by its nature, a guest-held hard copy of the "reservation."
Easy for guests and CM's to read the return time. Easy to prove that its a legit "reservation."

But what if something goes just a tiny bit awry?
We've talked about individual ride shut-downs and such causing
a rift in "reservation times" for FP+.
What about higher-in-the-chain computer glitches and failures.
The FP+ computer could lose dozens (or tens of thousands) of FP+ reservations (or access to them,) either for the afternoon, for the day, or scrambles them for an entire month... or quarter year.

There's more, but that's enough to consider for this post.

Excellent points as always Robo!
Guests can make reservations at resorts/hotels and have paperwork in their hand, and when they go to the front desk to check in, the person behind the desk can look at the computer and something completely different comes up. I had it on my recent visit. 4 night stay at Contemporary and their computer said it was for 9 nights. I wish I could have stayed there that long.
Any complications at the RFID turnstile could, potentially,hold up the rest of the FP line. Making further waits for everyone.
From the info so far, it does seem slightly complicated (for me anyways), the average guest who, has no idea about regular FP could be blown away by FP+.
Sorry for sounding like Captain Negative regarding FP+, but with losing an hour of evening EMH come January, and the reduction to 10% for PAP holders, what's to say their MAY be a cut further down the line of how many FP+ slots you get, or, 1 FP+ for a top tier and 3 for the lower attractions. All simply speculation on my behalf. I do hope that once it fully rolls out it'll be a success and ill be eating my words.

 

[bcrook]

To be honest, the old way of doing it was that if you had enough money you could ride Space Mountain as many times as you wanted. Some of my fondest memories of going to WDW as a child in the 70's is the family sitting around debating where to use those precious few tickets (Dad would't buy any extra ones, much to our dismay).

If you look at old ticket books that come up for sale now and then, they almost always have the A and B tickets still in them. Sometimes they have the C tickets. But they seldom have the D and E tickets, because those are the attractions people wanted to visit. I would guess they had a pretty good business in selling extra E tickets at the in park ticket booths as well. Since you could buy the admission and transportation tickets separate from the attraction tickets, someone could feasibly have gone in the park and done nothing but E ticket attractions all day, if that's how they wanted to spend their money.

So the mind set hasn't really changed from where it was 40 years ago. Just because they are trying to get people to spread out in the park doesn't mean they will.

I don't really have a dog in this fight because I seldom use FP now. I stay on property a minimum of 40 nights per year, and the last FP I pulled was in 2010 (that might have been the first one as well - I don't remember any others). I think we should all just take a deep breath and wait and see what happens when the final version goes live. If they are testing now, they will tweek the system based on the data provided by the tests - so it may or may not be exactly the same as it was during testing mode. There is a lot that is just speculation and rumor at this point, and since even the few alleged facts could be changed before the official rollout, there's just no point in getting stressed out yet.

I wouldn't say people are stressed out, I think most people are trying to make sense of the situation.

Some people plan their trips two years in advance. They save up their money. They have to start deciding what type of ticket to buy and how much their willing to spend on accommodations. On site offsite? I use vacation clubs and have to plan my trips out over a year in advance, if I borrow points from another year - I have to plan 18 months or more. So just waiting around for Disney to explain all this to me is not really working. I have a pretty good idea what's going on now.

I still need to know how it works for DVC, and now I need to know if I am going to get a limited number of e tickets a day and then be offered to buy more. I am with bonniec on this one - no way.

I am booked for a June trip with my parents, and I am bringing 12 people with me October for food and wine. In June we are staying at AKV, we are considering three types of ticket investments:

1. Only buy universal pass. No Disney.
2. Buy two AP, but this thread doesn't encourage that. I have to make this decision this week, because of a DVC price special.
3. Buy two no expiration 10 day passes. Outrageous.

I can't decide because Disney isn't ready to unveil. That doesn't stress me out, but it is inconvenient. Right now, I am going with option 1 for June. New fantasyland will have to wait until October for me.

