Any Unschoolers here who ditched that method?

[DebIreland]

You MOST CERTAINLY hijacked this thread and made it about your qualifications and your and your husbands education and not wanting regulations on homeschool. NO matter what subject was being discussed you have felt the need to respond to almost everybody who had something to say whether they were speaking to you or not. Every single PAGE of this thread has at least one post from you, sometimes 3 or 4 per page.

One would deduce that you have taken this thread on as a personal mission. And you are VERY defensive. THAT seems on the odd side to me.

I have never heard someone refer to their own degree, husband's degree, their own IQ, their ability to be in Mensa. It seems like you have a REAL NEED to let the world know how smart you and your family are.

I've read the whole thread and I don't think she hijacked the thread at all. She joined in the debate like many others and she answered people's questions and defended her stance. No doubt she's proud of her children and proud of their schooling, like many many other parents. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[cornflake]

I wasn't sure and as I said it was from a link I found. It wasn't an accusation towards you. Maybe the link I copied had the clauses wrong. Definitely not freedom of the press.

So I give up...
Freedom of Religion.

Just googled again, looked at a California summary of homeschool law and the case citation for that is: 62 Wisconsin v. Yoder (1972) 406 U.S. 205. Perhaps that is relevant?

Another case cited in that particular article I located is this regarding Freedom of Expression: West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette (1943) 319 U.S. 624, 642. The statement made (from the reference based on their interpretation of the case): " The first amendment protects us from government invasion of the "sphere of intellect and spirit . . . ."65 One theory here would be that, for some parents, homeschooling is an expression of their fundamental (non-religious) beliefs about parenting, education and the state."

Seriously--if you google for constitutional basis for homeschooling, you can find much information that goes beyond Wikipedia with very complete explanations with source citation. Some site more cases than others. The original one I found (on my iPhone) mentioned all the applicable amendments but then only mentioned 2 cases. The latest link has footnotes listing many more cases.

I can PM you the latest link I found if you would like.

Thanks, heh. I really could not figure out how in the world you were suddenly throwing freedom of the press into things.

Yoder is indeed a First Amendment case, and so are, I'm sure, some homeschooling cases that have been brought - I'd wager because mostly, like Yoder, they're specifically outside the 'norm.'

My issue here is that that is not and was not used as a legal justification for homeschooling - it's a justification for those people to do what they do because of their beliefs. Which is not to say it doesn't somewhat carry, in the sense that in general, people don't check into the belief systems (not religions, I mean the driving forces behind, whether it be a religion or an agrarian or gypsy lifestyle or pure, unadulterated nuttiness) of homeschoolers.

Hence, that's not the basis for the legality of homeschooling or private schooling in general. Like, for instance, a court may allow the killing of an animal by nonstandard methods, as part of a religious ceremony. That doesn't convey a blanket acceptance of the method for general use, if you see what I'm saying. As in Yoder, that case doesn't convey on you, presuming you're not Amish and on an extended Rumspringa, the right to remove your child from schooling of all kinds in 8th grade with no questions asked as to their further schooling or lack thereof. The Amish are exempt from certain tax responsibilities as well, iirc, doesn't mean we are. All decisions aren't applicable to all classes by virtue of the decision existing.

As well, there were people in the thread on about freedom of speech, which makes no sense whatsoever, which is what originally piqued my interest. I can see people conveying freedom of religion that way in their minds - speech, ya lost me.

 

[Debbie7452]

It seems that students need a certain number of years of math for college. How high of math that must be will depend on the college. But generally Alg I/II and Geometry would satisfy that.

I can't recall what the SAT covers on the math, though. Is it only through Geometry and Algebra II?

ETA: We are tracking our kids through Pre-calculus. I just cannot remember what the SAT covers.

My DD told me the calculus she had already had in her Junior year really helped her on the SAT, so there's def. pre-calc on the test. She is two years ahead in Math...so we ran out of Math classes. She stretched Calculus into 2 years (would be a nightmare for me, but she loves it!)

 

[knitster]

I've read the whole thread and I don't think she hijacked the thread at all. She joined in the debate like many others and she answered people's questions and defended her stance. No doubt she's proud of her children and proud of their schooling, like many many other parents. Nothing wrong with that.

I would have to disagree. I caught the Mensa comment on another thread. Someone else brought it up.

