An Inconvenient Truth...

For one example of the war on coal power plants, for one thing, these plants are cleaner than ever and are far and few between. Where my area is located, there have been more new power plants built in this area than just about any other part of the US. All but one project was non-coal. Coal plants are far a few between, I will never believe that the hand full of coal plants around the country are causing global warming. That is the same non-sense that took California into a energy crises (that among other things) with the fear that "power plants are going to cause global warming or harm the environment" please, that is extremist, environmentalist whacko alarmist crazy talk.

Yikes!! Yet again, this is some more mis-information. I am not sure where you live...I live in Texas, where our dear governer has proposed MANY new coal plants so that Texas can be free of oil dependency. :confused3 Our main power company, TXU is planning on building 8 coal plants. The thing to remember is there is TWO types of coal. One type is found in the basin of Texas, it is called powder basin coal....it is much more environmentally friendly than heavy lignite coal, which is found pretty much throughout the state of Texas. What TXU is proposing is building 8 heavy lignite plants. The technology exists to make these plants IGCC lignite plants....which means the coal will actually be turned to gas before it is burned, and the CO2 can "someday" be recaptured (the expense of recapturing CO2 makes the process prohibitive right now). However, if you turn heavy lignite to gas before you burn it, you SERIOUSLY decrease the amount of emissions. However, TXU has no plans to make any of the plants IGCC ones. Just another example of us NOT embracing technology that would keep our planet healthier.

The stats on coal plants are simple....there are 150 coal plants being planned in the US right now....worldwide, there are 1000. If those 1000 coal plants are built....not taking into effect ANY other environmental gasses we are putting into the air....those 1000 coal plants will spew out more CO2 than all the other industrialization pollution man has put out in the last 250 years. The 150 coal plants now being planned in the US will increase our CO2 emissions by 10%....I can't believe, in a time when global warming is largely undisputed, that our country is actually considering this.

As for ... "the fear that "power plants are going to cause global warming or harm the environment" please, that is extremist, environmentalist whacko alarmist crazy talk." Take a look at one of my earlier posts where I linked an article about Washington State. Someone posted that volcanoes do more damage than man. The truth is, volcano emissions are less than ONE PERCENT of what man is doing. We ARE harming the environment. To deny that is "whacko alarmist crazy talk".
 
The stats on coal plants are simple....there are 150 coal plants being planned in the US right now....worldwide, there are 1000. If those 1000 coal plants are built....not taking into effect ANY other environmental gasses we are putting into the air....those 1000 coal plants will spew out more CO2 than all the other industrialization pollution man has put out in the last 250 years. The 150 coal plants now being planned in the US will increase our CO2 emissions by 10%....I can't believe, in a time when global warming is largely undisputed, that our country is actually considering this.

Then let's go nuclear instead.
 

I'm not a Vegetarian, but I am more persuaded by this than many of the other gasps of horror:

http://www.vegsoc.org/press/2006/methane.html



Of course, won't us all going veggie just shift the methane production from cows to us?

Another reason to go veggie: a tractor plows the field, a tractor spread manure in the field, the tractor plants the corn. The tractor sprays persticides on the corn, the tractor harvests the corn to feed the cows. The cows grow and go to slaughter, get packaged up and sent to the stores. Repeat the cycle again. It seems like a ridiculas expediture of energy for a steak!
 
Another reason to go veggie: a tractor plows the field, a tractor spread manure in the field, the tractor plants the corn. The tractor sprays persticides on the corn, the tractor harvests the corn to feed the cows. The cows grow and go to slaughter, get packaged up and sent to the stores. Repeat the cycle again. It seems like a ridiculas expediture of energy for a steak!


Well yeah, except if lots of folks went veggie then the way we use crops would change. We wouldn't necessarily farm fewer acres in a different way. Add to that the push for ethanol and I think farming side of it is a wash.
 
