AP sales…

Status
Not open for further replies.
I tend to agree. With the exception of one advantage, I don't think the reservation system does much to enhance the guest experience. I'm not even convinced that it necessarily helps Disney determine staffing levels because of the reports of uneven guest experiences (especially on the Disneyland/CA adventure side of things).

The one advantage to the reservation system for guests is you know you will be admitted to the park for which you have a reservation. Disney has always had maximum capacities for their parks. On peak days, you always ran the risk that you would not be admitted and would be turned away. (Although, at Disney World my pre-pandemic experience was there was usually one park that had not reached capacity during peak times--maybe someone could chime in as to whether there have been many times where all the parks reached capacity pre-pandemic?)

Honestly, in all my (pre-pandemic) visits I have never not been able to go into a park at WDW (And, we have gone many times during Christmas/New Years and Spring Break). Maybe the capacity issue has changed substantially. Maybe it hasn't. It's all speculation because we don't have that proprietary information. Maybe there is a lot of pent up demand and that is what is disrupting this?

Anyway, besides (allegedly) targeting the folks that statistically spend the most money, the reservation system also provides a huge cash infusion due to FOMO. You buy non-refundable tickets as soon as you possibly can so that you can make reservations as soon as you possibly can.

In regards to collecting data on annual pass holders, I would be surprised if they didn't already have this data between magic band tracking, annual pass discounts and guest folios, etc. Right now I think the data may be skewed because Disney stopped selling annual passes and some of the folks buying regular passes might have purchased annual passes if given the opportunity and also Disney imposed a limit on how many folks holding annual passes that can go into the parks.
I wonder if this whole thing would go away if Disney just ended the bucket system.
Even if Disney ends the bucket system there are other problems with the park pass system. Disney sells date-based tickets now, charging more money for premium dates that are more likely to sell out. If you sell date-based tickets and then every park hits capacity and someone with a date-based ticket can’t go to any park, I think that’s eventually going to be problematic and potentially the source of a lawsuit as well. There’s a reason that every other theme park int he country gave up reservation systems after covid crowd control fell out of favor.
 
The AP discount was Disney's trophy perk with buying direct. I wonder if not being able to utilize that perk is affecting direct sales?
 
The AP discount was Disney's trophy perk with buying direct. I wonder if not being able to utilize that perk is affecting direct sales?
Given gfv does not open to non dvc members until March 31 I doubt it. Let’s see what April and may sales are

i do think it makes selling gfv harder to new members, not impossible but it certainly won’t help
 
The AP discount was Disney's trophy perk with buying direct. I wonder if not being able to utilize that perk is affecting direct sales?

Honestly I don’t think so. I bet less DVC owners buy APs than you think. As I shared, I know about 15 other DVC families personally, and not one of them buy APs because they don’t go more than once a year.

I really think we overestimate the new buyers who go in and buy because perks like an AP over buying for the benefits of owning it for what it is.
 

This will be very interesting to see how all this pans out. I think Disney really is up the creek with this stunt.
 
Even if Disney ends the bucket system there are other problems with the park pass system. Disney sells date-based tickets now, charging more money for premium dates that are more likely to sell out. If you sell date-based tickets and then every park hits capacity and someone with a date-based ticket can’t go to any park, I think that’s eventually going to be problematic and potentially the source of a lawsuit as well. There’s a reason that every other theme park int he country gave up reservation systems after covid crowd control fell out of favor.

The number of times Disney has sold out any park in the past 10 years can be counted on 10 fingers.
 
/
FYI. Right now, there are a lot of 10-12 "bedroom" "houses" being cheaply built and sold immediately southwest of the Disney World property. The bedrooms are the size of a large closet! I would bet my "believe it." that those were not ever intended as permanent homes for "large families." They sound like Air B&Bs to me. The damage that is going to do to nearby properties is huge. Disney has experience with that kind of thing from the Anaheim area in California. IIRC Walt Disney himself was so very disappointed in that nearby development. It was one of the reasons Disney World came to be. Disney recently announced they were going to build some Storybook housing. So far this is in other areas of the country. However, they did just buy 36 acres immediately west of Disney World.