She mentioned it on this thread because someone got their panties in a twist over the misuse of homonyms and how that made those who made them unqualified to homeschool. She did not bring them up just to brag. She brought them up because someone made a particular statement that people who made such errors were not qualified to homeschool.

I and a few posters mentioned as well what our "credentials" were--but everyone is focusing on this one poster.

She is posting because it is something she believes in. A thread on unschooling has never remained solely about unschooling as many posters who are troubled by people mentioned in the OP tend to believe that all homeschoolers must be like that and that is why homeschooling is bad and should have stronger restrictions.

The OP did not like that people wanted her to report the family and those of use who are familiar with homeschooling and those (not me) who understand unschooling (oops--said the wrong one, now fixed) tried to explain that this mom doesn't seem to be doing that. Then one or two chimed in and said it was fine.

I don't necessarily agree with everything posted--but there is fine line between making a law because there is chaos and making a law because there is 1 idiot in a thousand who is ruining their kids.

I am not quite sure why posters have focused on this one poster when others have stated very similar things.

And those who have not noticed the few statements of disrespect, probably don't notice since they disagree with whom that disrespect was aimed.

Thank you. I'm more than willing to take responsibility for my actions when I'm snarky, defensive, quick to judge, etc and I most definitely admit to being hyper involved in this discussion. But I do not think it's fair to "blame" me for the discussion as a whole, not at all.

 

[cornflake]

The SAT I has very few, generally quite minor trig questions. Like a couple function questions or maybe a parabola graph asking you to pick the graph of the reciprocal or something. They tend not to even ask anything involving SIN, etc.

It's mostly basic algebra and geometry.

The SAT II Math2 has actual trig/pre calc on it, but the SAT I and SAT II Math1 don't.

 

[Buckalew11]

I can understand where knitster is coming from.

Out of all the things in my life, homeschooling is the one thing that people feel free to comment on and be very negative and emotional about. When we decided to homeschool, I thought some of my clients were going to have a stroke. I had people yell at me, try to convince me in a very demanding way not to do it, etc. etc. etc. It was pretty awful.
These were people who knew nothing about homeschooling, for the most part. The people that were the rudest to me were people from my church. THAT was a surprise for me.

That said, it makes you defensive.

 

[skater]

I can understand where knitster is coming from.

Out of all the things in my life, homeschooling is the one thing that people feel free to comment on and be very negative and emotional about. When we decided to homeschool, I thought some of my clients were going to have a stroke. I had people yell at me, try to convince me in a very demanding way not to do it, etc. etc. etc. It was pretty awful.
These were people who knew nothing about homeschooling, for the most part. The people that were the rudest to me were people from my church. THAT was a surprise for me.

That said, it makes you defensive.

Very true. When we first started, I couldn't believe that people felt that they had a right to make the comments they did. I don't think they would have said nearly as much if I were having an affair or drinking all the time . The grandparents were all upset, although I understand that they were just worried about their grandkids. Now, those same grandparents are upset that one of our children may decide to go to public high school next year. They've seen the "proof" that it works. They've seen that all their fears were not the truth. They understand that my chidren are socialized, intelligent, and independent thinkers. What's not to like ?

I still get occasional comments, but they're much more subtle than they used to be. It doesn't usually bother me anymore .

 

[punkin]

I don't want to get into this debate, but I would like to give your friend something concrete to do. Before I was a SAHM, I was a teacher. I know in most homeschooling, the parents get a set curriculum. I only know about "unschooling" from these boards, but I assume it is supposed to be the children leading the curriculum. I wrote my own curriculum a lot when I taught, and I believe that is what your friend has got to do. She cannot allow her children to not read and write.

Let's say that the 9 year old is interested in turtles. She needs to find every easy reader she can about turtles and start reading with him/her. She needs to make math problems around turtles, etc. Research shows that only a small percentage of kids learn to read well without phonics. Maybe she has one in that small percentage and they will learn to read by memorizing chunks of words. However, it is my guess, she is going to have to incorporate phonics into the curriculum.

When they are on their field trips, the children should be paying and figuring out much money to spend, miles to get there, how much time they have, etc. Sneak in math facts with car games.

I really wish her the best of luck. I realize that for some reason she doesn't trust teachers, but most of us love children, love what we do, and want the best for every child.

