Apparently I dislike FP+...alot

[Planogirl]

I just read a post from someone who was just back from vacation. Overall the poster had an excellent time, but they did notice increased waits for secondary attractions that used to be walk-ons.
http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3346781

I just don't see how people can say this isn't true. With Legacy, I used FP's for the top tier attractions and then rode secondary attractions with little or no wait. With FP+, people are booking FP+ for the secondary attractions once the E ticket reservations are taken. IMO, this is going to increase my overall wait time. FP+ will not reduce my wait time when I compare it to legacy, but it will increase my wait time on secondary attractions.
The poster I cited above, reserved a FP for the Muppets! I am amazed that Disney has put FP+ on A-ticket attractions!
Maybe, Disney should return to ticket books for crowd management. It might be more logical then their current system.

Simple logic would make someone think that secondary attraction lines would be longer. If Disney has succeeded in getting people out the headliner attractions lines because they have fastpasses then those same people have to go somewhere. I would bet that most people go to the parks to ride things or see shows. If they don't have to wait in one place then they will just enter another line.

Actually I would prefer ticket books to this. Ticket books allowed for more flexibility.

 

[ParkHoppers]

Seems like Disney wants as many people as possible to use FP+. It is now known that a lot more people are using the new system as opposed to the old legacy system. The only way to have enough FP for everyone was that Disney needed to give out FP for ALL the rides. Not just the headliners. It is just simple math IMO. So if a lot more people are being directed to the non headliners the math alone would tell us that the lines would be longer for those rides. More people = longer lines. Again it is just MATH plain and simple. Disney wanted to spread people out throughout the parks so everyone isn,t trying to cram into only the headliners. IMO they have accomplished just that. Which is what they wanted. I will also say that I for one would not tie a successful vacation to the fact that I basically didn't have to wait in any lines. We are talking about the most popular theme parks in the world here. I find not waiting in any lines an unrealistic expectation and wouldn't set up my vacation for failure like that. Vacation to me is about a lot more than just rides and how long I have to wait to get on them. But that is just me.

 

[Luckybee]

I can only speak to the days we were at Disney and of course this is anecdotal but without any doubt the days we were at the parks the standby lines were most definitely longer for secondary rides. We did not imagine a 45 min wait sign for Small World. We did not imagine the same for POTC. The funny part about that was there was no one at all in the fp line when we went through fp and I mean 0 people. Other fp's were similar. Don't get me wrong I loved that but I don't think fp was intended as a ride of your very own
Perhaps when D gets its' ---- together and actually figures out the appropriate numbers for fp distribution maybe the lines will work out

 

[surferdave]

TP could, under the old system, shave off a bunch of wait time. BUT if Disney is tweaking the system to level wait times out regardless of attractions...with all attractions (which seems to be the case) ... no amount of TP will help. Disney has eliminated the wiggle room.

That's what they're trying to do, but instead of leveling things out they've made them wildly variable. I mean more of Disney's efforts than just FP+/MDE; their international and domestic marketing and discounts have made most crowd level prediction more of a crap shoot as well.

 

[Luckybee]

Simple logic would make someone think that secondary attraction lines would be longer. If Disney has succeeded in getting people out the headliner attractions lines because they have fastpasses then those same people have to go somewhere. I would bet that most people go to the parks to ride things or see shows. If they don't have to wait in one place then they will just enter another line.

Actually I would prefer ticket books to this. Ticket books allowed for more flexibility.

No question...ticket books would be far better. People could then choose what they wanted, if they wanted more they could buy them. They could also sell fp per attraction and onsiters could be given extra's. But after D spending as much as they did on mde I somehow don't see them going in that direction....although it could probably be incorporated into the app.

 

[Rebekkap]

I can only speak to the days we were at Disney and of course this is anecdotal but without any doubt the days we were at the parks the standby lines were most definitely longer for secondary rides. We did not imagine a 45 min wait sign for Small World. We did not imagine the same for POTC. The funny part about that was there was no one at all in the fp line when we went through fp and I mean 0 people. Other fp's were similar. Don't get me wrong I loved that but I don't think fp was intended as a ride of your very own
Perhaps when D gets its' ---- together and actually figures out the appropriate numbers for fp distribution maybe the lines will work out

Yes, but did you actually stand in those supposedly 45 minute lines? I was there in late April, and found that the lines at the secondary rides were MUCH shorter than the wait times suggested. Where previously they would post a five or ten minute wait time for what was essentially a walk on, they seemed to be posting a 25 minute wait for what was essentially a walk on. I think it's to encourage people to use FP+ on those attractions.

I had one day in MK where I got 11 FP+ - including four for space mountain. I was very pleasantly surprised by the new system because I had been dreading it, having been a power user of the old FP.

