Any Unschoolers here who ditched that method?

[DisneyLoverUSA]

Well first off, thank you for insinuating that I don't want to be accountable for homeschooling my children and that I'm doing something wrong and am thusly afraid to be caught. Awfully kind of you to make such assumptions.

Secondly, if Texas started requiring standardized testing we would definitely start seeking a job transfer for my husband to a more homeschool friendly state. I have absolutely no qualms about the state knowing what and how I teach my children - I am a devoted teacher and hold my children to very high academic standards. What I do have a problem with is forcing my children to take standardized tests that are meaningless and cause undo stress and anxiety for the children who are taking them and they certainly don't provide any reliable gauge as to how well my child is learning at home. For instance, if said test asked my 5th grader about recent American history - he would know very little because we haven't covered that yet. But if it asked him about ancient history or early American history - he'd pass with flying colors because we've covered those subjects in depth. Subjecting homeschoolers to tests that were written to go along side public school curriculum is asinine and a waste of everyone's time.

It seems pretty drastic to me that you would uproot your entire family, have your husband transfer his job and move to a whole other state just to keep from having to be accountable for your child's education. Just to PROVE you are homeschooling your kids.

HOWEVER you kind of answered why in your own response. You said yourself your kids are FAR BEHIND public schools in some areas so in actuality your kids probably wouldn't pass the standardized testing would they? Then the consequences for that is you have to put your kids back in school. I can see the need for such desperate measures.

 

[bdcp]

I find it interesting that people think that academic accountability = state involvement. I homeschool my children because I want *better* for them than what the state can give them. If I had to hold to the public school standards for my kids, I would be doing them a disservice because I go above and beyond what they would receive in a public school setting.

My accountability for my kid's education comes from my family and myself - we are all much more invested in their lives and how well they turn out than any school board member or congressman/woman will ever be.

I agree with freedom from government total involvement in our lives, but there need to be minimums. The bigger problem will be children who are allowed to do whatever they want turn into adults who think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. More than likely unemployable because they can't handle having someone telling them what to do it and having to stick to a schedule. I'm all for homeschoolers who go above and beyond and teach their children to live in the real world. The mother the OP wrote about isn't doing that. It sounds more like she's afraid her kids won't like her if she makes them do something.

All the kids I know who have been homeschooled (not unschooled) have gotten into the colleges of their choice and have been very successful in life as well as their careers. But, they have all followed curriculums and done more than they had to.

 

[skater]

So you'd rather live where there is no accountability for your children's education??

I wish every single state in the country had a law mandating homeschoolers were required to prove they are actually educating their children.

I wish every single state in the country had a law mandating that all children were educated - it doesn't seem like that's happening consistently now. I know there are plenty of wonderful teachers out there and great school systems, but I also know there are large numbers of kids not being educated properly. Why not fix the big numbers before we worry about the small number of "bad" homeschooling parents who are not educating their children.

And maybe we should have the "authorities" look into the families who are not supportive of their puclic schooled children. We all know what they look like - the ones who don't care what's going on at school, who don't go to conferences, who don't respond to teachers, who don't make sure their kids do their homework, eat a good breakfast, etc.

Almost every single homeschooling family I know (and I know a lot) teach their children at home because they care about them and feel like its the best choice for their children. They work hard and manage somehow to educate them very well. They immediately know when their child is missing something and if they can't help them, they get help. They hire tutors, join co-ops, enroll them in community college classes. They pay taxes for schools and then, suck it up when their children aren't allowed to play High School sports or do music. And they somehow graduate young adults who go to college, trade schools, etc. Adults who are independent learners and thinkers.

I'm not saying every homeschooling family is great - there are good and bad people everywhere, but the majority I've observed, do a great or good enough job because no one will be as invested in their children as they will (generally).

 

[usd2bmd]

I find it interesting that people think that academic accountability = state involvement. I homeschool my children because I want *better* for them than what the state can give them. If I had to hold to the public school standards for my kids, I would be doing them a disservice because I go above and beyond what they would receive in a public school setting.

My accountability for my kid's education comes from my family and myself - we are all much more invested in their lives and how well they turn out than any school board member or congressman/woman will ever be.