This is an accurate description of unschooling as I understand it. What OP described is a lazy parent. It is supposed to be child-led learning not child-led doing whatever the heck the kid wants. Very few people are actually equipped to unschool. It's a lot easier to send your child off to school (which is why that's what I do).

 

[hambirg]

Fascinating...and I am sure when it comes to education, Cornflake would agree with you. But I have a difficult time when folks such as he place such credence on the expertise and education of teachers to call homeschooling unsafe while he sat and complained about the ridiculousness of what occurred in NYC for Hurricane Irene.

On one hand, Anecdotes were enough to determine scientists were wrong and things would be safe. On the other hand, when it comes to children, facts regarding homeschooling are without merit and only experts should be trusted to teach children.

Science seems to be an area of flexibility for him.

Folks won't trust anecdotes to support someone elae's opinion but are fine accepting anecdotes to dispute the opinions of others.

I simply don't get that.

Evidently--my uilization of videos is a disservice and dangerous for my children. Who knew? I wonder how they perform well on their standardized tests then. And what about kids enrolled in state sponsored online school. The states thought it was a good idea.

Science does support homeschooling. Teachers take coursework to learn how to deal with a classroom of kids. I have been an expert on my kids since they were born. When I detect a weakness that is beyond my skill, we consult experts to address the issue.

I am concerned mom in the Op does not do that. But I am not interested in an anecdote of poor performance restricting my right to homeschool anymore than I would use Columbine as an example of a daily activity at schools across the country.

I don't have a problem with homeschooling at all. I think the major advantage is class size. If I were able to teach my kids at home. . .3:1 ratio, that would be a HUGE advantage. Science has proven that that and knowing the learner, like a parent would, is advantageous to the learner.

I was specifically addressing this "unschooling." I don't think the reasoning behind is has been proven. The science isn't there.

Like anything, there are plus sides and down sides. I think in general homeschooling has come along way. Of course, there are still those that don't really do it or do it correctly, but for the most part, if done well and with the resources that are available now, it can work out very well.

I do think all the education ps teachers are required to have is not all for not. The frustration that I had, as a teacher, is that I think we know an awful lot about how people learn, but that hasn't translated well into the classroom. Teachers struggle with this all the time. I would LOVE to see that research utilized more in the school setting. After all, teachers want what works without all the other stuff getting in the way. I'm a big fan of direct instruction. I know it works. I've seen it work. But apparently it's fallen out of favor. . .for exactly the reasons behind this "unschooling" philosophy.

 

[Aisling]

Aisling,
I know that you have backed away from this thread now.
And, I totally agree that, now that you have input, great move!

Oh, yes, I'm still reading, just not commenting anymore since my friend is also reading this thread now. We've been talking about all that's being said here.

 

[Colleen27]

I can't recall what the SAT covers on the math, though. Is it only through Geometry and Algebra II?

I'm not sure. It has probably changed since I took it because it was still the 1600pt scale back then, but in '97 there wasn't anything more advanced than trig and IIRC the trig questions were very basic (the math part was the source of much stress for me, so I remember a bit of it ). I think I would recall if there was much trig or any pre-calc/calc because I was halfway through first-semester trig and hadn't taken any pre-calc yet when I took the test, so that would have been that worst fear, OMG how am I supposed to do this?! material for me.

 

[jodifla]

I never said that.

Additionally, I have said that I am concerned for the children in the OP.

I also disagree with the state directing me via regulations on what to feed my child. I simply brought it up as a point.

I am for minimal homeschooling regulation, not the complete absence of it.

I am not okay with being told what I must teach my child as, for example, the state of MD dictates. We have our curriculum that we carefully researched. We have tested since the beginning and it proven our selections to be much more than adequate. I have my children's best interests at heart and don't need a state to tell me that my child must learn ______ in 4th grade history so that they can vouch that my child is learning history.


My thoughs on writing would make your head spin. Example: They learn the creative separate from the physical act of writing via dictation and copy work.

I agree. I'm not a fan of all the standardized testing either. I am a fan of progress testing, to see how a child has learned and advanced throughout the year.

It does seem like we are moving toward a "national" curriculum, for better or worse.

I think homeschoolers need some accountability, but not pages and pages of it.