No stress, just need more information to spend my thousands of dollars wisely.

 

[OurDogCisco]

I can see the new ticketing options now:

FP+ with hopper options
FP+ with unlimited FP+/one park per day
FP+ with unilimited FP+ at any park per day
FP+ to reserve your bathroom stall... LOL...

This is crazy.

I will definitely miss the return any time you want with FP on our next trip. However, I could never figure out why that part was bad. We travel mostly peak season (think Christmas, Thanksgiving, Summer, etc) and never once with FP were the lines backup because people returned late with their FP.

I still say the uneducated FP users will be those uneducated FP+ and will still complain the system is unfair. While us educated FP+ users will maximize the system. I don't think that will change as it is human nature.

 

[DebbieB]

Really? I am so shocked! I cant believe that was cheaper than buying a DDP! No wonder they removed it for value resorts!

Typically during free dining. If you have 2 adults and 2 kids 10 or older, that's 4 adults. The dining plan could have been worth $45 per person, so $180. Rack rate for the room was around $100. Some DVC members did it too even though they were staying onsite.

 

[mousermerf]

Wow people used to do that? Would they still be saving money doing that?

More commonly they'd get a campsite at Ft Wilderness. Also gets them into EMH.

 

[mousermerf]

I can see the new ticketing options now:

FP+ with hopper options
FP+ with unlimited FP+/one park per day
FP+ with unilimited FP+ at any park per day
FP+ to reserve your bathroom stall... LOL...

This is crazy.

I will definitely miss the return any time you want with FP on our next trip. However, I could never figure out why that part was bad. We travel mostly peak season (think Christmas, Thanksgiving, Summer, etc) and never once with FP were the lines backup because people returned late with their FP.

I still say the uneducated FP users will be those uneducated FP+ and will still complain the system is unfair. While us educated FP+ users will maximize the system. I don't think that will change as it is human nature.

The system had a limit on the number of FP's given out that included the test numbers with late returns. Removing the allowance for late returns allows for more FP distribution.. without the lines going outside the buildings.

 

[mousermerf]

Getting worried about the computer system losing FP+ reservations is creating a ridiculous scenario. The whole hotel reservations system could do that, the dining system could do that, the entire passholder ticketing system could do that.

"Never use technology! It could break!"

Don't be ridiculous. There will probably be downtimes the same way there's occasional downtimes of reservations, dining, ticketing, etc... The parks react to this by switching to the honor system. The vast majority of park guests wont decide they're going to abuse a downtime. The CMs just admit anyone who claims to have a valid FP+ for the time period. The same way the front gate admits guests without scanning their tickets, dining seats parties without the reservation system, and the hotels take down information and manually assign keycards.

Massive data loss for multiple days that cant be recovered from wont happen. Disney's systems back themselves up constantly.

 

[Robo]

Don't be ridiculous.

Sorry.
I lost my head.

Don't worry.
Nothing can go wrong.

 

[Suellen]

We will just have to plan better I guess. Learn even more as a guest about the ebb and flow of lines.

You can have fun without waiting in lines... you just need the know how. There will always be "superusers" of the line system ~ even if there are no FP's.

We got to DHS last night at about 5:30-6:00 (don't remember exactly) we rode:

Rock n Roller Coaster
Toy Story Mania
Star Tours

Had dinner at Sci Fi at 8:10 and were home by 9:30. Two days before Christmas. Right place, right time.

Worst part was finding parking.

 

[mbrittb00]

~This is such a great post! Anyway, I totally agree that DDP is no longer a value. I have done the math, but I love the convenience of having all meals paid in advanced, it feels like an all inclusive vacation, and there is no sticker shock when you check out.

~Unfortunately, the gratuity was removed due to customer demand. Several, posters and guests complained to Disney about "undeserving" servers getting tips. I didn't get it, either. But, I was really sad when Disney stop paying the gratuity. It was a huge loss for the guests that tip and tip well.

