Any Unschoolers here who ditched that method?

[knitster]

Question - if you knew of a "homeschooling" parent who was not teaching their children at all, what would be your options if the state doesn't regulate it in any way?

Well the state does have requirements for homeschoolers and if those requirements are not being met, you can turn someone in to be investigated. The requirements in TX are:

Compulsory Attendance Ages: “a child who is at least six years of age, or who is younger than six years
of age and has previously been enrolled in first grade, and who has not yet
reached the child’s 18th birthday shall attend school.” A child 17 years of
age who has been issued an equivalency certificate is exempt.
Required Days of Instruction: 180 days. Only required for public schools.
Required Subjects: Good citizenship, math, reading, spelling and grammar.

So, if CPS ever showed up on the door of a TX homeschooler, they would only have to prove that they're teaching their children math, reading, spelling, grammar, and good citizenship. If they can't prove that, then the state can go after them.

 

[DebIreland]

Her husband also has to take some responsibility for this travesty as well.

Absolutely. I wonder though did she 'sell' it to the husband as home-schooling. It's quite possible she never used the term 'unschooling' and when she said to her husband that the kids would learn at home in their own time, he assumed they would be home-schooled

 

[Robinrs]

I've never heard of this before this thread, either. I've never heard of anything so idiotic.

Without order there is chaos. At these children's ages there is no proof but she can bet the results will be chaotic. I wouldn't report her or consult her, she will drown in her own stupidity.

 

[humboldthny]

Of course, you can accomplish the same things within the structure of any educational system. Why these parents think that this is the only way to have their kids take control of their own lives and their own education is beyond me.

Of the few unschooling families I have met, it seems that one or both parents had an extremely negative traditional school experience. One father in particular had no problems telling me to my face that teachers and school were "evil" and "ruined his life" (and he knew I was a teacher by profession...I was just a bit offended). There was nothing I could ever say that would change his view point...he'd landed on it wasn't going to budge.

I'm not sure saying anything to your friend is going to matter...her dh probably has the greatest influence (altho' from what you've said it sounds like he's been pretty checked out when it comes to parenting up to this point) and he isn't making any headway. I'd stay out of it....

As far as the kids not reading....unfortunately they are getting near the end of what's considered an ideal age range for that sort of learning (the range for spoken language is even earlier) - age 7 is typically considered the age at which most children have gained some level of reading proficiency given normal development. At this point, even if the 9 year old does decide reading isn't "dumb" he may face significant challenges as he's moving past the optimal developmental stage for that sort of learning. Yes, he can still learn to read, but it won't be as easy or natural (ask any adult ed student how easy it was to learn to read, and they were motivated)- which then waterfalls into it's own set of issues concerning his willingness to put in the extra effort and stick with it.

 

[DisneyLoverUSA]

No, this is a common misconception about homeschooling. In some states, like Texas (hallelujah!), homeschoolers are not required to report anything to anyone and are not required to take any standardized tests.

Homeschooling laws vary from state to state - some states being very controlling and some being completely hands off. We, as a homeschooling family, would never chose to live anywhere but a hands off state.

So you mean to say that if Texas suddenly started regulating homeschoolers you would pick your family up and move out of state to some other state that was hands off so that you don't have to be accountable for actually homeschooling your child?

I lived in Texas when I first started homeschooling my 26 yr old 14 yrs ago and then moved to a state with my 2 youngest ones that has some accountability required but NOT standardized tests.

I think every state should have some form of accountability for homeschoolers because when you don't you get whack job losers like those radical unschoolers who won't even teach the kids how to read. They should go to jail for that. If they had been being overseen by the school board maybe somebody would have caught this grave injustice to these kids by now.

I think the only ppl who fear regulation are the ppl who are doing something wrong or doing nothing at all and don't want to be caught.

I sure don't want the state telling me what kind of curriculum I have to use or how many hours a day I have to homeschool my kids but slight regulation is needed to keep ppl from doing what OP's friend is doing to her kids. Or not doing should I say.

 

[knitster]

So you mean to say that if Texas suddenly started regulating homeschoolers you would pick your family up and move out of state to some other state that was hands off so that you don't have to be accountable for actually homeschooling your child?

