Any thoughts on point charts for Lakeshore Lodge

[Tatebeck]

Since there are no existing points to book it (unlike the Poly Tower) I think it will have pretty good availability until at least it is sold out. And with how large it is it will probably have pretty good availability after that as well. I will be willing to try it out at least once myself.

ETA: I guess there could be some points already available to book it if they do something weird with the trust. But even if they do that and roll in LL with CFW, so few of those cabin points have sold that I think my point will still stand lol

 

[kilik64]

Since there are no existing points to book it (unlike the Poly Tower) I think it will have pretty good availability until at least it is sold out. And with how large it is it will probably have pretty good availability after that as well. I will be willing to try it out at least once myself.

ETA: I guess there could be some points already available to book it if they do something weird with the trust. But even if they do that and roll in LL with CFW, so few of those cabin points have sold that I think my point will still stand lol

Hey now there are dozens of CFW owners.

DOZENS.

 

[Brian Noble]

The Few. The Proud. The Cabiners.

(Cabinizens? Cabinae?)

 

[Patmcpsu]

The Cabins at Fort Wilderness and Disney Lakeshore Lodge are two different resorts. Why are people talking like they're going to be combined?

Because "If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.” The cabins are not selling at current prices, and I can't see them being remaining unsold until contract expiry*. With the status quo being a dead end, Disney has three options:

1. Lower the contract cost to clearance prices.
2. Consolidate the cabins with Lakeshore Lodge.
3. Give up on the timeshare model and operate the unsold cabins as a hotel.

If anyone has credible alternatives, I would like to hear them.

Given the three options listed above, I see option two being the most palatable to Disney management.

*I am aware that if you extrapolate pervious sales, the cabins would sell out within 50 years, but this is a niche product with a finite number of niche customers. The pace will slow as the niche customers make their purchases. If so, sales wouldn't follow a linear rate.

 

[WinterSolider]

If anyone has credible alternatives, I would like to hear them.

Aulani model.

Continue to sell them, slowly, and sell the nights to cash guests in the mean time.

Just like Aulani, the cabins were always going to be a niche product.

 

[The Jackal]

I expect point charts below RIV. Not much lower but little. I really hope for owners sake they don’t build the cabins there on the water. They will be a lot of points, and cause more demand on studios. I don’t expect the dues for the pre existing cabins to drop any. There are huge logistical issues that keeps it high.

 

[mkatsy]

Literally the only point of the trust is that the cabins are trailers. Trailers are not real property, they are personal property, and you can't sell a deeded real estate interest to personal property.

That's it. Every other conspiracy theory about the trust is bullcrap.

Not in the state of Florida. Technically there is a way to register a trailer as real property. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s not impossible. The trailer must be affixed to the ground with plumbing if there are multiple owners on the deed of the trailer, only ONE name needs to go on the land. here’s the issue: one of the owners of the trailer (obviously Disney Development) needs to be named on the deed to the leasehold land. If you don’t mind doing that you’ve got real property and deeded trailers. If those cabins are considered manufactured homes, IDK if they would qualify. But manufactured homes are allowed to be classified as real property on leasehold land as long as there is 30 years left at installation.

 

[CarolynFH]

The new Cabins at Ft. Wilderness are not trailers. There are no wheels underneath, and they were constructed on site with prefab walls, etc. They are not portable like the old ones were, that were indeed trucked away intact (and sold).

There are some photos in various threads on the Camping at Disney World forum, such as this one:
Post in thread 'Any word or any prep work being done for new DVC cabins?'
https://www.disboards.com/threads/a...done-for-new-dvc-cabins.3929532/post-65881772
There are other threads containing construction photos showing more clearly that they are not trailers but instead are site built.

 

[mkatsy]

The new Cabins at Ft. Wilderness are not trailers. There are no wheels underneath, and they were constructed on site with prefab walls, etc. They are not portable like the old ones were, that were indeed trucked away intact (and sold).