Possibly OT but for those interested & not familiar with Central FLA, those types of "investment" communities are extremely common. I'm sure there are stats somewhere. They are sold as Vacation Homes & zoned for short-term rental. They've been around for decades. They are not marketed as permanent homes. Their HOAs sometimes regulate even interior upkeep (refurbs/soft-goods) & can offer rental/management services. Not sure too many then were built as 10-12 BRs but 6-8 wasn't uncommon. There are probably thousands of those homes now.
Additionally, there are condo & smaller homes communities zoned short-term rental. It's a complete antithesis to Walt's original dream of unlimited 'space' for WDW to grow. In the decades since '71, developers, not Disney, have scooped up the land & built right up to Disney property lines. Urban sprawl, FLA-style. 😢
 
Upon reconsideration, I think you are right about this. Excellent point. Thank you! Current data would be skewed. One caveat. It appears Disney stopped artificially blocking passholders beyond the contracted pass block-out dates on November 24, 2021. Look at the current Disney World park reservation availability and you can see Tickets are limited, "Hotel" resorts are limited, but not Annual Passes (beyond the contractual block-out dates.)
Interesting that the original action regarding Disneyland Magic Key date limits was filed in early November. 😏. I don’t think that is coincidence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cm8
I'm not usually one to prognosticate (although my prediction of VGF2 as the next DVC was dead on), but let's look at the issues regarding APs:

1. AP's sold to Florida and California residents for use in FL and CA respectively yield lower revenue to Disney, both in terms of average admission price and average amount spent in the parks. Disney reports "gate figures" including these lower revenue residents. If Disney eliminates FL and CA passes, the gate figures will drop. No matter how much Chapek explains the "fundamental change" in eliminating these lower revenue guests, the stock price will take a hit. Investors will see the drop in gate figures as a sign that people are going elsewhere, and that Disney theme parks are in decline. If the stock drops in price, so does Chapek's income. If the stock drops too far, Chapek is replaced. This is further reinforced by the "return" of AP's for FL and CA following the pandemic closure, when Disney NEEDED those locals to come to the park to show that Disney parks were still a destination post-pandemic. So, FL and CA discounted passes aren't likely to disappear.

2. AP's sold to non-FL and CA residents are relatively small in number. They exist for the die hard Disney fans, which is a tiny number, and DVC members, which is a larger number.

The non-DVC die hard fans are coming and staying, likely on site, for multiple trips or for very long trips (as we've seen with non-US users of this board). I don't think we can even guess as to what the behavior of the die hard fans are regarding revenue in park, since one can make the argument that die hard fans already probably own every souvenir, but the counter argument that new souvenirs come out monthly can quash that. I think it's safe to say that the die hard fan probably isn't staying or dining off site. So, their incremental revenue is probably close to, if not greater than, the "average" person who comes for a week and buys individual passes. The difference is their theme park admission price. Realistically, the theme park admission price is a smallish fraction of the entire trip considering the price of Disney lodging, food, and souvenirs. The numbers of passes sold in this category, and the iffiness of the revenue model, probably mean this will remain available, but only as an Incredipass.

The DVC members get a discount. DVC leverages that discount to sell direct contracts. DVC members aren't paying for Disney lodging. DVC members may or may not be paying for Disney food and souvenirs. DVC members are the "lower revenue customers" that Chapek would like to curtail in the park. But, the trade-off between the cash coming in from DVD/DVC and the lower revenue in the park isn't clearly defined. If DVC eliminates AP discounts, would that push people toward resale? Would it de-value DVC's direct sale pricing? If DVC owners don't have AP's, would they buy a lower number of individual days in the Disney parks (I did on my recent trip) and *gasp* go to Universal or SeaWorld instead? If those people in the 1000+ DVC rooms at 95% utilization suddenly stopped going to Disney parks, "gate figures" would fall (see #1 above). In addition to the falling gate figures, Disney would also suffer from the loss of ancillary revenue (e.g., I ate lunch at Universal, instead of having lunch at Disney). I believe that DVC AP's will continue, if only because DVC, who has a seat at the table, will rightfully claim that eliminating one of the biggest direct sales incentives may cripple their future growth.