We are not saying that accountability + state involvement, But there needs to be some governing body. Not everyone home schooling their children has a spouse that holds a masters degree and is a professor.
I am also certian that you did not intend to offend anyone who is not homeschooling their children by inferring that we don't want better for them than the public school standards...not all parents are in a position that homeschooloing is a viable option, and not all public school education is substandard.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

When we moved to NJ, we did a lot of research into school districts because we believe that if we are going to pay school taxes, we are going to use public schools - but we wanted good schools without over-reaching policies. So, I have never moved to avoid a bad school district, but I might consider it if my currect school district radically changed its policies.

I want to raise my children my way. In some school districts, that is almost impossible.

 

[knitster]

It seems pretty drastic to me that you would uproot your entire family, have your husband transfer his job and move to a whole other state just to keep from having to be accountable for your child's education. Just to PROVE you are homeschooling your kids.

HOWEVER you kind of answered why in your own response. You said yourself your kids are FAR BEHIND public schools in some areas so in actuality your kids probably wouldn't pass the standardized testing would they? Then the consequences for that is you have to put your kids back in school. I can see the need for such desperate measures.

What I was referring to when I said that my children are 'far behind' in some subjects is history, because we teach history on a chronological timeline and the public schools do not. So while my kids were learning about ancient civilizations, their public schooled peers were learning Texas history and my kids haven't learned that yet. (which I already stated in a previous post).

I would hardly call not knowing state history (yet) a failure to school my kids. Especially considering my 5 year old reads at a 1st grade level and my 10 year old is doing pre algebra and pre geometry and they both walked into Epcot's Norway this past spring and started gushing to my mother about Leif Erikson and his journey to discovering North America. I mean, if you can tell me that a public schooled 5 year old knows who Leif Erkson is and what he discovered, then maybe we'll have a fair discussion here.

I'm perfectly ok with you thinking it's drastic to move to another state to avoid controlling and inane laws. Just as you should be perfectly ok with someone else taking hypothetical drastic measures that in no way impact your life.

I agree with freedom from government total involvement in our lives, but there need to be minimums. The bigger problem will be children who are allowed to do whatever they want turn into adults who think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. More than likely unemployable because they can't handle having someone telling them what to do it and having to stick to a schedule. I'm all for homeschoolers who go above and beyond and teach their children to live in the real world. The mother the OP wrote about isn't doing that. It sounds more like she's afraid her kids won't like her if she makes them do something.

I 100% agree that the situation the OP as laid out is complete neglect and/or abuse and someone needs to step in.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So you mean to say that if Texas suddenly started regulating homeschoolers you would pick your family up and move out of state to some other state that was hands off so that you don't have to be accountable for actually homeschooling your child?



I think the only ppl who fear regulation are the ppl who are doing something wrong or doing nothing at all and don't want to be caught.
.

That is quite the blanket statement.

For some it is not "Fear" as though they are scared to get in trouble.

For those it is "fear" that their liberty will be compromised with unnecessary oversight. I think people "fear" that should one child fall through the cracks, that is a good enough excuse to tighten up the homeschooling regulations. However, many more students fall through the public school cracks despite being highly regulated.

I spoke about our 32 week curriculum earlier. It is 4 weeks shorter than a standard curriculum. Even less when you consider that the 5th day of each week is only math and in higher grades an elective such as art or music.

States that regulate attendance such as Texas with 180 days means I have to go and find an additional 20+ days of work. Possibly more to account for 32 days of my schedule which are only a small fraction of a day.

We voluntarily take standardized tests that my kids do very well on their scores.

For my state to suddenly mandate days--well now I have to come up with extra work that I don't want to come up with. I don't want to "count" a field trip day as school. For us it is school, but I don't want to have to go and document. We do them for fun, not for documentation. It's silly.

In Maryland--they have no mandate on curriculum (i.e. child must take math, science, English, etc...) except for PE. I found that silly. They also have an overwhelming opinion that the kids should be registered with umbrella schools. I have educated my kids fine for the past 6 years. Up until this past year, I have had a certified teacher assess their progress. They do fine. It is my choice, I don't need it to be a mandate. It makes the process much more stressful than it needs to be. We didn't move to that state as a result, but we had a choice between the two states due to my husband's options with the same company and I wanted VA as it was much more homeschooler friendly while still having some oversight.