There are some photos in various threads on the Camping at Disney World forum, such as this one:
Post in thread 'Any word or any prep work being done for new DVC cabins?'
https://www.disboards.com/threads/a...done-for-new-dvc-cabins.3929532/post-65881772
There are other threads containing construction photos showing more clearly that they are not trailers but instead are site built.

Well, this is going to blow some of your minds but here we go: In the state of Florida manufactured homes on leasehold land can (and do) exist as condominium associations. Granted they are rare BUT central Florida has one right here in Apopka, Florida. The legal description of the property is: YOGI BEARS JELLYSTONE PARK. They figured it out https://www.1lookflorida.com/listin.../homes-with-golf-carts-ok-community-features/

 

[Girlstar30]

Well, this is going to blow some of your minds but here we go: In the state of Florida manufactured homes on leasehold land can (and do) exist as condominium associations. Granted they are rare BUT central Florida has one right here in Apopka, Florida. The legal description of the property is: YOGI BEARS JELLYSTONE PARK. They figured it out https://www.1lookflorida.com/listin.../homes-with-golf-carts-ok-community-features/

So now we can all freak out about the trust again

 

[mkatsy]

So now we can all freak out about the trust again

nah … PVB angst took too much out me. I just think, sometimes, people underestimate how bizarre Florida actually is.

 

[WinterSolider]

Not in the state of Florida. Technically there is a way to register a trailer as real property. I’m not saying it’s easy, but it’s not impossible. The trailer must be affixed to the ground with plumbing if there are multiple owners on the deed of the trailer, only ONE name needs to go on the land. here’s the issue: one of the owners of the trailer (obviously Disney Development) needs to be named on the deed to the leasehold land. If you don’t mind doing that you’ve got real property and deeded trailers. If those cabins are considered manufactured homes, IDK if they would qualify. But manufactured homes are allowed to be classified as real property on leasehold land as long as there is 30 years left at installation.

Sigh.

Obviously my point was not about what might technically be possible if you squint and strain and stretch the boundaries of Florida real estate and timeshare law. My point is that the cabins are *unusual and unique* within the portfolio of DVC accommodations and whether it was because it was simply more convenient or because there were literally no other legal avenues, Disney created the trust structure specifically for the cabins. The trust does not indicate some relaunch of a new DVC 2.0 that looks materially different to owners. Maybe the nuts and bolts look different under the hood to the attorneys and tax accountants, but from the normal member's perspective, nothing looks different at 11 months, 7 months, Membership Extras, etc. It's just a normal, resale-restricted resort just like Riviera.

"The cabins are weird an Disney had literally no choice but to create the trust" might be too strong. But "the cabins are weird and therefore Disney chose to create the trust" makes the same point as far as the membership is concerned.

 

[WinterSolider]

Well, this is going to blow some of your minds but here we go: In the state of Florida manufactured homes on leasehold land can (and do) exist as condominium associations. Granted they are rare BUT central Florida has one right here in Apopka, Florida. The legal description of the property is: YOGI BEARS JELLYSTONE PARK. They figured it out https://www.1lookflorida.com/listin.../homes-with-golf-carts-ok-community-features/

But what happens when the product you're selling has a 50 year contract and 15 years into the contract the manufactured homes need to be *completely replaced*? That's why they're still trailer-like even if they're not legally designated as trailers.

The owners of a CFW contract will have the right to occupy some replacement cabin-like structure in the year 2060, long after this first batch of cabins have been auctioned off or sent to a landfill.

This is not like a resort building that gets periodically refurbished. The piece of property that serves as accomodations at Fort Wilderness needs to be periodically completely replaced.

 

[Cyberc1978]

This is not like a resort building that gets periodically refurbished. The piece of property that serves as accomodations at Fort Wilderness needs to be periodically completely replaced.

I wonder if that I one of the reasons why the dues are so high ?

 

[mkatsy]

Sigh.