3. Theme parks in the northern part of the country aren't open all year. They sell annual passes before they open, typically for a period of a few months. I've had passes to three different parks near me. All were priced based upon a 3 day regular admission. I suspect this metric is based upon the average number of times a person actually uses their pass (using a multiplier, of course). If a typical pass is used 6 times, they're offering a 50% discount over regular admission pricing. Unless you are hyper-local, you're not likely attending a northern theme park more than 12 times a year.

Disney's AP is different. Disney is open all year around. They're pricing the Sorcerer pass based upon a 12 day average priced admission. By doing that, they're eliminating the AP from consideration for guests who are coming for a one time trip lasting a week. They're also eliminating the locals who won't use it for at least 12 days during the year. In effect, they're creating a perfect storm of locals who will use it like crazy, thereby increasing the gate figures, and people who plan on returning multiple times inside a one year period, or whose total stays are going to be longer than 12 days (which are your DVC members and non-US guests).

I think that AP's will return, if only to keep the gate figures up. Disney could have eliminated them during the pandemic, as it was the perfect time due to the park closure. "The parks are closed; gate figures are zero." But, when they re-opened, they needed to stop the stock price slide by showing that people still wanted to go to the parks. So, AP's were re-offered.

4. The lawsuit in California is a good reason to halt AP sales. While Disney has changed the buckets, the fundamental problem of "low revenue customers" using AP's still exist. They'd still like to claim that their average revenue per customer is increasing, while maintaining or increasing their gate figures. But, greater AP use lowers that average revenue per customer figure. Their only way to increase that is to figure out ways to charge users more.

Genie+ is a good example of getting more money out of a certain percentage of customers. If your daily admission is $100 and you get 33% of the people to buy Genie+, you're now averaging $105 per guest, a very respectable 5% revenue increase per customer.

individual lightning lanes are another way of getting more money out of park goers. I willingly forked over $25 per person to ride ROTR and Avatar this trip instead of waiting 2+ hours in line at each ride.

Implement price increases on food, right up to the point where Disney executives are saying that they're going to reduce portion sizes (meaning they've hit the top of what people are willing to spend).

$24.99 for a T shirt. Really? Even with the 20% DVC discount, it was hard to justify buying one.

In Chapek's quest to show increasing key performance indicators (gate figures, revenue per guest, bottom line) to investors, he's boxed himself in. If he eliminates AP's, he's likely out. If he increases AP's, his KPI's suffer, so he needs more revenue opportunities. If he continues the recent trends on pricing and "nickel and diming" his customers, gate figures for higher revenue customers may fall as frustration builds in those customers. In addition, his goal of making Disney a more premium experience (i.e., more costly) competes with other premium experiences that can be afforded by those higher revenue customers. Would you prefer to take you children to WDW for a third time, or would you like to take them to Europe, Asia, or the Caribbean for less money and brand new experiences?
 
I'm not usually one to prognosticate (although my prediction of VGF2 as the next DVC was dead on), but let's look at the issues regarding APs:

1. AP's sold to Florida and California residents for use in FL and CA respectively yield lower revenue to Disney, both in terms of average admission price and average amount spent in the parks. Disney reports "gate figures" including these lower revenue residents. If Disney eliminates FL and CA passes, the gate figures will drop. No matter how much Chapek explains the "fundamental change" in eliminating these lower revenue guests, the stock price will take a hit. Investors will see the drop in gate figures as a sign that people are going elsewhere, and that Disney theme parks are in decline. If the stock drops in price, so does Chapek's income. If the stock drops too far, Chapek is replaced. This is further reinforced by the "return" of AP's for FL and CA following the pandemic closure, when Disney NEEDED those locals to come to the park to show that Disney parks were still a destination post-pandemic. So, FL and CA discounted passes aren't likely to disappear.

2. AP's sold to non-FL and CA residents are relatively small in number. They exist for the die hard Disney fans, which is a tiny number, and DVC members, which is a larger number.

The non-DVC die hard fans are coming and staying, likely on site, for multiple trips or for very long trips (as we've seen with non-US users of this board). I don't think we can even guess as to what the behavior of the die hard fans are regarding revenue in park, since one can make the argument that die hard fans already probably own every souvenir, but the counter argument that new souvenirs come out monthly can quash that. I think it's safe to say that the die hard fan probably isn't staying or dining off site. So, their incremental revenue is probably close to, if not greater than, the "average" person who comes for a week and buys individual passes. The difference is their theme park admission price. Realistically, the theme park admission price is a smallish fraction of the entire trip considering the price of Disney lodging, food, and souvenirs. The numbers of passes sold in this category, and the iffiness of the revenue model, probably mean this will remain available, but only as an Incredipass.