I lived in Texas when I first started homeschooling my 26 yr old 14 yrs ago and then moved to a state with my 2 youngest ones that has some accountability required but NOT standardized tests.

I think every state should have some form of accountability for homeschoolers because when you don't you get whack job losers like those radical unschoolers who won't even teach the kids how to read. They should go to jail for that. If they had been being overseen by the school board maybe somebody would have caught this grave injustice to these kids by now.

I think the only ppl who fear regulation are the ppl who are doing something wrong or doing nothing at all and don't want to be caught.

I sure don't want the state telling me what kind of curriculum I have to use or how many hours a day I have to homeschool my kids but slight regulation is needed to keep ppl from doing what OP's friend is doing to her kids. Or not doing should I say.

Well first off, thank you for insinuating that I don't want to be accountable for homeschooling my children and that I'm doing something wrong and am thusly afraid to be caught. Awfully kind of you to make such assumptions.

Secondly, if Texas started requiring standardized testing we would definitely start seeking a job transfer for my husband to a more homeschool friendly state. I have absolutely no qualms about the state knowing what and how I teach my children - I am a devoted teacher and hold my children to very high academic standards. What I do have a problem with is forcing my children to take standardized tests that are meaningless and cause undo stress and anxiety for the children who are taking them and they certainly don't provide any reliable gauge as to how well my child is learning at home. For instance, if said test asked my 5th grader about recent American history - he would know very little because we haven't covered that yet. But if it asked him about ancient history or early American history - he'd pass with flying colors because we've covered those subjects in depth. Subjecting homeschoolers to tests that were written to go along side public school curriculum is asinine and a waste of everyone's time.

 

[usd2bmd]

No, this is a common misconception about homeschooling. In some states, like Texas (hallelujah!), homeschoolers are not required to report anything to anyone and are not required to take any standardized tests.

Homeschooling laws vary from state to state - some states being very controlling and some being completely hands off. We, as a homeschooling family, would never chose to live anywhere but a hands off state.

So the state has no idea if you are actually teaching your children? I don't mean to offend anyone, but how do you know that you are properly preparing them for higher education I assume that is your/their goal) if you don't know that they are a the same level as their peers in a traditional school environment? I think those that choose to home school their children (for the most part) deserve a lot of respect. But if there is no governing body, you can say that you are homeschooling and just not send them.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...So, if CPS ever showed up on the door of a TX homeschooler, they would only have to prove that they're teaching their children math, reading, spelling, grammar, and good citizenship. If they can't prove that, then the state can go after them.

So, if they showed up and a 9 year old could not read (assuming no disabilities), the state would go after them, right? I only ask because I want to understand. I want parents to have a right to self-educate their children in whatever manner they so choose - but only as long as they actually meet the educational requirements of the children.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Would this school be considered "unschooling" ?? I have heard that it has a high success rate:

http://www.sudval.org/

Yes. But part of their description is respect. So anarchy such as the mom in the OP is experiencing would not be tolerated for very long. It may be a similar school I read about, but the students would determine if the OP's son could be a student any more if be was totally refusing to do anything at all. In a way, peer pressure would help influence the outcome of the students. They don't get to run amok.

I am not sure what defInes success for that school or how their students compare to the rest of the state or nation.

 

[tink_lover]

No, this is a common misconception about homeschooling. In some states, like Texas (hallelujah!), homeschoolers are not required to report anything to anyone and are not required to take any standardized tests.

Homeschooling laws vary from state to state - some states being very controlling and some being completely hands off. We, as a homeschooling family, would never chose to live anywhere but a hands off state.

I don't think my quoting is working, but I was curious about this. Guess what state my family member was unschooling in? They started with the guise they were homeschooling but then became quite open with what was really happening. The thing is they are moving to a new state. I wonder what the new rules are for the new state....

 

[knitster]

So the state has no idea if you are actually teaching your children? I don't mean to offend anyone, but how do you know that you are properly preparing them for higher education I assume that is your/their goal) if you don't know that they are a the same level as their peers in a traditional school environment? I think those that choose to home school their children (for the most part) deserve a lot of respect. But if there is no governing body, you can say that you are homeschooling and just not send them.