 

[hambirg]

For anyone who wants a good ol' laugh, I was curious so I went and had a browse though an unschooling forum. Oh my goodness. There are some seriously messed up and ineffectual parents there. Apparently part of unschooling is allowing an unrestricted diet - kids can eat whatever they want, whenever they want. One guy is talking about how he can't afford to buy all the sweets his child keeps asking for and he's worried that he might hurt the kids feelings if he says no to his requests. Oh lord, you couldn't make this crap up. For anyone interested here is that thread: http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/the-cost-of-unrestricting-food

That's just frightening!!!!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I agree. I'm not a fan of all the standardized testing either. I am a fan of progress testing, to see how a child has learned and advanced throughout the year.

It does seem like we are moving toward a "national" curriculum, for better or worse.

I think homeschoolers need some accountability, but not pages and pages of it.

On that, we agree!

 

[castleview]

The same thing that happens to the kids who are failed by public and private schools, I suppose. They either work hard and make it up as young adults/in college, or they live with the consequences of a substandard education.

I get tired of hearing people say a school (public or private) failed them. I've seen tons of schools that are deemed "failing" turn out well-prepared, college bound students. Bet you know the difference between those kids and kids that failed, right? PARENTS

 

[Buckalew11]

Very true. When we first started, I couldn't believe that people felt that they had a right to make the comments they did. I don't think they would have said nearly as much if I were having an affair or drinking all the time . The grandparents were all upset, although I understand that they were just worried about their grandkids. Now, those same grandparents are upset that one of our children may decide to go to public high school next year. They've seen the "proof" that it works. They've seen that all their fears were not the truth. They understand that my chidren are socialized, intelligent, and independent thinkers. What's not to like ?

I still get occasional comments, but they're much more subtle than they used to be. It doesn't usually bother me anymore .

I still get them also (not as much) but I am amazed at how much better I handle it these days compared to in the beginning. I remember people saying, "Doesn;t she *want* to go to college?!?!" This kid's been dreaming of college since 2nd grade--I kid you not. It is an obsession!

 

[brytorlyn]

Not sure if this was mentioned but a recent study here in Canada showed the following findings....

" Researchers found that the public-school kids tested at or above their grade levels, but home-schooled children tested even higher than that — about a half-grade higher in math and 2.2 grades in reading, compared with the traditionally educated children.

Children in the unstructured home-schooling group, however, performed the worst across all seven academic measures."

 

[humboldthny]

You all seem to just being tossing out the fact that some (most?) of the greatest people in history were homeschooled - they didn't sit in a classroom for 8 hours a day and learn how to live life by the ringing of a bell and they managed to do just fine.

To name a few...

OK...I've got lots of friends who homeschool, and that's all well and good. But what is it with this list that is always trotted out in defense of homeschooling? Of course a lot of those people were 'homeschooled' - many of them were born and educated before the advent of the modern educational system. Not to mention for every person on that list there are scores of successful people who were educated in public schools, private schools, etc.....

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Not sure if this was mentioned but a recent study here in Canada showed the following findings....

" Researchers found that the public-school kids tested at or above their grade levels, but home-schooled children tested even higher than that — about a half-grade higher in math and 2.2 grades in reading, compared with the traditionally educated children.

Children in the unstructured home-schooling group, however, performed the worst across all seven academic measures."

How was that defined, precisely?

I ask, because although I would not "un"school...I have known unschoolers who were actually quite structured. They just didn't follow a curriculum and use textbooks. But there was organization to their "un" schooling.

Clearly in an unstructured setting, the risk is greater that chaos will reign and learning won't take place in an adequate manner.

But that is true of any unstructured activity. Goals are an important thing and if you don't have them, you certainly will not meet them.

 

[humboldthny]

Not sure if this was mentioned but a recent study here in Canada showed the following findings....

" Researchers found that the public-school kids tested at or above their grade levels, but home-schooled children tested even higher than that — about a half-grade higher in math and 2.2 grades in reading, compared with the traditionally educated children.

Children in the unstructured home-schooling group, however, performed the worst across all seven academic measures."

Those kind of results have nothing to do with whether you home-school or not, it has to do with instruction...My dd's school (and the other charter and private schools affiliated with it, as well as a number of other charters and private schools in our area) consistently have most children performing at least year or more ahead of their grade level.