There are also constitutional considerations which is why homeschooling became legal in the first place and affected how the various states wrote their laws. Making stronger laws in the 50 states than currently exists will be fought hard by those homeschoolers who want their freedom to educate their children as they have been doing.

Stories such as this aren't enough to sway for stronger litigation because most often they are the anomaly.

ETA: For the bolded--no state would "suddenly" do anything as their is a process to change law.

 

[knitster]

When we moved to NJ, we did a lot of research into school districts because we believe that if we are going to pay school taxes, we are going to use public schools - but we wanted good schools without over-reaching policies. So, I have never moved to avoid a bad school district, but I might consider it if my currect school district radically changed its policies.

I want to raise my children my way. In some school districts, that is almost impossible.

See? That's what I find comical about people being up in arms about me saying that we would move to avoid a controlling state hs policy - because so many people (most people, I'd venture to say), chose the home they buy or the town they live in based on the school district. What I'm saying is no different, it's just that I don't get to chose a school district - I don't have that luxury, I have to chose an entire state.

 

[DIS_MERI]

I'm too lazy today to multiquote:

The HomeSchool Legal Defense Association website has information on each state's requirements to legally homeschool.

Many homeschoolers use curriculum that is used in private schools, or has otherwise been tested on live humans somewhere We personally use (rather loosely) a book called The Well-Trained Mind to help pick curriculum. My local public school is truly awful, and my kids may well already be better educated than the graduates of our local schools.

I think that the OP's friend is truly doing a terrible disservice to her children, and society at large in the end. She is running a (poorly constructed) social experiment with her own kids. I agree that if the friend refuses to listen to her DH and give the poor kids some structure and instruction, he should consider divorce and full custody (and I am not a fan of divorce). My state requires very little oversight, but educational neglect is still neglect.

 

[skater]

It seems pretty drastic to me that you would uproot your entire family, have your husband transfer his job and move to a whole other state just to keep from having to be accountable for your child's education. Just to PROVE you are homeschooling your kids.

HOWEVER you kind of answered why in your own response. You said yourself your kids are FAR BEHIND public schools in some areas so in actuality your kids probably wouldn't pass the standardized testing would they? Then the consequences for that is you have to put your kids back in school. I can see the need for such desperate measures.

I don't really think you carefully read her posts or you would understand that she meant her children are learning different things at different times than the children in her district. They will not be behind those kids forever - they will know more about things that she has covered and less about things she has not yet covered. And she is not saying she doesn't want to be accountable.

One of the advantages of homeschooling is to not waste time teaching to a standardized test. My oldest child never took a standardized test until the SAT - and she did great on it. I knew what she knew just by working with her every day. Subjects she strugged with were studied harder. Why would I need her to take a test when I knew her better than anybody?

 

[knitster]

That is quite the blanket statement.

For some it is not "Fear" as though they are scared to get in trouble.

For those it is "fear" that their liberty will be compromised with unnecessary oversight. I think people "fear" that should one child fall through the cracks, that is a good enough excuse to tighten up the homeschooling regulations. However, many more students fall through the public school cracks despite being highly regulated.

I spoke about our 32 week curriculum earlier. It is 4 weeks shorter than a standard curriculum. Even less when you consider that the 5th day of each week is only math and in higher grades an elective such as art or music.

States that regulate attendance such as Texas with 180 days means I have to go and find an additional 20+ days of work. Possibly more to account for 32 days of my schedule which are only a small fraction of a day.

We voluntarily take standardized tests that my kids do very well on their scores.

For my state to suddenly mandate days--well now I have to come up with extra work that I don't want to come up with. I don't want to "count" a field trip day as school. For us it is school, but I don't want to have to go and document. We do them for fun, not for documentation. It's silly.

In Maryland--they have no mandate on curriculum (i.e. child must take math, science, English, etc...) except for PE. I found that silly. They also have an overwhelming opinion that the kids should be registered with umbrella schools. I have educated my kids fine for the past 6 years. Up until this past year, I have had a certified teacher assess their progress. They do fine. It is my choice, I don't need it to be a mandate. It makes the process much more stressful than it needs to be. We didn't move to that state as a result, but we had a choice between the two states due to my husband's options with the same company and I wanted VA as it was much more homeschooler friendly while still having some oversight.