How do I personally know that I'm preparing them for higher education? Because I research and select my curriculum based on it's academic merits and because my husband holds a masters degree in education and is a former university professor. I think we've got a handle on what our kids should know by the time they leave our home.

However, I in no way hold my kids to public school timelines and standards. In some areas, my kids far surpass their public schooled peers and in some areas they are far behind their public schooled peers, simply because of the timeline we chose to teach on. But rest assured, at the end of the day they'll know what they need to know, they just might learn it at a different age than every one else - be that younger or older than the 'norm'.

So, if they showed up and a 9 year old could not read (assuming no disabilities), the state would go after them, right? I only ask because I want to understand. I want parents to have a right to self-educate their children in whatever manner they so choose - but only as long as they actually meet the educational requirements of the children.

Absolutely. I can't fathom the state turning a blind eye to a 9 year old who has not been taught to read while supposedly being homeschooled.

 

[Ciao Mickey]

There is nothing to admire in this situation. She has created an environment that is terrible and allows her kids to run the show. Not only is she creating kids that will have little chance for success in life, she is destroying her marriage. Her husband also has to take some responsibility for this travesty as well.

I agree with this.

Everyone is blaming the mother, but where is the father in all of this? He has an equal responsibility to his kids to see that they get a proper education.

I feel so sad for those kids. If they can't read then how will they ever know how much they don't know?

 

[knitster]

I don't think my quoting is working, but I was curious about this. Guess what state my family member was unschooling in? They started with the guise they were homeschooling but then became quite open with what was really happening. The thing is they are moving to a new state. I wonder what the new rules are for the new state....

A quick google search can tell you the homeschooling laws of each individual states. TX and AK are the most hands off and I believe NY and PA are the most controlling, though I could be wrong about that.

 

[SaraJayne]

No, this is a common misconception about homeschooling. In some states, like Texas (hallelujah!), homeschoolers are not required to report anything to anyone and are not required to take any standardized tests.

Homeschooling laws vary from state to state - some states being very controlling and some being completely hands off. We, as a homeschooling family, would never chose to live anywhere but a hands off state.

So you'd rather live where there is no accountability for your children's education??

I wish every single state in the country had a law mandating homeschoolers were required to prove they are actually educating their children.

 

[knitster]

So you'd rather live where there is no accountability for your children's education??

I answered that question in a previous post, but I'll copy and paste it here as well.

Well first off, thank you for insinuating that I don't want to be accountable for homeschooling my children and that I'm doing something wrong and am thusly afraid to be caught. Awfully kind of you to make such assumptions.

Secondly, if Texas started requiring standardized testing we would definitely start seeking a job transfer for my husband to a more homeschool friendly state. I have absolutely no qualms about the state knowing what and how I teach my children - I am a devoted teacher and hold my children to very high academic standards. What I do have a problem with is forcing my children to take standardized tests that are meaningless and cause undo stress and anxiety for the children who are taking them and they certainly don't provide any reliable gauge as to how well my child is learning at home. For instance, if said test asked my 5th grader about recent American history - he would know very little because we haven't covered that yet. But if it asked him about ancient history or early American history - he'd pass with flying colors because we've covered those subjects in depth. Subjecting homeschoolers to tests that were written to go along side public school curriculum is asinine and a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Question - if you knew of a "homeschooling" parent who was not teaching their children at all, what would be your options if the state doesn't regulate it in any way?

Well, if she had a curriculum she were using, she might be a member of HSLDA which is staffed with attorneys that would help her should someone report her.

But in states with pretty much no oversight, you could report them. Likely--she will not be a member of HSLDA as they do not accept families who consider themselves unschoolers.

So while they may not have any oversight--if one was really concerned, they would simply let CPS know. Whether or not the do anything due to the law, I would have no idea.

But it takes quite a bit to prove an abusive situation.

For the 1% of morons in society who do this to their children, I would not want to be punished with more laws.

Bottom line--in a state with 100% freedom to homeschoolers (no filing intent, no regular reporting, no requirements)--you have no recourse.

 

[SaraJayne]

I answered that question in a previous post, but I'll copy and paste it here as well.