The DVC members get a discount. DVC leverages that discount to sell direct contracts. DVC members aren't paying for Disney lodging. DVC members may or may not be paying for Disney food and souvenirs. DVC members are the "lower revenue customers" that Chapek would like to curtail in the park. But, the trade-off between the cash coming in from DVD/DVC and the lower revenue in the park isn't clearly defined. If DVC eliminates AP discounts, would that push people toward resale? Would it de-value DVC's direct sale pricing? If DVC owners don't have AP's, would they buy a lower number of individual days in the Disney parks (I did on my recent trip) and *gasp* go to Universal or SeaWorld instead? If those people in the 1000+ DVC rooms at 95% utilization suddenly stopped going to Disney parks, "gate figures" would fall (see #1 above). In addition to the falling gate figures, Disney would also suffer from the loss of ancillary revenue (e.g., I ate lunch at Universal, instead of having lunch at Disney). I believe that DVC AP's will continue, if only because DVC, who has a seat at the table, will rightfully claim that eliminating one of the biggest direct sales incentives may cripple their future growth.

3. Theme parks in the northern part of the country aren't open all year. They sell annual passes before they open, typically for a period of a few months. I've had passes to three different parks near me. All were priced based upon a 3 day regular admission. I suspect this metric is based upon the average number of times a person actually uses their pass (using a multiplier, of course). If a typical pass is used 6 times, they're offering a 50% discount over regular admission pricing. Unless you are hyper-local, you're not likely attending a northern theme park more than 12 times a year.

Disney's AP is different. Disney is open all year around. They're pricing the Sorcerer pass based upon a 12 day average priced admission. By doing that, they're eliminating the AP from consideration for guests who are coming for a one time trip lasting a week. They're also eliminating the locals who won't use it for at least 12 days during the year. In effect, they're creating a perfect storm of locals who will use it like crazy, thereby increasing the gate figures, and people who plan on returning multiple times inside a one year period, or whose total stays are going to be longer than 12 days (which are your DVC members and non-US guests).

I think that AP's will return, if only to keep the gate figures up. Disney could have eliminated them during the pandemic, as it was the perfect time due to the park closure. "The parks are closed; gate figures are zero." But, when they re-opened, they needed to stop the stock price slide by showing that people still wanted to go to the parks. So, AP's were re-offered.

4. The lawsuit in California is a good reason to halt AP sales. While Disney has changed the buckets, the fundamental problem of "low revenue customers" using AP's still exist. They'd still like to claim that their average revenue per customer is increasing, while maintaining or increasing their gate figures. But, greater AP use lowers that average revenue per customer figure. Their only way to increase that is to figure out ways to charge users more.

Genie+ is a good example of getting more money out of a certain percentage of customers. If your daily admission is $100 and you get 33% of the people to buy Genie+, you're now averaging $105 per guest, a very respectable 5% revenue increase per customer.

individual lightning lanes are another way of getting more money out of park goers. I willingly forked over $25 per person to ride ROTR and Avatar this trip instead of waiting 2+ hours in line at each ride.

Implement price increases on food, right up to the point where Disney executives are saying that they're going to reduce portion sizes (meaning they've hit the top of what people are willing to spend).

$24.99 for a T shirt. Really? Even with the 20% DVC discount, it was hard to justify buying one.

In Chapek's quest to show increasing key performance indicators (gate figures, revenue per guest, bottom line) to investors, he's boxed himself in. If he eliminates AP's, he's likely out. If he increases AP's, his KPI's suffer, so he needs more revenue opportunities. If he continues the recent trends on pricing and "nickel and diming" his customers, gate figures for higher revenue customers may fall as frustration builds in those customers. In addition, his goal of making Disney a more premium experience (i.e., more costly) competes with other premium experiences that can be afforded by those higher revenue customers. Would you prefer to take you children to WDW for a third time, or would you like to take them to Europe, Asia, or the Caribbean for less money and brand new experiences?
This may be one of the best analyses of an issue I’ve ever seen on a forum. It’s going to take me awhile to process everything but thank you for your well-reasoned musings.