 

[Minniesgal]

What I am struggling to understand is that if park attendance hasn't increased dramatically since FP+ and ride capacity hasn't been reduced how it can be possible to create a system where people are having to wait longer in line. Add to that the fact most people are complaining about getting less even significantly less FPs than before and to me something isn't adding up.

 

[Luckybee]

Yes, but did you actually stand in those supposedly 45 minute lines? I was there in late April, and found that the lines at the secondary rides were MUCH shorter than the wait times suggested. Where previously they would post a five or ten minute wait time for what was essentially a walk on, they seemed to be posting a 25 minute wait for what was essentially a walk on. I think it's to encourage people to use FP+ on those attractions.

I had one day in MK where I got 11 FP+ - including four for space mountain. I was very pleasantly surprised by the new system because I had been dreading it, having been a power user of the old FP.

The line for potc was really really long so I think the wait may have been accurate. We didn't have to since we had fp. with absolutely no one else in the fp line...it was weird.
There was no way I was waiting for SW anywhere near 45 min. 4-5 maybe. If we had nothing else to do. And it is a ride I actually don't mind. We did it another day so I have no idea if it was accurate.

 

[wisblue]

What I am struggling to understand is that if park attendance hasn't increased dramatically since FP+ and ride capacity hasn't been reduced how it can be possible to create a system where people are having to wait longer in line. Add to that the fact most people are complaining about getting less even significantly less FPs than before and to me something isn't adding up.

The theory (which makes sense) is that a small group of guests used the paper FP system to get multiple rides on popular attractions. The FP+ system only gives everyone 3 FP in advance and they all have to be on different rides. So, guests who may have been getting multiple FPs for one ride are shifted to something else. And, some of those rides, like POC, didn't have FPs at all before so more guests may be choosing to ride them.The net result is that standby lines are longer on some rides, and shorter on others, like the mountains. The crowd has effectively been redistributed to spread guests more evenly.

I also think from observation on our many holiday visits that larger crowds send wait times up more on a percentage basis on the intermediate rides than on more popular ones. The first wave of a crowd might drive waits on the most popular rides up first, while lines at things like POC and IASW remain low. But once lines at the mountains get to an hour or more, more guests skip those and go to the secondary attractions. For example, the line at Thunder Mountain may be as long as an hour while POC is still just 10 minutes. But as the crowd grows, the line at POC will go to 30 minutes a lot faster than BTMRR goes to 2 hours (which it almost never does).

The increase in posted wait times at some attractions is likely a result of both the implementation of FP+ and higher crowds at what used to be slow times! a result of more effective Gianey promotions. But, there are clearly different opinions on what those percentages are. Some people think that FP+ is the only factor and that larger crowds don't affect those wait times at all.

 

[Suvadoo]

What I am struggling to understand is that if park attendance hasn't increased dramatically since FP+ and ride capacity hasn't been reduced how it can be possible to create a system where people are having to wait longer in line. Add to that the fact most people are complaining about getting less even significantly less FPs than before and to me something isn't adding up.

Judging from what touring plans is posting, the crowds have increased. Also, the headliner attraction FP+ waits are the less or the same as with Legacy FP. Now the secondary rides, that never had legacy FP, have longer SB waits. For example Figment was a walk-on attraction, now it has a 15 minute wait. FP+ has shunted people to secondary attractions and created waits where there never were any.
I think people are doing their FP+ attractions and then if nothing else they
want to ride is available for FP+ they leave the parks rather than waiting in lines for mediocre attractions.

I wonder how long guests are going to think WDW is a worthwhile vacation. There are 2 people on my vacation. Before FP+ we bought 4 day theme park tickets. If I take the total single ticket amount and divide it by the number of attractions and shows I was able to see at WDW per day (lets say10) that's around $7 per attraction. If FP+ only allows me to ride 3-4 attractions without a long wait, then the cost of each attraction increases to $19.

I know for AP's it's less expensive. But overall, a WDW vacation is very expensive for me: airfare, rental car, hotel, and dining. If my access to attractions/ shows is greatly diminished, then I will not be returning. I'm using me as an example, but I think a lot of guests would reach the same conclusion. If we as consumers, no longer see a WDW vacation as value for our money, we will go elsewhere.

 

[wisblue]

Judging from what touring plans is posting, the crowds have increased. Also, the headliner attraction FP+ waits are the less or the same as with Legacy FP. Now the secondary rides, that never had legacy FP, have longer SB waits.For example Figment was a walk-on attraction, now it has a 15 minute wait. FP+ has shunted people to secondary attractions and created waits where there never were any.
I think people are doing their FP+ attractions and then if nothing else they
want to ride is available for FP+ they leave the parks rather than waiting in lines for mediocre attractions.


I wonder how long guests are going to think WDW is a worthwhile vacation. There are 2 people on my vacation. Before FP+ we bought 4 day theme park tickets. If I take the total single ticket amount and divide it by the number of attractions and shows I was able to see at WDW per day (lets say10) that's around $7 per attraction. If FP+ only allows me to ride 3-4 attractions without a long wait, then the cost of each attraction increases to $19.