There are also constitutional considerations which is why homeschooling became legal in the first place and affected how the various states wrote their laws. Making stronger laws in the 50 states than currently exists will be fought hard by those homeschoolers who want their freedom to educate their children as they have been doing.

Stories such as this aren't enough to sway for stronger litigation because most often they are the anomaly.

ETA: For the bolded--no state would "suddenly" do anything as their is a process to change law.

THANK YOU! Exactly!! I'm a big fan of my civil liberties.

Also, the 180 days in Texas is only mandated for public schools, not homeschoolers.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

See? That's what I find comical about people being up in arms about me saying that we would move to avoid a controlling state hs policy - because so many people (most people, I'd venture to say), chose the home they buy or the town they live in based on the school district. What I'm saying is no different, it's just that I don't get to chose a school district - I don't have that luxury, I have to chose an entire state.

We understand your argument, and it is a solid one. Texas is one of the states that really gets that its people want individual freedom.

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

Well first off, thank you for insinuating that I don't want to be accountable for homeschooling my children and that I'm doing something wrong and am thusly afraid to be caught. Awfully kind of you to make such assumptions.

Secondly, if Texas started requiring standardized testing we would definitely start seeking a job transfer for my husband to a more homeschool friendly state. I have absolutely no qualms about the state knowing what and how I teach my children - I am a devoted teacher and hold my children to very high academic standards. What I do have a problem with is forcing my children to take standardized tests that are meaningless and cause undo stress and anxiety for the children who are taking them and they certainly don't provide any reliable gauge as to how well my child is learning at home. For instance, if said test asked my 5th grader about recent American history - he would know very little because we haven't covered that yet. But if it asked him about ancient history or early American history - he'd pass with flying colors because we've covered those subjects in depth. Subjecting homeschoolers to tests that were written to go along side public school curriculum is asinine and a waste of everyone's time.

Is it you or your kids that have test anxiety?

How would you like your kids to function when they are in college and Mommy isn't there to keep tests away from them?

How do you think your kids will react in the future when there isn't special accommodations made for them?

If your home schooling is just about avoiding testing you are setting them up for failure.

 

[knitster]

We are not saying that accountability + state involvement, But there needs to be some governing body. Not everyone home schooling their children has a spouse that holds a masters degree and is a professor.
I am also certian that you did not intend to offend anyone who is not homeschooling their children by inferring that we don't want better for them than the public school standards...not all parents are in a position that homeschooloing is a viable option, and not all public school education is substandard.

I absolutely do not mean to offend - I and my husband and my entire family, for that matter, are all products of public schooling and I think we all turned out well. I have zero issues with anyone who chooses public schools for their children - homeschooling is NOT for everyone! It's just that I forget add those disclaimers in my haste to defend myself from unnecessary verbal attacks.

I don't really think you carefully read her posts or you would understand that she meant her children are learning different things at different times than the children in her district. They will not be behind those kids forever - they will know more about things that she has covered and less about things she has not yet covered. And she is not saying she doesn't want to be accountable.

One of the advantages of homeschooling is to not waste time teaching to a standardized test. My oldest child never took a standardized test until the SAT - and she did great on it. I knew what she knew just by working with her every day. Subjects she strugged with were studied harder. Why would I need her to take a test when I knew her better than anybody?

Yes, exactly! Thank you for explaining it better than I did.

 

[skater]

Is it you or your kids that have test anxiety?

How would you like your kids to function when they are in college and Mommy isn't there to keep tests away from them?

How do you think your kids will react in the future when there isn't special accommodations made for them?

If your home schooling is just about avoiding testing you are setting them up for failure.

Everything you've described is just not what happens in real life. As I wrote previously, my DD took the SAT test recently as her first standardized test - and did great. And I don't think the other poster's homeschooling is about avoiding testing. Testing is simply not necessary when you work with your children every day. I would also bet that parents who don't homeschool (if they're involved with their children) also know how their kids are doing academically - without a test to tell them.