/
Yikes!! Yet again, this is some more mis-information. I am not sure where you live...I live in Texas, where our dear governer has proposed MANY new coal plants so that Texas can be free of oil dependency. :confused3 Our main power company, TXU is planning on building 8 coal plants. The thing to remember is there is TWO types of coal. One type is found in the basin of Texas, it is called powder basin coal....it is much more environmentally friendly than heavy lignite coal, which is found pretty much throughout the state of Texas. What TXU is proposing is building 8 heavy lignite plants. The technology exists to make these plants IGCC lignite plants....which means the coal will actually be turned to gas before it is burned, and the CO2 can "someday" be recaptured (the expense of recapturing CO2 makes the process prohibitive right now). However, if you turn heavy lignite to gas before you burn it, you SERIOUSLY decrease the amount of emissions. However, TXU has no plans to make any of the plants IGCC ones. Just another example of us NOT embracing technology that would keep our planet healthier.

The stats on coal plants are simple....there are 150 coal plants being planned in the US right now....worldwide, there are 1000. If those 1000 coal plants are built....not taking into effect ANY other environmental gasses we are putting into the air....those 1000 coal plants will spew out more CO2 than all the other industrialization pollution man has put out in the last 250 years. The 150 coal plants now being planned in the US will increase our CO2 emissions by 10%....I can't believe, in a time when global warming is largely undisputed, that our country is actually considering this.

As for ... "the fear that "power plants are going to cause global warming or harm the environment" please, that is extremist, environmentalist whacko alarmist crazy talk." Take a look at one of my earlier posts where I linked an article about Washington State. Someone posted that volcanoes do more damage than man. The truth is, volcano emissions are less than ONE PERCENT of what man is doing. We ARE harming the environment. To deny that is "whacko alarmist crazy talk".

That's exactly the kind of extremist arguments that I DO NOT believe. Go ahead and believe it if it makes you feel better. I don't and won't and no amount of statistics from egg headed environmentalist anti-energy whackos you throw at me will not make any difference. For every statistic you dig up believe me I could do the same, but I'm not going to continue in this debate, because like the other poster said, those who believe will never be convinced otherwise. I'm going to go back to the more merrier drinking threads and what not.
 
That's exactly the kind of extremist arguments that I DO NOT believe. Go ahead and believe it if it makes you feel better. I don't and won't and no amount of statistics from egg headed environmentalist anti-energy whackos you throw at me will not make any difference. For every statistic you dig up believe me I could do the same, but I'm not going to continue in this debate, because like the other poster said, those who believe will never be convinced otherwise. I'm going to go back to the more merrier drinking threads and what not.


I think this issue is a difficult one for many to accept , because it askes us to change some habits that are deep rooted in our daily life. It askes a lot of hard question on how we live , consumme and get about with our life.

One good question to ask is: what intrest those that say that climate change is an important issue that needs to be delt with and those who say that it is unimportant. What does the "wackos" and "egg headed environmentalists" have to gain with all this.

I am waiting for for the statitics that will prove the wackos wrong. I would really like them to be proven wrong. It would make my life a lot more simple.
 
Here is an interesting piece about science and scientifics:

Global Warming-- Signed, Sealed, and Delivered
Scientists agree: The Earth is warming, and human activities are the principal cause.
by Naomi Oreskes


An Op-Ed article in the Wall Street Journal a month ago claimed that a published study affirming the existence of a scientific consensus on the reality of global warming had been refuted. This charge was repeated again last week, in a hearing of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce.

I am the author of that study, which appeared two years ago in the journal Science, and I'm here to tell you that the consensus stands. The argument put forward in the Wall Street Journal was based on an Internet posting; it has not appeared in a peer-reviewed journal — the normal way to challenge an academic finding. (The Wall Street Journal didn't even get my name right!)

My study demonstrated that there is no significant disagreement within the scientific community that the Earth is warming and that human activities are the principal cause.

Papers that continue to rehash arguments that have already been addressed and questions that have already been answered will, of course, be rejected by scientific journals, and this explains my findings. Not a single paper in a large sample of peer-reviewed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003 refuted the consensus position, summarized by the National Academy of Sciences, that "most of the observed warming of the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations."

Since the 1950s, scientists have understood that greenhouse gases produced by burning fossil fuels could have serious effects on Earth's climate. When the 1980s proved to be the hottest decade on record, and as predictions of climate models started to come true, scientists increasingly saw global warming as cause for concern.