I know for AP's it's less expensive. But overall, a WDW vacation is very expensive for me: airfare, rental car, hotel, and dining. If my access to attractions/ shows is greatly diminished, then I will not be returning. I'm using me as an example, but I think a lot of guests would reach the same conclusion. If we as consumers, no longer see a WDW vacation as value for our money, we will go elsewhere.

I want to address the two highlighted things in your post.

Putting aside for a moment the impact of higher overall park crowds on wait times at secondary attractions (which I addressed in my previous post), if you get 3 FPs in advance or right after you enter the park, and can only do 3-4 attractions without a long wait, you win the award for being the most inefficient park tourer possible. It is well known that anyone arriving at or shortly after rope drop can do several things with a short wait without using any of those FPs. Anyone who is this inefficient probably hated WDW even with paper FP because they didn't take advantage of that either.

Second, the comment about FP+ creating waits where there never were any, is hyperbole at its finest. There are very few secondary attractions at WDW that never had waits. The ones that are most often mentioned in these threads are POC, HM, JC, and IASW. Anyone who has visited at the holidays knows that lines of 30 minutes or more at these attractions were common from late morning and through the afternoon.

There are many, many posters (and I think you are one of them) saying how crowds have been much larger at what used to be quiet times. To me, it stands to reason that as crowds get larger, the line patterns that have always occurred at the holidays will start to be repeated at those traditionally less busy times, even if on a less grand scale. If lines at these attractions are now longer than they used to be at the same time of the year, at least some of that has to be attributable to higher overall crowds and not just to FP+.

 

[Suvadoo]

I want to address the two highlighted things in your post.

Putting aside for a moment the impact of higher overall park crowds on wait times at secondary attractions (which I addressed in my previous post), if you get 3 FPs in advance or right after you enter the park, and can only do 3-4 attractions without a long wait, you win the award for being the most inefficient park tourer possible. It is well known that anyone arriving at or shortly after rope drop can do several things with a short wait without using any of those FPs. Anyone who is this inefficient probably hated WDW even with paper FP because they didn't take advantage of that either.

Second, the comment about FP+ creating waits where there never were any, is hyperbole at its finest. There are very few secondary attractions at WDW that never had waits. The ones that are most often mentioned in these threads are POC, HM, JC, and IASW. Anyone who has visited at the holidays knows that lines of 30 minutes or more at these attractions were common from late morning and through the afternoon.

There are many, many posters (and I think you are one of them) saying how crowds have been much larger at what used to be quiet times. To me, it stands to reason that as crowds get larger, the line patterns that have always occurred at the holidays will start to be repeated at those traditionally less busy times, even if on a less grand scale. If lines at these attractions are now longer than they used to be at the same time of the year, at least some of that has to be attributable to higher overall crowds and not just to FP+.

You choose to be incredibly selective in your arguments about what I'm saying. In the first section you take exception to my saying FP+ created waits to secondary attractions. I used the example of Figment. Can you tell me when Figment had a wait, except during the holidays? I get tired of this dismissive use of the word "hyperbole" I provided a very concrete example.

There have been posters on the boards who have said that once they used there FP's for the day, there was nothing else available (that they were interested in doing) at the kiosks, so they left. So 3-4 rides and then gone. One person yesterday said they did Universal during the day and then returned to WDW at night to do the 3 FP attractions.

In my past visits, I have been able to go on at least 10 rides per day (prior to FP+). I don't think this can be characterized as inefficient touring.

But regardless of what you say, there are people on the boards who are beginning to question the value of a WDW vacation, and these people are Disney's biggest fans.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Second, the comment about FP+ creating waits where there never were any, is hyperbole at its finest. There are very few secondary attractions at WDW that never had waits. The ones that are most often mentioned in these threads are POC, HM, JC, and IASW. Anyone who has visited at the holidays knows that lines of 30 minutes or more at these attractions were common from late morning and through the afternoon.

I think when a lot of people are talking about there "never being waits" - they are referring to when *they* have visited and experienced the parks. So if they do not go to WDW during the crazy busy holidays, then there statement of "[insert ride here] never had a wait" isn't automatically hyperbole. It's their experience, which would definitely be different than those who travel over the holidays.

Personally, I have never seen a wait for Figment. We have always walked right on to the ride. So *if* we see a wait when we go to Epcot next week, I will be one saying "wow, I have never seen a wait for Figment before" - and it won't be hyperbole. We avoid holidays like Christmas intentionally as much as possible. I totally understand that those who visit during those times have a much different experience than those who don't. But that doesn't change my experience of never seeing a wait either.

 

[Disneylover99]

Any reduction in the headliner lines is meaningless to me. I wasn't going to wait 90 minutes, and I'm not going to wait 60 minutes.