Obviously my point was not about what might technically be possible if you squint and strain and stretch the boundaries of Florida real estate and timeshare law. My point is that the cabins are *unusual and unique* within the portfolio of DVC accommodations and whether it was because it was simply more convenient or because there were literally no other legal avenues, Disney created the trust structure specifically for the cabins. The trust does not indicate some relaunch of a new DVC 2.0 that looks materially different to owners. Maybe the nuts and bolts look different under the hood to the attorneys and tax accountants, but from the normal member's perspective, nothing looks different at 11 months, 7 months, Membership Extras, etc. It's just a normal, resale-restricted resort just like Riviera.

"The cabins are weird a Disney had literally no choice but to create the trust" might be too strong. But "the cabins are weird and therefore Disney chose to create the trust" makes the same point as far as the membership is concerned.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. In the early 1980’s SunResorts Inc. had an idea to turn a campground in Apopka Florida into a timeshare. So they filed articles of incorporation and turned the place into a condominium. At some point they added the trailers. It’s difficult to know what happened because the comptroller has pages and pages of information. Lawsuits and drama erupted, they either lost or surrendered the “Yogi Bear” franchise, and now it’s residential. I honestly don’t even care that much about the trust, because I’m not a huge fan of the cabins.

 

[WinterSolider]

I wonder if that I one of the reasons why the dues are so high ?

I think the dues are high because the points-per-square-foot is so low. Similar to Old Key West.

Fewer points per night means fewer points in the system paying dues, so even if maintenance costs were identical, dues-per-point would be higher.

 

[Brian Noble]

So now we can all freak out about the trust again

The simplest explanation (and IMO the most likely) is that trust ownerships that are in default are much easier to reclaim, even compared to Florida's non-judicial foreclosure process. I also find the "they are trailers and it is tricky" argument compelling. From the buyer's POV, the trust is identical to a deeded leashold in the day-to-day, so why not do the easy thing?

So far, of course. But I don't see a reason why that is going to change other than Change Could Happen.

 

[CarolynFH]

The simplest explanation (and IMO the most likely) is that trust ownerships that are in default are much easier to reclaim, even compared to Florida's non-judicial foreclosure process. I also find the "they are trailers and it is tricky" argument compelling. From the buyer's POV, the trust is identical to a deeded leashold in the day-to-day, so why not do the easy thing?

So far, of course. But I don't see a reason why that is going to change other than Change Could Happen.

I think that Disney decided a timeshare trust similar to Marriott’s was easier to administer and control than a condominium association timeshare model. And didn’t they hire a former Marriott executive?

As you say, it’s easier to reclaim an ownership that’s in default, plus they don’t have to deal with such things as the ownerships expiring because the land leasehold is expiring; they can simply state that the buyer’s membership in the trust expires on whatever date.

And I fully agree that the trust won’t make any big difference to us in terms of booking or our day to day “DVC life.”

 

[DonkeyHoTay]

And I fully agree that the trust won’t make any big difference to us in terms of booking or our day to day “DVC life.”

I have often wondered if the Trust format is really a giant nothing-burger.

 

[Patmcpsu]

But what happens when the product you're selling has a 50 year contract and 15 years into the contract the manufactured homes need to be *completely replaced*? That's why they're still trailer-like even if they're not legally designated as trailers.

The owners of a CFW contract will have the right to occupy some replacement cabin-like structure in the year 2060, long after this first batch of cabins have been auctioned off or sent to a landfill.

This is not like a resort building that gets periodically refurbished. The piece of property that serves as accomodations at Fort Wilderness needs to be periodically completely replaced.

Coincidently, I just got a letter in the mail saying that, per Florida law, DVC conducted a structural inspection of my home resort and validated that the current maintenance fees are properly amortizing for the long term repairs.

It will be fun when the cabins have their inspections come due, but in the meantime, you have to assume that their (high) maintenance fees are amortizing for the long term repair costs (i.e. ripping the old cabins out and completely replacing them). The owners wouldn't eventually be left cabinless; they paid into the replacement cabins over the course of decades.