~Okay, with FP+, try to look at it this way. First and foremost, I mostly perceive this as a necessary technological upgrade. I feel confident in saying that Disney categorizes Fastpass as an essential working component of the parks overall operating infrastructure. The technology has changed drastically over the past 14 years.

~Let's look at the technology -- in 1999 Intel releases 366 and 400 MHz Celeron processors, priced at US$123 and US$158 each. This was the state of the art technology. The first Apple ibook was released later that year utilizing the same specs.

~Fast forward to today -- our cell phones are rocking 32GB and can do just as much as a computer, in some aspects more! This is where we are today. I'm positive that this technological breakthrough has impacted your life at home and at work. Has your office gone wireless and paperless, yet? The transition is not easy, it's a real pain. But, now I love it! So, why does Disney have to function with dated obsolete technology, when we have adapted to the rest of the world around us?

~Remember, it wasn't too long ago when we all had to update our televisions! The government issued vouchers for people to update the televisions, that was drastic, but we have all adapted since then.

~What I value the most about FP+, is my time. It sux to have to run all the way over from Tomorrowland to Frontierland just to pull a FP. Okay, I have my FP for Space Mountain, but my return window is open for Splash Mountain is about to expire, so I have to race back over to Frontierland, it's not exactly across the street.

~Now, I can spend time touring a land in it's entirety, without running from here to there just for FP's. FP+ will afford me the freedom to tour the way I've dreamed of. I would rather wait a few more minutes in line than criss cross the parks just to collect FP's. Right now, regular fastpass controls my vacation. My park touring style is compromised by the return window on my fastpass and the time I can pull another fastpass, etc.

~Honestly, it's okay to be skeptical, but I think you are going to be delightfully surprised with the flexibility and freedom that FP+ can deliver.

But it is possible to change the technology without changing the process. I for one welcome the technology change, just not the process.

On a typical day we get 7 or 8 sets of FPs, mostly if not entirely for the headliners. FP+ would reduce those FPs from 2 (or 3) for a particular ride that we really like, to one. We'll still get a 2nd ride in as we will still get there at RD. I understand that what Disney is going for is trying to prevent people like us from doing what we do, so as to open up more FP slots for other guests. But in doing so, could have the side effect of reducing our enjoyment of the parks.

Don't get me wrong we are Disney regulars. But due to our family size it is very difficult for us to stay onsite. (For a reasonable price). We tried staying in the value resorts the last couple of days of our last trip, and it was, well, awful. Part of it comes from us being accustom to staying at Windsor Hills, but the rooms were cramped and dirty/musty. And to make matters worse, my son and wife's allergies went into overdrive for those couple of days. All in all not a pleasant stay.

Regardless, we will be going back, the question, however if this new system forces me to stay onsite in order to prevent getting the FP "scraps", of if our enjoyment is severely reduced (by preventing us from doing our favorites multiple times) then it is highly likely that the frequency of our visits will reduce. Maybe Disney is banking that the new system will draw in more people (that would have otherwise not gone or gone less frequently) to offset those of us who chose to go less often.

Something else I've been thinking about. To those who say that this will be more complicated and that people already had a hard time understanding the current FP system and this will be worse. I have to disagree. Other than having so select which parks which day, this will be ideal for the non-planners, as it will essentially plan their day for them.

 

[mbrittb00]

Can you specify what you mean about "loopholes" in the DDP? It always seemed pretty cut and dry to me.

I can understand the RFID thing on the mugs. They would be easy to abuse.

If Disney was not happy with the late FP use, then maybe they should have instructed the CMs better. From what I understand, CMs routinely told people it was OK to come back late. The time on the FP didn't seem to be a hard and fast rule, even to the people that WORK there, so I don't see how late usage can be deemed "abuse." If they want to enforce FP return times, that's fine, but I can't think that's the reason behind going to FP+.