Exactly!

Wait times for secondary attractions were up. Wait times for headliner attractions were down. That was my experience of 18 days in DW this past August. And we go every August, so that's what I am comparing this to. I also did not find it to be any more crowded then past years. Infact, many days, we thought it was actually less crowded then past years.

 

[Suvadoo]

I think when a lot of people are talking about there "never being waits" - they are referring to when *they* have visited and experienced the parks. So if they do not go to WDW during the crazy busy holidays, then there statement of "[insert ride here] never had a wait" isn't automatically hyperbole. It's their experience, which would definitely be different than those who travel over the holidays.

Personally, I have never seen a wait for Figment. We have always walked right on to the ride. So *if* we see a wait when we go to Epcot next week, I will be one saying "wow, I have never seen a wait for Figment before" - and it won't be hyperbole. We avoid holidays like Christmas intentionally as much as possible. I totally understand that those who visit during those times have a much different experience than those who don't. But that doesn't change my experience of never seeing a wait either.

According to Touring plans, Figment's wait at opening is 5 minutes and then after 11 am it's predicted to be 9 minutes throughout the day. I believe today would qualify as a slow time. So a 9 minute wait may not seem like much, but when you combine this wait with waits for other attractions and it adds up.

I'm really looking forward to your report, Angel. I hope you experience no waits! Just an aside: Do you think the word hyperbole is over used in these posts, or is it just me?

 

[smitch425]

I haven't read either article because, quite frankly, none of it really matters to me. No amount of data will have any impact on the real time experience. Way too many variables to really predict what will happen at any given moment. I can say that every posted wait time we experienced was very exaggerated. Posted times of 15 minutes were literally walk on in most cases (Figment, Journey Under the Sea). In most cases, the actual wait time was dependent on how quickly you could walk from the queue entrance to the seat. This was the case for almost everything at EPCOT, and many things at MK. Star Tours routinely had a wait time of 10-15 minutes, but was 5 or less in reality.

 

[Laketravis]

But regardless of what you say, there are people on the boards who are beginning to question the value of a WDW vacation, and these people are Disney's biggest fans.

Let's also not forget that from most peoples perspective (sorry I don't have EXACT figures but work with me on this one), they are being forced to make 3 choices when they reserve their FP's. So Captain EO or Spaceship Earth or Figment could be seeing guests who normally wouldn't even head in that direction, resulting in a wait in the SB line when there previously wasn't one. Somewhat forced participation, if you will.

In regards to biggest fans questioning value, I have to admit we are moving in that direction. Last night we booked the week after Christmas at US and bought annual passes. We'll spend a couple of weeks at WDW over Thanksgiving this month, and then next month we'll spend a week at US over New Year's to compare - giving a slight edge in the comparison to WDW, I believe, because we'll be comparing NYE at US to Thanksgiving at WDW.

 

[Suvadoo]

Exactly!

Wait times for secondary attractions were up. Wait times for headliner attractions were down. That was my experience of 18 days in DW this past August. And we go every August, so that's what I am comparing this to. I also did not find it to be any more crowded then past years. Infact, many days, we thought it was actually less crowded then past years.

So, from your personal experience when you visited in August, the crowds were about the same or less than on previous visits at the same time? Also, the wait times for secondary attractions was up, but headliners were down. Did you think you spent more time, less time, or about the same amount of time in lines as compared to previous visits?

 

[Laketravis]

Exactly!

Wait times for secondary attractions were up. Wait times for headliner attractions were down. That was my experience of 18 days in DW this past August. And we go every August, so that's what I am comparing this to. I also did not find it to be any more crowded then past years. Infact, many days, we thought it was actually less crowded then past years.

This is obviously pure hyperbole at it's finest

 

[Suvadoo]

Let's also not forget that from most peoples perspective (sorry I don't have EXACT figures but work with me on this one), they are being forced to make 3 choices when they reserve their FP's. So Captain EO or Spaceship Earth or Figment could be seeing guests who normally wouldn't even head in that direction, resulting in a wait in the SB line when there previously wasn't one. Somewhat forced participation, if you will.

In regards to biggest fans questioning value, I have to admit we are moving in that direction. Last night we booked the week after Christmas at US and bought annual passes. We'll spend a couple of weeks at WDW over Thanksgiving this month, and then next month we'll spend a week at US over New Year's to compare - giving a slight edge in the comparison to WDW, I believe, because we'll be comparing NYE at US to Thanksgiving at WDW.

Wholeheartedly agree with the forced participation thing. I love Spaceship Earth, but that doesn't mean I'd us a FP on it. If it's not a walk-on, it's a walk by for us.

Yeah, the value of the WDW vacation becomes questionable, when the system Disney puts in place greatly reduces your access to attractions and shows. not a good thing.