Also, as much as I love Disney please consider other travel experiences. We took our children to Europe several times during their school years using relatively inexpensive packages. It fostered a love of travel and adventure in them.
 
Last edited:
If DVC owners don't have AP's, would they buy a lower number of individual days in the Disney parks (I did on my recent trip) and *gasp* go to Universal or SeaWorld instead? If those people in the 1000+ DVC rooms at 95% utilization suddenly stopped going to Disney parks, "gate figures" would fall (see #1 above). In addition to the falling gate figures, Disney would also suffer from the loss of ancillary revenue (e.g., I ate lunch at Universal, instead of having lunch at Disney).

I recently bought into DVC for the resorts as much as for the parks, if not more.
I really enjoy resort only days.
My plan has always been to have one long stay and a number of short stays each year.
Getting an AP would be very beneficial, as buying tickets for 1-3 day stays, multiple times a year, would add up quickly.

Until WDW APs for DVC members come back, I am looking at getting a UOAP.
The UOAP Premier Pass for non-FL residents is less expensive than the Disney Sorcerer Pass and includes free Valet & Prime Self-Parking, Universal Express After 4 pm, and Early Park Admission.
This might be my go-to plan until WDW APs come back.
 
I am looking at getting a UOAP.
have held AP at U for decades, prices slowly rising. tend to get a top tier for myself, seasonal for family who don’t visit as often as easy enough to upgrade at the gate if we run into blackout dates.

be aware there have been surveys sent out to PH with Qs as to possibility of going to park reservation system also.
 
Things are not yet 100% in the parks. Many shows are still dark or in reduced form, no real character meet, mostly no street entertainment, restaurants are not 100%. For many days park passes are sold out which means they meet their reduced cap.
Once all those thing are back, AP will be back.
If they planned to discontinue or alter dramatically the AP programme, they would have done like in DL. They are still allowing AP renewals, which means new sales will restart. We don't know when and it is certainly a huge issue for people with vacations booked in the next few weeks.
Prices are at 100% PLUS. lol
 
I recently bought into DVC for the resorts as much as for the parks, if not more.
I really enjoy resort only days.
My plan has always been to have one long stay and a number of short stays each year.
Getting an AP would be very beneficial, as buying tickets for 1-3 day stays, multiple times a year, would add up quickly.

Until WDW APs for DVC members come back, I am looking at getting a UOAP.
The UOAP Premier Pass for non-FL residents is less expensive than the Disney Sorcerer Pass and includes free Valet & Prime Self-Parking, Universal Express After 4 pm, and Early Park Admission.
This might be my go-to plan until WDW APs come back.

We went top level for UOAP and I don't regret it. The express pass after 4 worked well and the only negative was that prime parking was typically gone by early afternoon when we'd arrive. Knowing that we can do almost any ride with a 20 minutes or less wait during spring break was way less stressful than doing Disney.

I'd like WDW to expand evening hours to include MK, HS and Epcot every week. It's a good perk and it should be MK and HS if they're only doing 2 parks. Wait times at HS are way worse than Epcot.
 
Theme parks in the northern part of the country aren't open all year. They sell annual passes before they open, typically for a period of a few months. I've had passes to three different parks near me. All were priced based upon a 3 day regular admission.
For my market (Cedar Point, Kings Island, etc.) the break-even point for a season pass is somewhere between two and three days---and over time it has drifted closer to two.

For the WDW and DLR markets, the break-even point seems to have been between two and three "visits" of several days each. If you come twice in a year for 4-5 days each trip, an AP is very close to break-even for most people, maybe a few dollars more. This ratio has been pretty consistent for most of the time I've been paying attention (about 15 years now). For example, a mid-May visit with a five day hopper is about $600 pre-tax. The relevant AP for most people would be $1300 pre-tax. That's pretty close to two visits, and you can justify the extra $100 in theme park parking, merch/dining/resort discounts, etc. etc. etc. if you wanted to.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.



New Posts

















DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest

Back
Top