So your answer is yes, you don't want to live some where you are accountable for your children's education.

 

[knitster]

I find it interesting that people think that academic accountability = state involvement. I homeschool my children because I want *better* for them than what the state can give them. If I had to hold to the public school standards for my kids, I would be doing them a disservice because I go above and beyond what they would receive in a public school setting.

My accountability for my kid's education comes from my family and myself - we are all much more invested in their lives and how well they turn out than any school board member or congressman/woman will ever be.

 

[knitster]

So your answer is yes, you don't want to live some where you are accountable for your children's education.

Nope. My answer is yes - I do not want to live where my children would be subjected to inane standardized testing, but no - I would not have a problem living where I would be required to report my kid's transcripts, attendance, etc to the state, thereby being accountable to them.

 

[Imzadi]

She's a good mom

Stop saying she is a good mom. Her intention may be in the right place, but she is NOT a good mom by her actions.

she's totally against phonics because it's "teaching" them. She's 100% sure that they'll just pick up reading when they're ready.

Do these children really, truly learn enough on their own without being "taught"?

There are some things people can ONLY pick up by sitting down, spending the time it takes to learn and practice skills, memorize, drill and have the discipline to follow through. No one is sitting down with these kids and TEACHING them reading, phonics or math. There is no other way to just "pick them up," unless the children have photographic memories, which they haven't exhibited.

Even musicians who "picked up" a musical instrument and play by ear have to sit down, practice and learn how to play what they want to play. It doesn't happen by osmosis. There are certain steps to learning.

In my opinion, someone who has a NINE YEAR OLD child who can't read should have child protective services called on her. That is neglect and borderline abuse.

I hope that husband who is fed up with his wife, divorces her and takes her to court and tells the judge that his kids can't even read because the mom refuses to teach them or let them go to school and he takes the kids away from her. If I knew her, I would turn her in myself.

Yes, the husband getting divorced and getting sole custody may be the only hope for these children to get some real teaching in a disciplined environment.

Ok, this is scary.

I wouldn't call the authorities on her, though. Just couldn;t do it. She "reports" to the state as a homeschooler.

Aisling, I truly mean this in a caring way, I know you care about your friend and truly love her. But you are an adult here in this situation. You have to put them first. as the adult, they depend on the adults to take charge and do what's in their best welfare.

"It takes a village to raise a child," is more than just a platitude. Those children are being neglected and mentally abused, in a way. If your dear friend was physically abusing and beating them, wouldn't you feel compelled to call the authorities and report her? Especially when you know she is lying to the authorities about what she is doing?

Is this friend in NY? NY has some of the strictest homeschooling laws in the country so I am really surprised that she can get away with this unless she is just absolutely lying through her teeth and/or committing fraud in regards to the required annual assessment and other requirements.

Not only homeschooling, but some of the strictest (regular school) educational laws and standards. We STILL have the NYS Regents exams, which 98% of the country does not. It is about a standardization of learning to make sure ALL NYS children are competitive wherever they go afterward.

These children will be so behind the learning curve if they do not have an intervention SOON. They are so far behind already. I can't see either of them getting into a SUNY college, forget a private college.

Maybe they won't want to go to college since they are raised to be so lazy and undisciplined. But, they won't even be competitive for basic, low wage jobs. Especially in NYC. Even menial jobs which go to immigrants, they can at least read in their own native languages and get info and instructions in their native languages by others who speak and WRITE in the same language. That is why certain jobs go to certain minorities. They help each other to get & keep the jobs.

Who will be helping these illiterate children turned illiterate adults? Who will be their peers? Other unemployable people?

After being hit with a ton of bricks posts about reporting her, I took a breather and decided to just show her this thread. If it scares her half as much as it is scaring me, she'll do some thinking. It never even occurred to me that people would be wanting to report her to the authorities. I was looking for some hard criticism of the thing to show her. I had no idea it could be so serious as someone reporting her.

Thank you for your posts. Leaving the thread now.

I'm sorry this thread is hitting you so hard. Just remember, you asked to help the children get the real advantages in life they need. Not illusory, in theory ideas. IF your friend was actually teaching her children well, this would have been a whole different thread. You are doing the right thing.