In 1988, the World Meteorological Assn. and the United Nations Environment Program joined forces to create the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change to evaluate the state of climate science as a basis for informed policy action. The panel has issued three assessments (1990, 1995, 2001), representing the combined expertise of 2,000 scientists from more than 100 countries, and a fourth report is due out shortly. Its conclusions — global warming is occurring, humans have a major role in it — have been ratified by scientists around the world in published scientific papers, in statements issued by professional scientific societies, and in reports of the National Academy of Sciences, the British Royal Society and many other national and royal academies of science worldwide. Even the Bush administration accepts the fundamental findings. As President Bush's science advisor, John Marburger III, said last year in a speech: "The climate is changing; the Earth is warming."

To be sure, there are a handful of scientists, including MIT professor Richard Lindzen, the author of the Wall Street Journal editorial, who disagree with the rest of the scientific community. To a historian of science like me, this is not surprising. In any scientific community, there are always some individuals who simply refuse to accept new ideas and evidence. This is especially true when the new evidence strikes at their core beliefs and values.

Earth scientists long believed that humans were insignificant in comparison with the vastness of geological time and the power of geophysical forces. For this reason, many were reluctant to accept that humans had become a force of nature, and it took decades for the present understanding to be achieved. Those few who refuse to accept it are not ignorant, but they are stubborn. They are not unintelligent, but they are stuck on details that cloud the larger issue. Scientific communities include tortoises and hares, mavericks and mules.

A historical example will help to make the point. In the 1920s, the distinguished Cambridge geophysicist Harold Jeffreys rejected the idea of continental drift on the grounds of physical impossibility. In the 1950s, geologists and geophysicists began to accumulate overwhelming evidence of the reality of continental motion, even though the physics of it was poorly understood. By the late 1960s, the theory of plate tectonics was on the road to near-universal acceptance.

Yet Jeffreys, by then Sir Harold, stubbornly refused to accept the new evidence, repeating his old arguments about the impossibility of the thing. He was a great man, but he had become a scientific mule. For a while, journals continued to publish Jeffreys' arguments, but after a while he had nothing new to say. He died denying plate tectonics. The scientific debate was over.

So it is with climate change today. As American geologist Harry Hess said in the 1960s about plate tectonics, one can quibble about the details, but the overall picture is clear.

Yet some climate-change deniers insist that the observed changes might be natural, perhaps caused by variations in solar irradiance or other forces we don't yet understand. Perhaps there are other explanations for the receding glaciers. But "perhaps" is not evidence.

The greatest scientist of all time, Isaac Newton, warned against this tendency more than three centuries ago. Writing in "Principia Mathematica" in 1687, he noted that once scientists had successfully drawn conclusions by "general induction from phenomena," then those conclusions had to be held as "accurately or very nearly true notwithstanding any contrary hypothesis that may be imagined…. "

Climate-change deniers can imagine all the hypotheses they like, but it will not change the facts nor "the general induction from the phenomena."

None of this is to say that there are no uncertainties left — there are always uncertainties in any live science. Agreeing about the reality and causes of current global warming is not the same as agreeing about what will happen in the future. There is continuing debate in the scientific community over the likely rate of future change: not "whether" but "how much" and "how soon." And this is precisely why we need to act today: because the longer we wait, the worse the problem will become, and the harder it will be to solve.

Naomi Oreskes is a history of science professor at UC San Diego. "

From: http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0724-28.htm
 
We really did not need the polar ice caps or all of those species. http://www.usatoday.com/weather/climate/2007-01-11-hansen-warming_x.htm?csp=34


The polar ice caps have been melting for 6,000 years. I'm pretty sure humans weren't producing greenhouse gases back then.

Hansen, who said he was not speaking for NASA, said that after the warming of the past three decades, the world is within 1°C of its warmest period in the past 400,000 years. He predicted that if greenhouse gas emissions continue at the same rate, the warming this century will approach 3°C, or about 5°F.

He forecast that such a change would eliminate up to half the species on Earth and would melt polar ice caps. Subsequently rising ocean levels would inundate Florida, most of Louisiana and much of the East Coast, Hansen said.

Hanson appeared before a Congressional committee in 1988 and gave his predictions on global warming for the next 10 years. His predictions were wrong by almost 200%. Appearing again in 1998, Hansan explained his error by saying long term climate predicitions are impossible.

Given his track record, I wouldn't put too much faith in anything he says.
 
Ok I'm back, sorry I couldn't find the drinking thread.

Ok so for argument sake, say your right, and man is causing mass global warming, so what are you going to do about it? Get rid of your car? Start riding a bicycle? Bikes have rubber tires, making rubber tires has to go through a petroleum process that causes global warming.