And not taking standardized tests does not set them up for failure. I'm not sure how you would take that leap in logic.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So the state has no idea if you are actually teaching your children? I don't mean to offend anyone, but how do you know that you are properly preparing them for higher education I assume that is your/their goal) if you don't know that they are a the same level as their peers in a traditional school environment? I think those that choose to home school their children (for the most part) deserve a lot of respect. But if there is no governing body, you can say that you are homeschooling and just not send them.

I can answer this.

First off, you are assuming that homeschool parents live under a rock and don't know how to research what a child needs to "graduate" and become an adult who can either go to college, just to work (since there are kids educated in all methods who just opt for no further education right away or ever), apprentice (for those careers where that may be an option) or attend trade school.

I can research my states graduation requirements which give a basic bar for what is a basic admissions standard for college. Then I can look at what my child is interested in for college study and then fine tune their course work to give them a better advantage in the admissions process. Knowing what courses they need to take in high school, I will then back track to middle school to route them correctly. So I know that my child will need to be on track for Algebra 1 in 8th grade for her given interests in science. This will allow her to track to take the proper higher level maths so that she can take the higher level sciences.

Simply put--we look at the same information available to any other parent of any other educational option and we track our kids accordingly.

I am in my second state with no specific course requirements for homeschoolers and have known MANY parents who have successfully graduated their homeschoolers who then went on to universities and colleges without an issue.

 

[Imzadi]

It seems pretty drastic to me that you would uproot your entire family, have your husband transfer his job and move to a whole other state just to keep from having to be accountable for your child's education. Just to PROVE you are homeschooling your kids.

I agree with freedom from government total involvement in our lives, but there need to be minimums. The bigger problem will be children who are allowed to do whatever they want turn into adults who think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want. More than likely unemployable because they can't handle having someone telling them what to do it and having to stick to a schedule.

There is a concept called "Demand Resistance." It is a resistance or rebellion to perceived demands, requests or when someone requires something from them, even if the "demand" is a positive one. They feel they are thwarting that demand by denying it, (saying a big F-you,) even if it is a reasonable, rational demand. Sometimes they will even cut off their own nose, spiting themselves, instead of giving in to the perceived demands, AND be very proud of themselves while doing it. Ultimately it's a power struggle. It is a subconscious reaction, a rebellion to a controlling parent or authority figure.

The mom in the first post, wants her children to be "free thinkers," not having anyone having authority over them. It probably goes back to somewhere in her own childhood, that she's rebelling against and trying to thwart. She cannot see how much she is hurting her own children. The need to be demand resistant is greater than the need to raise her children with healthy standards.

Other times, I think it is just lazy people trying to rationalize reasons for NOT doing what is expected of them, when they don't want to put in the minimum required. Easier to say F-you to the authority.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

So your answer is yes, you don't want to live some where you are accountable for your children's education.

She actually didn't say that.

 

[knitster]

Is it you or your kids that have test anxiety?
.

Neither, actually. I sickly enjoy test - to the point that I started taking practice ACT/SAT test in the 6th grade (through the gifted program) and took them every year until high school. My kids have also never exhibited any text anxiety, though I'm sure they would feel quite pressured if the state threatened to take them away/put them in PS if they didn't get a certain score on a certain test.

How would you like your kids to function when they are in college and Mommy isn't there to keep tests away from them?

Wow, you're awfully insulting for someone who doesn't know me and doesn't have any vested interest in my kid's education. Man.

To answer your question, I'm confident that they will do just fine, thanks for asking.

How do you think your kids will react in the future when there isn't special accommodations made for them?

Again with the assumptions. My kids have no special accommodations made for them. No homeschoolers in TX take standardized tests, so they're doing exactly what their peers are doing - no exceptions. They also take tests during their regular school week without issue.

If your home schooling is just about avoiding testing you are setting them up for failure

Please show me where I said that my homeschooling is just about avoiding testing. I don't recall saying or even insinuating that. I do recall saying that my homeschooling is about giving my kids an education above and beyond what public school offers, though. If you can show me where I said the former I'd be glad to explain myself.

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

Please show me where I said that my homeschooling is just about avoiding testing. I don't recall saying or even insinuating that. I do recall saying that my homeschooling is about giving my kids an education above and beyond what public school offers, though. If you can show me where I said the former I'd be glad to explain myself.

I said "if".