It'll be interesting to see what the final iteration of FP+ looks like and if it actually makes them any money. Based on what I've seen so far, I don't think it will make most guests very happy, but I'll reserve further speculation until the final word comes out.

The only loophole I can think of is making multiple reservations, many of which you won't use, so that you have options.

Also, it was actually Official Disney policy to accept FPs late.

 

[OurDogCisco]

Getting worried about the computer system losing FP+ reservations is creating a ridiculous scenario. The whole hotel reservations system could do that, the dining system could do that, the entire passholder ticketing system could do that.

"Never use technology! It could break!"

Don't be ridiculous. There will probably be downtimes the same way there's occasional downtimes of reservations, dining, ticketing, etc... The parks react to this by switching to the honor system. The vast majority of park guests wont decide they're going to abuse a downtime. The CMs just admit anyone who claims to have a valid FP+ for the time period. The same way the front gate admits guests without scanning their tickets, dining seats parties without the reservation system, and the hotels take down information and manually assign keycards.

Massive data loss for multiple days that cant be recovered from wont happen. Disney's systems back themselves up constantly.

I agree with you except I know on the dining you don't get in because you had a reservation. Back in the day before online dining reservations and e-mail confirmations, I made a reservation for our last day at California Grill which was New Year's Day. We showed up and our confirmation was actually for the two days later 1/3. I told them how would that be possible as I made the reservations at 180 days plus 10 and I was leaving on the 2nd. So, how would the system let the CM made the reservation if I wasn't a resort guest, etc... They told me it was my fault since I did not get a printout of ADRs from the front desk which I didn't know was an option at the time. We were out of luck and had to eat quick service that evening...

 

[mousermerf]

I agree with you except I know on the dining you don't get in because you had a reservation. Back in the day before online dining reservations and e-mail confirmations, I made a reservation for our last day at California Grill which was New Year's Day. We showed up and our confirmation was actually for the two days later 1/3. I told them how would that be possible as I made the reservations at 180 days plus 10 and I was leaving on the 2nd. So, how would the system let the CM made the reservation if I wasn't a resort guest, etc... They told me it was my fault since I did not get a printout of ADRs from the front desk which I didn't know was an option at the time. We were out of luck and had to eat quick service that evening...

That's not the same as a system outage where they can't see or confirm anything. Your reservation was booked wrong.

And the dining CMs can book anything during the 180 +10 window for anyone - they're just not supposed to.

 

[OurDogCisco]

Something else I've been thinking about. To those who say that this will be more complicated and that people already had a hard time understanding the current FP system and this will be worse. I have to disagree. Other than having so select which parks which day, this will be ideal for the non-planners, as it will essentially plan their day for them.

I disagree... I own several timeshares and a vacation home and people never book a year out or even 6 months out for the their vacations. I get about 90% of rentals 3 to 4 months to check-in. I use to freak out all the time that I wasn't going to break even as nobody was looking to rent. Never the case... always had renters but more at the last minute in my book. I always plan in advance because I'm a planner. It is the non-planners that don't like the old FP and want change. But they aren't going to all of the sudden figure what park to go to on what day 6 months in advance.

 

[Rosanne]

Sorry.
I lost my head.

Don't worry.
Nothing can go wrong.

I admire your grace and tongue in cheek humor.

 

[mbrittb00]

I disagree... I own several timeshares and a vacation home and people never book a year out or even 6 months out for the their vacations. I get about 90% of rentals 3 to 4 months to check-in. I use to freak out all the time that I wasn't going to break even as nobody was looking to rent. Never the case... always had renters but more at the last minute in my book. I always plan in advance because I'm a planner. It is the non-planners that don't like the old FP and want change. But they aren't going to all of the sudden figure what park to go to on what day 6 months in advance.

I agree that 6 months in advance is WAY to far. But consider if it was actually only 4 or 6 weeks? For people who don't like planning having Disney plan their day for the would be gold.