Get rid of the power plants and sit in the dark, or use candles? Candles emit emissions that can cause global warming along your line of thinking.

See what I mean, the argument is a little silly if you ask me.

Now again don't get me wrong, I would love to see hydrogen cars develop and get rid of most oil based internal combustion engines, hopefully that will happen. But until then I'm not going to get rid of my car because I'm afriad to death that I personally am contributing to man made global warming.:rolleyes1
 
The polar ice caps have been melting for 6,000 years. I'm pretty sure humans weren't producing greenhouse gases back then.



Hanson appeared before a Congressional committee in 1988 and gave his predictions on global warming for the next 10 years. His predictions were wrong by almost 200%. Appearing again in 1998, Hansan explained his error by saying long term climate predicitions are impossible.

Given his track record, I wouldn't put too much faith in anything he says.

Exactemundo.:thumbsup2
 
He forecast that such a change would eliminate up to half the species on Earth and would melt polar ice caps. Subsequently rising ocean levels would inundate Florida, most of Louisiana and much of the East Coast, Hansen said.


Wait, let me understand this... the laws of physics will change due to global warming?

Take a glass. Fill it with ice. Pour water to the very top. When the ice melts, will it overflow?

So, tell me how on God's soon to be much greener earth, iceburgs melting are going to rise the already displaced water any more?

And you trust this "scientist's" science? :rotfl2:
 



Wait, let me understand this... the laws of physics will change due to global warming?

Take a glass. Fill it with ice. Pour water to the very top. When the ice melts, will it overflow?

So, tell me how on God's soon to be much greener earth, iceburgs melting are going to rise the already displaced water any more?

And you trust this "scientist's" science? :rotfl2:

Still yet another exactemundo!:thumbsup2
 



Wait, let me understand this... the laws of physics will change due to global warming?

Take a glass. Fill it with ice. Pour water to the very top. When the ice melts, will it overflow?

So, tell me how on God's soon to be much greener earth, iceburgs melting are going to rise the already displaced water any more?

And you trust this "scientist's" science? :rotfl2:

You are doing this in the wrong direction. The real experiment should be: fill a glass with water , then suspemd melting ice over it. Will the galss overflow once the ice as melt in the already full glass of water...
 
So, tell me how on God's soon to be much greener earth, iceburgs melting are going to rise the already displaced water any more?

Um...because the iceburgs are HIGHER than sea level.

Your example of the ice cubes displacing water is ONLY when the cubes are submerged in water (not above it as in the case of an iceburg) errr...or am I the only one here who watches CSI: Vegas?
 
Um...because the iceburgs are HIGHER than sea level.

Your example of the ice cubes displacing water is ONLY when the cubes are submerged in water (not above it as in the case of an iceburg) errr...or am I the only one here who watches CSI: Vegas?

Ok so I demand that you and all others on this thread that believe in man-made global warming to give away your cars TODAY, otherwise you are a hypocrite and contributing to global warming.:cool1:
 
But this fact only takes it so far. It does fit the "evil American" template well though.

For the treated municipal water , it my mistake.

I did not post these statistic in a "lets attack evil Us" way. Canada is not doing to good in many instances, and my province is far from being the greenest in the country !


"

Ok so for argument sake, say your right, and man is causing mass global warming, so what are you going to do about it? Get rid of your car? Start riding a bicycle? Bikes have rubber tires, making rubber tires has to go through a petroleum process that causes global warming.

Get rid of the power plants and sit in the dark, or use candles? Candles emit emissions that can cause global warming along your line of thinking.

See what I mean, the argument is a little silly if you ask me."



This is bit like saying: we are always going to be sick , or we will alway going to die , so why not stop making medecine , do reserche , or stop smoking.

It is like saying: my ceiling is leaking , I am going to move to another house.


You just exposed abunch of problems without contaplating that there could be a solution to all these problems. If 50 years ago someone would have said: hearts are going to fail there is nothing we can do about it , nobody would have started to performed hart transplant !


It is not by going to the xtrem ridicule of every argument ( use candles? rubber tires ?) that things will evolve: produce better tires , better light bulbs , novel ways to heat and cool our houses. We will always produce goods. The question is are we willing to examinate how we produce them , and how we use them.
 





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